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[Endgame Spoilers] Eothas, Magran and The Queen That Was

Eyestabber

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Can someone PLEASE explain to me the relationship between Eothas, Magran and Woedica? It's heavilly implied (but not really CONFIRMED) that Waidwen really was Eothas, and that Magran helped build the godhammer. But how does Woedica fit in all this? Am I missing something? Durance says something about Magran being manipulated by the Queen That Was, but for what purpose? How does killing Eothas help Woedica? And WTF was Eothas trying to accomplish during the Saint's War!? And why does the other gods want to stop Thaos, since he is the guy protecting their dirty little secret? Aren't they afraid that Thaos might "spill the beans" if cornered?
 

AN4RCHID

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I think it was suggested that Waidwen was marching on the Dyrwood to stop Woedica from using the Engwythian machines to steal souls. Magran seems to have some loyalty to Dyrwood so she unknowingly protected Woedica by defending against the Readcerans.
 

evdk

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I think it was suggested that Waidwen was marching on the Dyrwood to stop Woedica from using the Engwythian machines to steal souls. Magran seems to have some loyalty to Dyrwood so she unknowingly protected Woedica by defending against the Readcerans.
Durance claims Magran was working with Woedica at that time.

Also other gods want to stop Thaos because his goal is to power boost Woedica to become the ruler of the gods (and presumably have her revenge on them for deposing her previously) which they obviously want to stop from happening.
 
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Eyestabber

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So the zealots from Readceras were actually trying to PREVENT the hollowborn crisis? Well, makes sense, considering Eothas is (was) a Good god.

But why the f*** is Woedica such an evil cunt? I mean, she is supposed to be the goddess of JUSTICE FFS. How is stealing souls from children in ANY WAY just? Maybe I'm just failing to see some ambiguity here, but it kindda seems like Woedica should've been called the "Goddess of FUCK YOU, GIMME POWER!" Justice, Oaths and whatnot become some sort of joke considering her cruelty AND complete disregard for the rules. Just my 2 cents...

Only reasonable god I found on my playtrough was Berath. All others are complete and utter assholes...
 

Atchodas

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This is the point in the story and in PoE as a game overall where like nobody gives a fuck anymore and just wants to finish it so they can bash it on any of the forums out there . Last few hours of PoE are the worst imo , by that time you know : this is not getting any better :(
 

Tigranes

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Woedica plays out the familiar mythological trope: the God(dess) who disrupts the balance of power in the pantheon and is ostracised for this crime. From the pantheon power struggle point of view it's a straightforward story. Woedica wants to be Big Cock, everybody says hell no. Thaos supports Woedica - perhaps in a diversion from his original mission, perhaps not - and begins the Hollowborn plot as a way to gather souls for Woedica's freedom / Big Cock Power-Up.

The problem in the plot POV is that we don't know shit about Woedica. It would have made a lot more sense if Thaos' plot was somehow more directly connected to the Legacy/Hollowborn, or if the plot made Woedica a more relevant character in any way. It is a cool revelation that Waidwen might actually have been marching to prevent the legacy, but it's not enough to fill the disconnect.
 

lurker3000

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Here is my recollection:
1) There are no gods.
2) The gods are created by the Engwythian and Thoas is the one in charge of creating Woedica.
3) Thaos leads the charge against the people who do not believe in the new gods and/or know they are created by man (the elvish lady from flashbacks). Lots of time passes.
4) Woedica is the leader of the gods until the other gods overthrow her. I think her face is scarred or something. More time passes.
5) Her chosen people are the Arydn Empire (or whatever its called), the people the Drywood revolted against them.
6) She needs souls to reclaim her power and sends Thaos back home to collect them. This is conveniently in a location that she hates (Drywood) because of the revolt and animancy which is a science that will eventually reveal that the gods were created. Not sure about the animacy part.
7) Thoas activates the old soul gathering machines that grab souls before they can be returned to babies (thus the hollowborn) and focuses them at the location where Woedica was created.
8) Eothas figures out what is happening and comes to earth to stop it. He knows he cannot just show up in Drywood so he lands in Readcria(?) to gather an army to marsh south.
9) Woedica tricks Magran into stopping Eothas.
10) Magran either figures out she has been tricked or is scared that humans know to much so she kills anyone involved with the Godhammer. I think it was that she realized that she had gotten played and didn't want anyone alive to know what happened.
11) PC arrives in the region.
 

lurker3000

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It would have made a lot more sense if Thaos' plot was somehow more directly connected to the Legacy/Hollowborn, or if the plot made Woedica a more relevant character in any way.

I don't understand this. Thaos's plot is 100% about the hollowborn. He is stealing their souls to empower Woedica. And none of the gods are relevant in a matreial way. They are supposed to work though mortal vessels which act out their will. Woedica is relevant because Thoas worships/serves/created her.
 

Rivmusique

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Only played once, so not sure of anything, but I don't know about Eothas solely wanting to stop Woedica. I got the impression he moved against all the other god's worshippers, putting him and his followers above them all. Woedica recognizes this could fuck her up (Leaden Key wouldn't last long, I suppose), so convinces Magran ending him is fine (she probably wanted it done, as Waidwan followers were attacking her nation, but held off because they're not meant to attack each other. Permission from Woedica, their old leader and JUSTICE MASTER, has weight, I guess). I believe this because if Eothas just wanted Woedica ended, why not tell they other gods? They seem to talk to each other, and they're all a bit suspicious of Woedica. So I reckon he must have wanted something more out of his play, i.e. lower other gods followers, increase his own (though, do the gods they get any power from worship in this setting? Maybe not ... ).

I also think Magran always wanted the Godhammer to destroy its creators as well as the target, as she couldn't have people around who knew how to kill gods, or have it out that they learned from her.

Leaden Key (which is pretty much just Thaos, the rest blindly follow orders from the top) then get started on the Hollowborn/give power to Woedica scheme, as they realise there's an opportunity for it, as everyone will blame the recent God murder. They want to do this both as an opportunity to discredit further animancy research, which might result in god creation secrets coming out, and to bring Woedica back to power, as having the God that loves things to remain as they are in charge would make their jobs easier.
 

Commissar Draco

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But why the f*** is Woedica such an evil cunt? I mean, she is supposed to be the goddess of JUSTICE FFS. .

Its actually most simple question about this shity plot to answer; She is portrayed in game as EC cause liberals like :balance: hate all figures which personify tradition and authority. Just look at his version of Kwa Dyrwood where only the Evul Aristocrats from Metropoly were for slavery and noble and pure colonists after gaining independence didn't went and slaughter natives to take their lands like their real live models did... and this is the reason too why the Evul Bad Boss in this game is white Older Man with beard... which is another symbol of hated among l1berals Patriarchy.
 
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ArchAngel

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Old Nua was betrayed and killed by his own people while doing big Animancy tests. Could Thaos also be behind that? He says in last battle he has been behind many purges and done atrocities to stop animancy.
 

Eyestabber

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But why the f*** is Woedica such an evil cunt? I mean, she is supposed to be the goddess of JUSTICE FFS. .

Its actually most simple question about this shity plot to answer; She is portrayed in game as EC cause liberals like :balance: hate all figures which personify tradition and authority. Just look at his version of Kwa Dyrwood where the Evul Aristocrats from Metropoly was for slavery and colonists after gaining independence didn't went and slaughter natives to take their lands like their real live models did... and this is the reason why the Evul guy in this game is white Older Man with beard... which is anothher symbol of hated among l1berals Patriarchy.

They missed the opportunity of making Skaen the big hero, then. Although, that DOES explain the silly dialogue with the Skaenite priest: "understanding" his actions but saying "hey, this isn't cause for violence, bro". The whole skaenite thing was REALLY dumb, they sacrificed a lot of peasants in order to punish a noble dude who was a FOREIGNER and never had the opportunity to PERSONALLY oppress their asses. Also explains why the Elven lady is just a militant atheist.

I guess you are right: shitty ideology makes for a shitty plot.
 

DeepOcean

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I just thought the way they portray religion and science animancy on this game really offensive to both parties. All people that do scientific work would turn on doctors Mengeles or are idiotic fools that need an ignorant strong man like the duc to tell them what to do and the religious people are duped morons that believe on fake gods. Actually, is there someone that isn't a moron on PoE's world? Thaos seems to get away with alot of shit because the world suffers from a severe case of Mass Effect acute idiotitis where the protagonist is the only one "smart" enough to figure out what the fuck is going on and by "smart" I mean invading the basement of a church of Woedica right under First Fires. Sure... Thaos is an expert of deception.:lol:

Common... a machine that has a huge reach and power to fuck with the babies souls of a huge area and is activated by the souls of three clowns? Is soul energy atomic? And you could make a soul atomic bomb by sacrificing three dudes? :lol: Hey... if soul magic is atomic, why don't Thaos get some souls and don't have the spell "atomic soul bomb player fucker"?:lol: Where do the babies soul come from by the way? How is that supposed to work? Soul radio waves and the machines throw interference on the signal?:lol: I'm atheist but the way Pillows "discuss" gods, faith and science is just dumb. It is like a tumblr liberal decided to make a fantasy story to discuss religion, its better written than fanfiction but I wouldn't pay 40 dollars for it like I did.
 

ArchAngel

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I think animancy and souls are not real science, it is more like science through magic. In a world with mages and druids nobody will use normal tools to explore things like souls.
The machines were also made with magic and only use souls as energy to run.
 

DeepOcean

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I think animancy and souls are not real science, it is more like science through magic. In a world with mages and druids nobody will use normal tools to explore things like souls.
The machines were also made with magic and only use souls as energy to run.
That would be an okay explanation if souls magic was on the background. Something you see everywhere but not really what the story is about. There are a few things on fantasy that are better not to bring much attention to it and magic is one of them. You once bring attention to magic and you open a can of worms. Having machines that fucks the souls of babies everywhere and can be activated by the soul of three dudes is just provoking alot of questions and don't provoke too much questions you can't or is not willing to answer or, at least, spend a good amount of time speculating about.

Take shadowrun for example, mana is a substance that come from the life force of people, plants and animals. As the planet earth there is alot of life, so there is alot of mana and channeling mana you can cast magic. During the ages, the levels of mana go up and down and when it goes down, magic stop working and powerful magical things have to hibernate to survive on such enviroment. It is a bullshit excuse for magic as any other if you pick it appart but shadowrun authors are smart enough to not bring this too much focus. "Yes, there is magic but don't pay too much attention to that... see the cool twisted spirit I created for you to fight with."

They shouldn't EVER had give away the nature of the gods, once you do that, you bring their nature into focus... ohh boy... that is another can of worms if you are too hasty and vague with explanations... worse you imply that animancy created them and they are made of souls... what brings the nature of souls into focus... bad, bad idea. Gods, magic and other supernatural things, you can have fun with them that is why fantasy exist for anyway but the plot should avoid revealing anything about them and giving away the nature of the gods. Worse, they did that on the first game of their franchise... that is a BAD idea. If ever I buy Pillows 2, I won't play ever more with a priest class because they detonated any mistery about the gods and made them dull as fuck.
 

Angthoron

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I think animancy and souls are not real science, it is more like science through magic. In a world with mages and druids nobody will use normal tools to explore things like souls.
The machines were also made with magic and only use souls as energy to run.
That would be an okay explanation if souls magic was on the background. Something you see everywhere but not really what the story is about. There are a few things on fantasy that are better not to bring much attention to it and magic is one of them. You once bring attention to magic and you open a can of worms. Having machines that fucks the souls of babies everywhere and can be activated by the soul of three dudes is just provoking alot of questions and don't provoke too much questions you can't or is not willing to answer or, at least, spend a good amount of time speculating about.

Take shadowrun for example, mana is a substance that come from the life force of people, plants and animals. As the planet earth there is alot of life, so there is alot of mana and channeling mana you can cast magic. During the ages, the levels of mana go up and down and when it goes down, magic stop working and powerful magical things have to hibernate to survive on such enviroment. It is a bullshit excuse for magic as any other if you pick it appart but shadowrun authors are smart enough to not bring this too much focus. "Yes, there is magic but don't pay too much attention to that... see the cool twisted spirit I created for you to fight with."

They shouldn't EVER had give away the nature of the gods, once you do that, you bring their nature into focus... ohh boy... that is another can of worms if you are too hasty and vague with explanations... worse you imply that animancy created them and they are made of souls... what brings the nature of souls into focus... bad, bad idea. Gods, magic and other supernatural things, you can have fun with them that is why fantasy exist for anyway but the plot should avoid revealing anything about them and giving away the nature of the gods. Worse, they did that on the first game of their franchise... that is a BAD idea. If ever I buy Pillows 2, I won't play ever more with a priest class because they detonated any mistery about the gods and made them dull as fuck.

Well, it's actually very much fine to explain and systematize magic. Problem is, as you said, you need to spend some actual time designing it and making sure there are no retarded plot holes. Fuck, give it to some giggling stoner frat boys once you think you're done just to be on the safe side. Common problem in Fantasy is that the writers goes "Fuck, I don't know, it's magic, fuck off" and then keeps on using it as deus ex machina for everything - refer to Eragon for a wonderful example of this. Magic can make sense though - you just need to invest a minimal amount of effort to set it up as a logical piece of the setting.

Similarly, giving away the nature of the gods isn't a problem, the problem is that the story does absolutely nothing with this mad twist. So what if they were manufactured? What makes this special? Why do we care? In fact, our party doesn't care one bit about this revelation, everyone nods along and says that yeah, they figured it was like that. Okay, and...? I guess if some of the characters would say, "We'll make our own gods, with blackjack and hookers, then!" or "What right do they have to dictate us, then?" or ANYTHING to protest this nature, the reveal would be justified. If only there was a point.

But nope - there is no point, that's the point. Apparently the message is, "Nobody actually cares if gods do not exist or were grown in a test tube, w/e". There's no payoff, there's no climax, and there's not even a setup for things to come. Only Durance says that he'll kill them off, but that's because he's our lovable mad sheep-shagger. And even then, he only wants to kill the "gods" that slighted him, not because they're all phonies, but because they fucked him over. What did this reveal accomplish? If there were a reveal about Woedica going mad due to some programming error, some Y2K bug, and that it's only a matter of time before others get it too, okay, that's kinda interesting, maybe. Maybe. If there's something that suggests a threat from the artificiality angle (destroy all humans?), then it's maybe something. If there's a promise of greatness for mankind through development of animancy and guidance of artificial gods, then there's something. Or if the "gods" had found - or developed - a "devil", or an actual devil. I don't know. SOMETHING! Something to make their "special" pantheon be meaningful.

But there's fucking nothing. Absolutely nothing to work with. A Shyamalan twist for the sake of having a twist.
 

Gord

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But there's fucking nothing. Absolutely nothing to work with. A Shyamalan twist for the sake of having a twist.

I think thats something of an exaggeration.
It's true that they don't do much with the discovery, but one should keep in mind that the game is over about 5 minutes later. And an adventuring party that probably has 2 priests/priest-like chars on it will hardly go from total devotion to enlightened acceptance within a few minutes of hearing about what's going on.

The real question, imo, is what they will do with it in the future - will they pick it up again in the expansion?
If there's a company that should be able to do something with the premise, it's Obsidian one would think.
 

Angthoron

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But there's fucking nothing. Absolutely nothing to work with. A Shyamalan twist for the sake of having a twist.

I think thats something of an exaggeration.
It's true that they don't do much with the discovery, but one should keep in mind that the game is over about 5 minutes later. And an adventuring party that probably has 2 priests/priest-like chars on it will hardly go from total devotion to enlightened acceptance within a few minutes of hearing about what's going on.

The real question, imo, is what they will do with it in the future - will they pick it up again in the expansion?
If there's a company that should be able to do something with the premise, it's Obsidian one would think.
It isn't an exaggeration. The reveal serves no purpose for this title, and it builds up no interest in the series, and we only have this game to judge by. What makes this twist interesting? Why could this twist not wait til another installment in the series instead? Why does the game drop a major plot point that goes nowhere and abruptly ends? Is this a teaser? A cliffhanger? A pay-off to an important plotline? Nope. It's just there. It's not interesting, it's not shocking, it's dropped in the audience's lap and taken out of it just as quickly, without any chance for the audience to form an opinion or a connection to this.

Basically: Why should we care at this point? What purpose did the demystification of the gods carry? What expectations does this plot twist set up for the sequel?
 

Eyestabber

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But there's fucking nothing. Absolutely nothing to work with. A Shyamalan twist for the sake of having a twist.

I think thats something of an exaggeration.
It's true that they don't do much with the discovery, but one should keep in mind that the game is over about 5 minutes later. And an adventuring party that probably has 2 priests/priest-like chars on it will hardly go from total devotion to enlightened acceptance within a few minutes of hearing about what's going on.

The real question, imo, is what they will do with it in the future - will they pick it up again in the expansion?
If there's a company that should be able to do something with the premise, it's Obsidian one would think.
It isn't an exaggeration. The reveal serves no purpose for this title, and it builds up no interest in the series, and we only have this game to judge by. What makes this twist interesting? Why could this twist not wait til another installment in the series instead? Why does the game drop a major plot point that goes nowhere and abruptly ends? Is this a teaser? A cliffhanger? A pay-off to an important plotline? Nope. It's just there. It's not interesting, it's not shocking, it's dropped in the audience's lap and taken out of it just as quickly, without any chance for the audience to form an opinion or a connection to this.

Basically: Why should we care at this point? What purpose did the demystification of the gods carry? What expectations does this plot twist set up for the sequel?

It's obviosly just a hook for a future expansion. Maybe the expansion will allow you to create your own fucking god, who knows at this point?
 

Rostere

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There's a lot of talk about some kind of agreement between the gods when you speak with them in Twin Elms. One of the questions you can ask is "why do immensely powerful beings need my help to stop Thaos" - you are pretty much told that they cannot by agreement do such things such as gather armies and incarnate themselves in the physical world to gather power, although they do not explicitly say what the punishment is. Remember that ending strife caused by religion was one of the reasons for creating the gods to begin with.

Obviously, Eothas incarnating himself and emerging as the leader of the totalitarian state of Readceras is a a complete and utter breach of protocol. Now, here is where you can have divergent theories:
  1. Eothas simply wanted to make himself the sole worshipped god, and thought he could achieve this by entering the physical world permanently. Unlikely IMO, especially since gods in PoE unlike gods in FR appear to draw no power from their amount of worshipers. Unless he himself knew the details of Woedica's upcoming soul-sucking operation and wanted to usurp it for himself, of course.
  2. Eothas knew of Woedica's plan and wanted to spoil it. However, the other gods regarded Eothas' crime as worse than Woedica's, and thus went on to kill him. The gods may or may not have known the full extent of Woedica's plan - remember that in the game we are first presented with the soul-sucking machines as just removing people's souls. Only later are we informed that there is in fact a network of nodes which can transport the souls to some unknown location - heavily implied to be Sun-in-Shadow later on. Now, some gods might have believed that the full extent of Woedica's plan was simply to just do soul fuckery and blame animancy, and that's it. MAYBE, and this is IMO more likely, the entire soul-sucking thing was a plot which all the gods had agreed to, to create a new god replacing Eothas in the pantheon after his demise. But about the time the game takes place the gods are sure that Thaos will instead funnel the souls to Woedica. Remember that the gods are ambivalent towards animancy, the part they don't like is where Woedica is given all the souls.
  3. Eothas was secretly (I would assume, since otherwise we might have known) in league with Woedica. Remember that the entire soul-sucking business only started AFTER St. Waidwen (that is, Eothas) had been killed. Remember also that Woedica lacks her former power by the events of St. Waidwen. Now suppose Woedica talked to Eothas (possibly the god with the most wordly power), convincing him that with animancy - a field which the Dyrwood is leading (maybe because the entire place is built on Engwithan ruins) - would lead to people realizing that the gods were created by men, or maybe to people creating their own pantheons. Woedica convinces Eothas to incarnate as St. Waidwen, occupy the Dyrwood using the full extent of his godly powers, and ban animancy forever. This is not that far-fetched since other gods such as Galawain appears to have told the Glanfathans to keep people the fuck away from Engwithan ruins, in order that they won't learn Engwithan secrets of animancy.
There are of course more things which might make one or more of these explanations more likely. For example, consider what the gods want to do with the souls. Rymrgand/Skaen/Ondra wants to grind them down to nothing. Berath wants to return them to the cycle. Hylea wants to give them back to the Hollowborn. These all represent in some sense a return to the status quo. It would make zero sense for any of these gods to steal the souls only to return to the same state as before (possibly with the exception of Rymrgand - but his exact relation to entropy is the subject of another post). Wael's solution is also somewhat a return to the status quo, or at least it presumably does not favour any particular god.

Now Galawain, Abydon and Magran wants to use the souls to "strengthen the Dyrwood". This is the unique solution which represents active meddling in the affairs of mortals, and partisanship on behalf of some factions. It can be argued then that these would have had an active interest in parts of Thaos' plans coming to fruitition, so that they could usurp it themselves in the end.

Eh, there's really tons to be said about the story of the gods in the timeline in PoE. Can't fit everything into a reasonable post on here.
 
Unwanted
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Knowing the names of the gods is a spoilers?

'Kay. I'm starting to understand the reason behind your given tag...

Opening two threads in the same day about the same subject already discussed in other threads will bring you one fairly quickly, aspiring shitposter.
 

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