Equipment Familiarity giving bonuses

[soggie]

Just to clarify, I'm using a point-buy based system where you receive and assign development points to your stats on every increase of experience level. It is NOT a use-based system.

But lately, I've been thinking of adding a layer of use-based system on top of my character system, and here's how it works.

A character is using a 10mm pistol, and kills thousands of rats with it. When the character has done a total of 1000 HP damage on that pistol, he gains a familiarity level on that gun, which provides a +1 bonus to his combat rolls. He does another cumulative 1000 HP worth of damage with that gun and end up with another +1 bonus to his combat rolls.

Then he finds a 5.56mm assault rifle, and equips it. Even though the assault rifle and the pistol shares the same weapon skill (small guns), he loses that +2 combat roll bonus because he is unfamiliar with the assault rifle, and have to repeat that process all over again.

Thus, you create a dilemma when switching equipments. Does changing to that bigger and obviously badder gun make combat easier? Is the sacrifice on my familiarity with my old weapon worth it?

I'm even thinking of giving special moves for high familiarity levels on unique firearms like speed reload, zero jamming chances, double taps, rapid target acquisition and so forth.

Same thing with melee weapons, doctor kits, repair kits and so on.

Given that familiarity levels only work with non-perishable equipment, what do you guys think?

Good idea? Unnecessary layer of complexity? Or?

 

[Sonic The Hedgehog]

I like the idea. However, rather than give a damage stat boost why not a use value boost. For example, the machine gun does more damage but there's a standard equipping time or roll time for the first attack. Since you were using the pistol many times before your typical equipping time or roll time for the pistol is reduced. So if one enemy surprises you and you have to draw or fire your weapon, if you use the pistol instead of the machine gun, you'll draw that up much faster and get an early shot off or a first shot where you wouldn't have with the machine gun.

Or give higher chances for critical hits.

Also, make such a thing graphically implied but don't mention it in the game world. For example, make the draw or firing of the gun unusually fast and skillful. Have a graphic representation of the familiarity boost.

You could also incorporate story or factional boosts within the gameworld. If you slayed a billion rats with the same gun and you hoist that gun people will get a new impression of you as a billion rat killer. On a more important level, if you killed plenty of people with a certain gun then not only you but the gun gets famous, increasing its value and perhaps influencing somebody who wouldn't be influenced necessarily.

If your gameworld is structured like fallout in size and scope I see these things being easy to implement

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

I like the idea. However, rather than give a damage stat boost why not a use value boost. For example, the machine gun does more damage but there's a standard equipping time or roll time for the first attack. Since you were using the pistol many times before your typical equipping time or roll time for the pistol is reduced. So if one enemy surprises you and you have to draw or fire your weapon, if you use the pistol instead of the machine gun, you'll draw that up much faster and get an early shot off or a first shot where you wouldn't have with the machine gun.

Or give higher chances for critical hits.

Also, make such a thing graphically implied but don't mention it in the game world. For example, make the draw or firing of the gun unusually fast and skillful. Have a graphic representation of the familiarity boost.

You could also incorporate story or factional boosts within the gameworld. If you slayed a billion rats with the same gun and you hoist that gun people will get a new impression of you as a billion rat killer. On a more important level, if you killed plenty of people with a certain gun then not only you but the gun gets famous, increasing its value and perhaps influencing somebody who wouldn't be influenced necessarily.

If your gameworld is structured like fallout in size and scope I see these things being easy to implement

I like that idea. Why do you need to hunt down the sword of awesomeness while your regular sword kills 10,000 goblins and becomes it's own sword of awesomeness. I also like the familiarity, but maybe a name change for the sword, from Iron Sword to Goblin Slayer or something. It's mainly a cosmetic difference, but if it has a reaction in the game world, I think that is double plus good.

 

[Sonic The Hedgehog]

Bow and Arrow special: Increased speed, chance for critical kill hit or noise reduction. (Your game is in a jungle so I figured)

 

[Sonic The Hedgehog]

I like that idea. Why do you need to hunt down the sword of awesomeness while your regular sword kills 10,000 goblins and becomes it's own sword of awesomeness. I also like the familiarity, but maybe a name change for the sword, from Iron Sword to Goblin Slayer or something. It's mainly a cosmetic difference, but if it has a reaction in the game world, I think that is double plus good.

I like that a lot.

I also like the concept of somebody becoming good enough with a weapon that they can dispatch people easily who are weak or of low level and don't require the more expensive and more difficult weaponry. A skilled Man with No Name will only have to pull out his standard pistol to kill a drunkard attempting to rape a whore and won't have to waste shotgun bullets or skills he would save for the big showdown with the Indian raiders.

 

[Squiggle]

Perhaps instead of having the "familiarity bonus" increasing after a certain amount of damage it could be something you invest skill points into on leveling up. Or maybe every two or three levels you get a familiarity bonus point to spend or something.

Or maybe instead of damage you just have a certain number of hits or attacks.

Either way I like the idea.

 

[soggie]

I like the idea. However, rather than give a damage stat boost why not a use value boost. For example, the machine gun does more damage but there's a standard equipping time or roll time for the first attack. Since you were using the pistol many times before your typical equipping time or roll time for the pistol is reduced. So if one enemy surprises you and you have to draw or fire your weapon, if you use the pistol instead of the machine gun, you'll draw that up much faster and get an early shot off or a first shot where you wouldn't have with the machine gun.

Or give higher chances for critical hits.

Also, make such a thing graphically implied but don't mention it in the game world. For example, make the draw or firing of the gun unusually fast and skillful. Have a graphic representation of the familiarity boost.

You could also incorporate story or factional boosts within the gameworld. If you slayed a billion rats with the same gun and you hoist that gun people will get a new impression of you as a billion rat killer. On a more important level, if you killed plenty of people with a certain gun then not only you but the gun gets famous, increasing its value and perhaps influencing somebody who wouldn't be influenced necessarily.

If your gameworld is structured like fallout in size and scope I see these things being easy to implement

I like the quick draw bonus. Also, maybe weapon familiarity can give you a bonus on snap shots - really fast shots that sacrifices accuracy for a higher chance to resist a counter fire check.

 

[Kriechgebüsch]

In the end the player will decide to use the most effective weapon anyways but would feel bad for wasting points or experience on that old weapon they're not using anymore. A solution to this would be either getting familiar with a certain type of weapon (e.g. revolver, dagger etc.), so you can still upgrade and dont invest into a dead end or to cap the familiarity you can reach with a particular gun pretty low so the player can still reach the maximum skill with their new weapon if they decide to switch.

 

[soggie]

In the end the player will decide to use the most effective weapon anyways but would feel bad for wasting points or experience on that old weapon they're not using anymore. A solution to this would be either getting familiar with a certain type of weapon (e.g. revolver, dagger etc.), so you can still upgrade and dont invest into a dead end or to cap the familiarity you can reach with a particular gun pretty low so the player can still reach the maximum skill with their new weapon if they decide to switch.

First, nobody wastes any points or experience on weapons. It's just that the longer you use a weapon, the more talents/special abilities/bonuses you unlock from that weapon through familiarity levels. And the way to gain these levels is to kill stuff with the weapon.

Next, I think this is more of a design and pacing than anything. What's the difference between a 10mm pistol and a .357 magnum? Not much other than damage and accuracy, which the latter is marginally superior. Given in normal circumstances, most player would switch to the magnum without much of a second thought.

But with the familiarity mechanism, the game creates a dilemma - switch to the magnum and lose that cool double tap ability and +2 combat roll bonus, or stick with the 10mm pistol until something significantly superior comes by? Or use the magnum first to dispatch off lesser foes to build familiarity and keep the 10mm for harder fights just in case?

Add to the possible mechanics of NPCs identifying the player through his weapons (10mm gunsligner of death) and the possibility to personalize weapons through carvings and decorations, it'll add an interesting roleplay opportunity for the player.

 

[Angthoron]

That sounds like a good idea, but in order to keep the player thinking and having to make serious decisions, you have to make the bonuses fairly significant as the familiarity increases - a rather dangerous line to walk. On one hand, you'll have a possible chance of making a weapon so good that there'll be no point in upgrading it ever again, on the other hand, the bonus might be so insignificant that the player will simply ignore it and grab the next best thing without a second thought.

 

[soggie]

That sounds like a good idea, but in order to keep the player thinking and having to make serious decisions, you have to make the bonuses fairly significant as the familiarity increases - a rather dangerous line to walk. On one hand, you'll have a possible chance of making a weapon so good that there'll be no point in upgrading it ever again, on the other hand, the bonus might be so insignificant that the player will simply ignore it and grab the next best thing without a second thought.

I agree. It's down to balancing. The bonuses must be reasonable enough to justify the continued usage of the same weapon in comparison to other weapons currently available at the stage of the story.

For me, I'll group the weapons into three tiers - noob, advanced and master. Each weapon type's max familiarity level will provide a powerful ability relative to the tier that they are grouped in.

Like I mentioned in my previous post, mastering a 10mm pistol is going to seriously rock in the beginning stages of the game, but once the player gets access to better weaponry like .223 pistols, the 10mm pistol is redundant even with the special abilities. Worse, some of the higher tiered weapons might have the same familiarity abilities, except they get it on earlier familiarity levels.

No point having the player stick to a particular gun for the entire game.

 

[mondblut]

Familiarity should affect expertise-related derived stats (such as parrying, speed etc), not the raw damage. And it works better with (percentile) flat rate, not rough thresholds.

I believe some tactical games (JA2? BE5?) had this as a hidden stat. It was lost for good the moment you move a weapon in question from the hands slot though, not a nice idea. If there is a familiarity decay, it should build up with time of neglect.

 

[soggie]

Familiarity should affect expertise-related derived stats (such as parrying, speed etc), not the raw damage. And it works better with (percentile) flat rate, not rough thresholds.

I believe some tactical games (JA2? BE5?) had this as a hidden stat. It was lost for good the moment you move a weapon in question from the hands slot though, not a nice idea. If there is a familiarity decay, it should build up with time of neglect.

I'm thinking familiarity should be different across weapon models, and unique weapons of the same model should not share the familiarity level.

Example:

10mm pistol
.45 tactical pistol
VD's .45 tactical pistol

All three weapons above belong to the sidearm stat, but have their own familiarity levels.

Familiarity decay would then be calculated by days, like -5 xp per day. This is offset by using said weapon to kill stuff, which would add to the xp counter for that particular weapon itself.

And one more thing... should the familiarity xp counter be made visible for the player? Is that information overkill or is it a nice dangling carrot?

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

Familiarity should affect expertise-related derived stats (such as parrying, speed etc), not the raw damage. And it works better with (percentile) flat rate, not rough thresholds.

I believe some tactical games (JA2? BE5?) had this as a hidden stat. It was lost for good the moment you move a weapon in question from the hands slot though, not a nice idea. If there is a familiarity decay, it should build up with time of neglect.

I'm thinking familiarity should be different across weapon models, and unique weapons of the same model should not share the familiarity level.

Example:

10mm pistol
.45 tactical pistol
VD's .45 tactical pistol

All three weapons above belong to the sidearm stat, but have their own familiarity levels.

Familiarity decay would then be calculated by days, like -5 xp per day. This is offset by using said weapon to kill stuff, which would add to the xp counter for that particular weapon itself.

And one more thing... should the familiarity xp counter be made visible for the player? Is that information overkill or is it a nice dangling carrot?

Not visible. Min/maxing should be avoided at all costs when possible.

 

[mondblut]

Exact digits are better hidden. General reminders like "X is very/a little/not at all familiar with this weapon" are welcome.

And it definitely should be unique for each instance of an item. There are no two long swords which are completely identical, and even mass produced firearms each have their quirks. Hey, the marksman rifles are selected among the same general issue rifles based on shooting tests.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I believe some tactical games (JA2? BE5?) had this as a hidden stat. It was lost for good the moment you move a weapon in question from the hands slot though, not a nice idea. If there is a familiarity decay, it should build up with time of neglect.

Silent Storm had both. Familiarity (open stat though, not hidden) and slow decay. It didn't matter much though, took a long time to build and didn't make an average gun better than a good gun. So you still swapped when a better gun came. And once you had the top guns, game was over too soon for it to have any significance.
It's an interesting idea but only for a very long winded game. A series of twelve or twenty missions just don't cut it. It would take JA2's scope, at least, for it to really matter. Otherwise it's just fapping material.

 

[DraQ]

Exact digits are better hidden. General reminders like "X is very/a little/not at all familiar with this weapon" are welcome.

:shock:
...


You are not mondblut.

 

[mondblut]

You are not mondblut.

mondbluts don't like percentiles, mondbluts like clean and sharp "you get +1 from familiarity". And since percentiles work better for this, I choose a discretized output.

 

[soggie]

You are not mondblut.

mondbluts don't like percentiles, mondbluts like clean and sharp "you get +1 from familiarity". And since percentiles work better for this, I choose a discretized output.

Actually, my familiarity bonuses range from 0 to 3, while the percentage of familiarity for each individual level is hidden. No mention of the decay as well... all these mechanics exist behind the curtains.

 

[visions]

Great idea I think, if properly implemented.

 

[crufty]

great idea

 

[laclongquan]

Great idea! But you must pay attention to drawbacks and ease of use.

If you want to concentrate in one particular piece of weapons, ignoring the easy way of concentrating in a class of weapon, then you should have something to identify that item. Specifically, a visual cue. Nothing worse than hunt for that item among your cavernous inventory. It should have an aura (cheesy) or a different colour compared to its brethren of that class. Blue hue?

And it can be named too. To be heirloom stuff, you know. Cheesy, but real in that DnD worlds you guys so love.

A familiar item should be ease of use, meaning it's quicker, faster, and cause more share of critical damage than normal. It should not cause more normal damage compared to its brothers and sisters.

Familiriality through HP-based or creature-based is more advantageous than use-base in that it's not easily grinded. But you must pay attention in creature designs, that there should not be a particular easy to kill, easy to find, grind mobs. Or people will flock to that mob to grind weapons.

I recommend a little sidequest to gain that familiarity level. Implement a type of weapons call grind-stone? You can hire a grind master to take care of your weapons: check the blade, grind it, check the hilt, reforge it, redone the scabbard... Many smith can do this thing but some highclass weapons should require a grind master. It's an actual fact of Japan is that there's a small elite group of grind master to take care of the swords and bladed weapons. The fact that smiths can take care of your weapons should lie inside a particular quest involved a smith. Once you get through that quest and know that fact, you can ask smiths to do that thing.

 

[soggie]

Great idea! But you must pay attention to drawbacks and ease of use.

If you want to concentrate in one particular piece of weapons, ignoring the easy way of concentrating in a class of weapon, then you should have something to identify that item. Specifically, a visual cue. Nothing worse than hunt for that item among your cavernous inventory. It should have an aura (cheesy) or a different colour compared to its brethren of that class. Blue hue?

And it can be named too. To be heirloom stuff, you know. Cheesy, but real in that DnD worlds you guys so love.

A familiar item should be ease of use, meaning it's quicker, faster, and cause more share of critical damage than normal. It should not cause more normal damage compared to its brothers and sisters.

Familiriality through HP-based or creature-based is more advantageous than use-base in that it's not easily grinded. But you must pay attention in creature designs, that there should not be a particular easy to kill, easy to find, grind mobs. Or people will flock to that mob to grind weapons.

I recommend a little sidequest to gain that familiarity level. Implement a type of weapons call grind-stone? You can hire a grind master to take care of your weapons: check the blade, grind it, check the hilt, reforge it, redone the scabbard... Many smith can do this thing but some highclass weapons should require a grind master. It's an actual fact of Japan is that there's a small elite group of grind master to take care of the swords and bladed weapons. The fact that smiths can take care of your weapons should lie inside a particular quest involved a smith. Once you get through that quest and know that fact, you can ask smiths to do that thing.

I thought you were kidding when you mentioned grind masters right after talking about grinding for XP in the game.

Yes, that is a very good idea: visual cues, ability to name weapons, and having master smiths perfect the weapon's properties. Also, the idea of having a sidequest to find a particular grandmaster for each weapon class is great.

It can be a master swordsmith for swords, a armorer for guns, etc. Finding them would be a challenge itself, but the results should be worth the search. If grinding a weapon to perfection is just going to add a +1 to combat rolls (carefully balanced weapon) and +1 penetration (keen edge), then it is not really worth the hours of information gathering and questing to find the person in the first place.

On the flip side, if there could be real consequences in the game world where your reputation spreads after you "personalize" a weapon, then I think it'll be worth it from the role-playing perspective. Two game years ago when you walked into the village with your rusty sword, nobody paid heed to you, and after two years of notorious adventures with said rusty sword, when you enter the village the crowd parts before you like the red sea and whispers amongst themselves of the "Rusty Swordsman" who they hear are slaughtering bandits and raiders in the countryside. Bartenders would toast your achievements when they recognize your garb and sword, but the next time you walk into the town with a shiney new katana and a new coat, nobody seems to recognize you. When they do, they'll ask - where's your rusty sword?

Shit, sounds like scripting hell.

 

[crufty]

don't script it!

have pcs keep track of what npcs see them and how often, and have the pc trigger the 'surprise' response

 

[soggie]

I think the familiarity with weapons was done somewhat right in "The Fall: Last days of Gaia".

How does it work?