Equipment Familiarity giving bonuses

[Unradscorpion]

Don't make 1000 HP a static value, damage you deal grows with bonuses and thus it's a quadratic growth ( correct me if I'm wrong)

So what is your aim with this system? If I find a new weapon that has a better attack/damage I will take it anyway since I'll just be grinding it to higher numbers the same way I would do with the old one ( since the growth rate is the same).

And even looking from it from a less calculable angle, it encourages keeping old weapons, but players are partly motivated by new loot and changing their equipment.

It's counter-intuitive in many ways, what would it add gameplay wise?

 

[Saark]

And even looking from it from a less calculable angle, it encourages keeping old weapons, but players are partly motivated by new loot and changing their equipment.

People are nostalgic. At least I am. I would rather stick to my Rusty Dagger I killed my first Goblin with as long as its as effective as some 'newer' weapon. I am used to the weight, I am used to how its balanced, changing over to a new weapon and still being used to the old one might actually make a difference in combat. It might even kill me cause i miscalculated my move, based on the older weapon.

 

[Unradscorpion]

Wait, what? Is this one of those 'realism' arguments?

 

[Saark]

Some call it 'realism', some call it 'making sense'. Either way its something I want to be in the games i use my fantasy for. If I wanted to use all my weapons with the same skill, id go play some FPS.

 

[Unradscorpion]

That's not making sense, you can probably adapt to a new weapon pretty fast.

Using all weapons with the same skill? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this.

 

[Saark]

That's not making sense, you can probably adapt to a new weapon pretty fast.

I'm really sure you can't. Imagine that some medieval knight used to fight with a long sword and a shield. He had these weapons for some time. Fighting is partly about keeping balance even with some heavy weaponry. The moment you give that guy another sword that weighs 4 or 5 lbs more due to another material or something, he would have to adapt to the new weight. Being as skilled as he was with the old one wouldn't just take 3 minutes. This is exactly what familiarity is about (as far as i understand it).

Using all weapons with the same skill? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this.

Without some sort of weapon specialization or something like familiarity, you would be able to use every weapon at the same 'skill' level, regardless of weight, balance, recoil and stuff. Thats just not 'realistic'. For example I remember the time i played Counter-Strike somewhat often, and I was way more proficient with some weapons after i played them extensively for several months. I just got more familiar with them.

When you use a weapon, you're completely unfamiliar with all its preferences. After using it for quite some time you get used to it, you know when the clip is empty even without counting every single bullet. Using it even more gets you used to the recoil. After using it 'enough', everything you do with this weapon is instinct. You wont get stuck reloading it, you wont have to aim for seconds to hold the weapon still, you may even be able to shoot accurately looking in a different direction. Getting a new gun thats about the same model, just a little more advanced, doesn't automatically mean that I can carry over all the experience.

Thats what several levels of familiarity would mean to a gun. Id love to see something like that in an RPG more often.

 

[Unradscorpion]

Without some sort of weapon specialization or something like familiarity, you would be able to use every weapon at the same 'skill' level

Well, you divide the weapons into weapon types and you have proficiency with certain types.


I suppose it's one of those things people like for some reason even though they don't add anything to gameplay.

 

[Saark]

Without some sort of weapon specialization or something like familiarity, you would be able to use every weapon at the same 'skill' level

Well, you divide the weapons into weapon types and you have proficiency with certain types.

I suppose it's one of those things people like for some reason even though they don't add anything to gameplay.

Having proficiency with small handguns doesn't (better, shouldn't) mean I'm equally skilled with every handgun in the world.

Of course its not adding something gameplay wise besides another invisible layer of numbers and some hidden, or not hidden, bonuses to the weapon. It adds something roleplay wise though.

 

[Mangoose]

Well, you divide the weapons into weapon types and you have proficiency with certain types.

This.

The system being proposed is not very different from a "learn on use" type of leveling system. As you spend more time in Morrowind using a sword, your sword skill increases - in other words, you are becoming more familiar with that weapon type. So what your idea, assigning familiarity and thus giving "learn on use" to specific weapons, is doing is really just reducing the abstractness of the system. Which is not a bad thing - I just wanted to put things in context, that the abstract layer is there intentionally sometimes, for easier and more efficient design and coding. You're not creating a new system - you're just making an existing system more and more complex, for better or worse.

In other words, in response to:

Having proficiency with small handguns doesn't (better, shouldn't) mean I'm equally skilled with every handgun in the world.

If the weapon skills were divided infinitely, then that's exactly what you get - a different weapon skill for every single weapon.

 

[Saark]

Its not that you would have a weapon skill for every single weapon, but rather the thought of being able to still improve with a weapon you used for a longer time, compared to a weapon of the same type you just bought (and that you're still more proficient with compared to a weapon of some other type you haven't skilled at all).

 

[Mangoose]

Its not that you would have a weapon skill for every single weapon, but rather the thought of being able to still improve with a weapon you used for a longer time, compared to a weapon of the same type you just bought (and that you're still more proficient with compared to a weapon of some other type you haven't skilled at all).

But abstractly, that is how it will turn out. Your familiarity skill/level is essentially the same thing as a typical weapon skill, just named differently and used in a more specific way than is typical in RPGs that have been made. You may have a "sword weapon skill" for all swords and then a "familiarity level" for a specific sword, but they are not two completely distinct concepts but two versions of one another.

 

[Saark]

I wouldn't say its just a version of the other one, it would rather be like a specialization in the specialization, number-wise. Like getting +3 on all combat rolls with short swords, and getting an additional +1 for the rusty short sword you wore till now. Swapping to any other short sword would just give you the +3 combat rolls. Basically you would have to decide to stick to your rusty short sword and get the +1 bonus as well (and it might even improve), or swap over to the slightly less rusty short sword that grants you some better stats but you will be missing the +1 rolls for some time.

 

[Mangoose]

I wouldn't say its just a version of the other one, it would rather be like a specialization in the specialization, number-wise. Like getting +3 on all combat rolls with short swords, and getting an additional +1 for the rusty short sword you wore till now. Swapping to any other short sword would just give you the +3 combat rolls. Basically you would have to decide to stick to your rusty short sword and get the +1 bonus as well (and it might even improve), or swap over to the slightly less rusty short sword that grants you some better stats but you will be missing the +1 rolls for some time.

Same concept, different ways of saying it. Like I said, what you're essentially doing is moving away from the abstract and towards the specific.

The question is, if you're adding in more specific/specialized skills, why familiarity over any number of other specific skills that can also add to roleplaying flavor? I'm too lazy to think of any right now, but can you back up why weapon familiarity is significant, and perhaps more important than other ones?

Secondly, is it feasible to add in a specific skill? As I said before, games aren't designed to be abstract just because a dev doesn't like realism. It's easier and more efficient to write up a game that has less specific skills and instead provide only the abstract ones that can make gameplay "good enough." So is this specific specialization something that can be easily done, or is worthwhile for the effort put in?

It's easy to think up ideas. But it's a lot more meaningful to question them.

 

[Saark]

Well, it would most likely not change much gameplay wise. As you already said, it's 'importance' depends on the way its presented and how important it is compared to other skills or traits you can acquire.

I could see something like familiarity work better in a text-based combat where you can actually explain what it does, by increasing the depth of combat moves described in the text. It doesn't have to be obvious, just something small like: "Your opponent throws you off balance by kicking a stone into your direction. You were able to regain balance by using the weight of your weapons to counter the momentum used to dodge the projectile."
Without any familiarity you might have lost some Dodge Value in that situation. In a similar situation in the future this move might even prove to be instinctive thanks to your experience with your weapons, enabling you to concentrate on a counter-attack.

In a graphical combat situation familiarity would just be another number to your weapon. You would have to play the situation in your mind to actually feel a difference to any other number.

 

[Mangoose]

I see what you mean.

But playing some more Devil's Advocate: Is adding the familiarity stat and thus decreasing the relative value of lootable items really beneficial towards RPG gameplay? Wouldn't it detract from the incentive to explore and kill and loot more items?

/Devil's Advocate

On the other hand, as RPG gameplay focuses heavily on character development, another "type" of skill can't be just quickly dismissed. Perhaps it would instead increase your incentive to explore dungeons so that you can level up your "familiarity skill" more with a specific weapon.

 

[Saark]

It would certainly be beneficial to RPG gameplay in some ways. I remember that talking sword in BG2 for example. Being more "familiar" with it might actually give you more dialogue options, might even open up some additional quests over time and so on, as you show the sword that you're worth wielding it by slaying dragons with it. Its something else with a regular dagger tho. There it is more of a nostalgic matter like "this is the gun my dad gave me on my 7th birthday". It wouldn't add much there, hell I'd even say it adds nothing.

The problem is that there really isn't a big reason to gain familiarity with a weapon besides the bonus stats it might give, besides LARPing.

To the whole 'explore, kill, loot' incentive... wouldn't it actually make more sense to actually find a better weapon than that shitty rusty short sword that you're just wearing cause you've been doing so for eons?
Besides, familiarity shouldn't increase damage of a weapon after all, as the weapon doesn't get sharper, or the bullets any more armor penetration just by 'knowing' them. It would basically be something about accuracy or encumbrance. So taking the iron short sword over the copper one you're wearing now, you might lose some accuracy for some time, but will gain some damage. This actually enables you to play your character in different ways just by swapping weapons of the same type.

 

[Mangoose]

Thinking on your Lilarcor example, perhaps such a system would best fit in a game built for it. For example, a game where a significant part is dedicated to you having a specific magic sword/weapon and developing its powers, perhaps finding 2-3 more unique weapons along your travels. They could tie into your quest and dialogue options like Lilarcor does, but in a more expanded way and perhaps also giving you special abilities.

I guess like the sword from NWN2, which I really don't remember much of. But obviously it would need a much better implementation.

To the whole 'explore, kill, loot' incentive... wouldn't it actually make more sense to actually find a better weapon than that shitty rusty short sword that you're just wearing cause you've been doing so for eons?

Well really it depends on the balance, in how much the familiarity level affects combat versus how much typical weapon skill does. If you make familiarity too strong, then it will end up reducing incentive to explore, kill, loot. If you make it too weak then it's a useless mechanic. You'd really need a good balance.

 

[Saark]

Thinking on your Lilarcor example, perhaps such a system would best fit in a game built for it. For example, a game where a significant part is dedicated to you having a specific magic sword/weapon and developing its powers, perhaps finding 2-3 more unique weapons along your travels. They could tie into your quest and dialogue options like Lilarcor does, but in a more expanded way and perhaps also giving you special abilities.

As far as I remember most of the more powerful magical enhanced weapons in the D&D Universe have either an own consciousness (which might even kill you if you're weak, for example Charon's Claw the short sword of Artemis Entreri) or are former 'empty' weapons who got a soul imprisoned in them (reminds me of the axe Gromph used to capture Dyrrs Soul). In a setting like that there would definitely be a use for the whole familiarity concept besides some combat-stats.

Well really it depends on the balance, in how much the familiarity level affects combat versus how much typical weapon skill does. If you make familiarity too strong, then it will end up reducing incentive to explore, kill, loot. If you make it too weak then it's a useless mechanic. You'd really need a good balance.

I agree. Basically it would be the same as when you say "Using the weapon a lot you got used to it, gaining +1 accuracy. Unfortunately the weapon scuffed, -1 damage". Not much more behind either system. If implemented in addition to a weaponskill or weapontype system it's gonna be hard to balance it so it won't screw up other mechanics, but not being completely unnecessary as well. (which is exactly what you said already )

 

[Mangoose]

As far as I remember most of the more powerful magical enhanced weapons in the D&D Universe have either an own consciousness (which might even kill you if you're weak, for example Charon's Claw the short sword of Artemis Entreri) or are former 'empty' weapons who got a soul imprisoned in them (reminds me of the axe Gromph used to capture Dyrrs Soul). In a setting like that there would definitely be a use for the whole familiarity concept besides some combat-stats.

Ah, yeah, crappy FR novels coming back to me now! But you're right. Such a mechanic would be great, enhancing magic to more than just being +stats.

 

[Saark]

Ah, yeah, crappy FR novels coming back to me now!

I actually enjoyed War of the Spider Queen, most likely because I share the drows hatred for the Forgotten Realms and its inhabitants.

 

[analt]

for example Charon's Claw the short sword of Artemis Entreri

No shit? That hack not only stole the name of a Greek deity for his villain but also for his villain's FUCKING WEAPONS?

I suppose maybe it's worth it, though, to have a writer who names a troll after a Latin American dictator, just so that I can snicker at male characters in MMORPGs calling themselves Guenhwyfar, who don't realize that not only are they married to King Arthur, but in all likelihood they are named after the author's cat.

 

[soggie]

I've half decided to allow higher familiarity levels to decrease AP cost for actions.

This way it would tie up well to my overall framework: Skill determines base dice pool, familiarity adds dice to the pool and decreases AP cost for that action, while mastery levels add special techniques and allows re-rolls of failed rolls in the pool.

 

[laclongquan]

Keep the AP lower cost very high or you will break the balance horribly.

Like people picking Fast Shot in Fallout 2, for example.

 

[soggie]

Keep the AP lower cost very high or you will break the balance horribly.

Like people picking Fast Shot in Fallout 2, for example.

Until I actually implement the system, I can't tell for sure.

I haven't even decided which to go yet: Phase based or Turn based. If Phase based, bonus to AP cost would make sense (since it practically make you shoot faster). But for now, that's how it's gonna be.