Fallout 3 vs Fallout 4

[AlwaysBrotoMen]

Hmm All you guys forgot that starfield is a Bethesda game

 

[SharkClub]

If the gunplay in fallout 3 was like a 2.5/10, the gun play in fallout 4 is like 4/10 at best.


-> Both are shit for shooting stuff.

A bit like how both are equally dogshit for roleplaying and in terms of RPG elements. And thus Fallout 4's 1.5 point lead in the shooting aspect means it's a better game. People who say "oh at least Fallout 3 had skills" forget that such a thing would only matter if how the skills are handled is taken into account. It would be disingenuous to say Fallout 3 has more involved (as opposed to being equally shit) RPG systems just because it has the decaying corpse of classic Fallout's RPG systems propped up and paraded around within it.

I am convinced that anyone who genuinely thinks Fallout 3 is "better" and not just equally shit at its absolute best hasn't actually tried playing the game in 15 years and are going off comparing a hazy memory of it to a less hazy memory of Fallout 4's issues.

If you want to play a good RPG you're meant to stay away from both turds, not debate over how Fallout 3 might be 0.015x "deeper" than 4 and how that makes it worth playing for its RPG elements instead of just playing one of the thousands of other RPGs which don't shit the bed in that regard. Fallout 4 on its own at least has a bit of merit in being a passably average popamole looter shooter explorer modded barbie doll dressup game, lore rape and genre rape aside.

 

[Lemming42]

A bit like how both are equally dogshit for roleplaying and in terms of RPG elements.

Would you make the same argument for New Vegas, that it's "equally dogshit" as Fo4 for these elements? If not, why, when compared to Fo3?

 

[SharkClub]

A bit like how both are equally dogshit for roleplaying and in terms of RPG elements.

Would you make the same argument for New Vegas, that it's "equally dogshit" as Fo4 for these elements? If not, why, when compared to Fo3?

Of course not, because as I said, the context of how the RPG elements are utilized is extremely important in this case, much moreso than having the dressed up corpse of the series' systems on display in Fallout 3.

Obsidian obviously understood the assignment better than Bethesda when tasked with making a Fallout RPG. New Vegas is full of skill checks, quests with C&C and branching paths that amount to more than picking the obviously evil or obviously good option. There is also infinitely more player agency in the main quest where you're not just doing everything your dad says in an extremely linear fashion which ends with you saving the good guys (brotherhood) from the bad guys (enclave). Obsidian may be shit now but they knew what they were doing back when New Vegas came out, this was immediately obvious to anyone with any experience with Fallout that wasn't just Fallout 3 when playing NV for the first time.

 

[Lemming42]

Fallout 3's quests have a wealth of branching, C&C, skill checks, and contextual checks (by which I mean opening up new paths depending on your previous actions), often moreso than New Vegas quests. I can whip the diagrams out if I really have to. The main quest in Fo3 is indeed absolutely awful, but the most of the sidequests are well-structured.

The claim that it's equal to Fo4, which literally has no skill checks or branching at all as far as I remember (barring a couple charisma checks and giving you a choice of faction in the main quest) is so at odds with reality that I had to read your post twice just to be sure I'd read it right.

 

[SharkClub]

I remember the Fallout 3 c&c cope diagrams, the ones with choices like "use a pistol to kill x" vs "use a rifle to kill x". It's some absolute delusional cope to say 3 has c&c that even remotely rivals NV in its sidequests.

 

[Ash]

FO3 does function as an RPG more so than FO4. That's the only points I give it. Ultimately it's just not particularly good overall. FO4 is a little better (despite being a lesser RPG) and New Vegas considerably so. I consider FO3 utterly redundant given their presence. New Vegas for the overall better experience, and 4 for a somewhat watered down version but with superior combat and survival elements/challenge/level design/art direction/less annoying characters.

FO4 has features that shit on FO3, such as healing over time, rad storms and radiation poisoning that actually does something, survival game rules, dedicated melee and grenade inputs, much better AI, an overworld that while not amazing is better than the literal bland wasteland of FO3. Oh, and being able to move at more than a snail's pace is very nice too (can modify base movement speed + there's sprinting).

 

[Lemming42]

I remember the Fallout 3 c&c cope diagrams, the ones with choices like "use a pistol to kill x" vs "use a rifle to kill x". It's some absolute delusional cope to say 3 has c&c that even remotely rivals NV in its sidequests.

Knew we'd have to pull them out. Here's one:

diagram

The "Kill X or peacefully take the key" parts usually have several options. For example, with Dukov, you can pickpocket the key, kill him and take it, convince him with a speech check, persuade Cherry to join you and steal it from him, or use Lady Killer to persuade Fantasia to steal it from him. With Ted, you can intimidate him with 6 strength or the Toughness perk, pickpocket it, kill him, or pass a speech check.

So there's three distinct endings, including a path through that has no combat at all, and usually 3 - 5 skill checks or character build oriented options (ie combat, pickpocketing) for each sub-step.

What's this example quest missing, that it needs to be a Real RPG? What makes this distinctly worse than a New Vegas quest? What quests in Fallout 4 have this level of branching and skill-based solutions?

There is also infinitely more player agency in the main quest where you're not just doing everything your dad says in an extremely linear fashion which ends with you saving the good guys (brotherhood) from the bad guys (enclave).

...Fallout 1 and 2? Fallout 3's main quest is utterly dire for a huge number of reasons, but in terms of linearity and lack of player agency, it's the rule with Fallout. New Vegas's choice-heavy approach is the exception.

 

[SharkClub]

FO3 does function as an RPG more so than FO4. That's the only points I give it. Ultimately it's just not particularly good overall. FO4 is a little better (despite being a lesser RPG) and New Vegas considerably so. I consider FO3 utterly redundant given their presence.

Redundant is the exact descriptor for Fallout 3. There is not a single thing that that game does better than any other game in the series it comes from. Not one thing.

If you want the best story you're not playing 3, if you want the best world you're not playing 3, if you want the best quests you're not playing 3, if you want the best exploration you're not playing 3, and so on and so forth. Even FoBoS is a reasonably entertaining twin stick shooter action game. There is no reason you should ever find yourself playing Fallout 3 in a post New Vegas/Fallout 4 world, unless you are a masochist.

 

[deuxhero]

NV choice and consequence is more the fact that you have so many opportunities to use your specific skills and perks to solve problems. It makes different playthroughs feel significantly different because they all find different ways around the problem. The narrative choice and consequence is pretty lacking outside of ending slides (e.g. your choice at the end of That Lucky Old Sun has no ramifications anywhere during the game).

Reminds me of a mod that made it so that powering Freeside made the streetlights active, lowering spawn rate of the various thugs and pickpockets there (IIRC spreading it lowered it but not as much). It was a neat, simple, and reasonably logical inclusion. Neither is much of an issue by the time you reach Freeside, but it's the thought and a minor annoyance gone.

 

[Beans00]

If the gunplay in fallout 3 was like a 2.5/10, the gun play in fallout 4 is like 4/10 at best.


-> Both are shit for shooting stuff.

A bit like how both are equally dogshit for roleplaying and in terms of RPG elements. And thus Fallout 4's 1.5 point lead in the shooting aspect means it's a better game. People who say "oh at least Fallout 3 had skills" forget that such a thing would only matter if how the skills are handled is taken into account. It would be disingenuous to say Fallout 3 has more involved (as opposed to being equally shit) RPG systems just because it has the decaying corpse of classic Fallout's RPG systems propped up and paraded around within it.

I am convinced that anyone who genuinely thinks Fallout 3 is "better" and not just equally shit at its absolute best hasn't actually tried playing the game in 15 years and are going off comparing a hazy memory of it to a less hazy memory of Fallout 4's issues.

If you want to play a good RPG you're meant to stay away from both turds, not debate over how Fallout 3 might be 0.015x "deeper" than 4 and how that makes it worth playing for its RPG elements instead of just playing one of the thousands of other RPGs which don't shit the bed in that regard. Fallout 4 on its own at least has a bit of merit in being a passably average popamole looter shooter explorer modded barbie doll dressup game, lore rape and genre rape aside.

Fallout 4 was significantly more cringe then fallout 3. Which is an achievement in and of itself I suppose. I haven't played fallout 3 since around 2009, and I played fallout 4 maybe 18-24 months ago so maybe I'm getting recency bias. In my memory though the whole institute/minutemen/everything in the world was infinitely more trash in fallout 4. Which is saying something given how cringe the f3bos and enclave are.

The only logical explanation I can think is people like ASH are probably virgins so he took the whole 'find your son' plot line seriously. Then again maybe fallout 3 fans have daddy issues since you spend 75% of the main quest following liam neeson around.




Also as someone who actually played FOBOS, that game is significantly worse then either bethesda games. Maybe even worse then 76. If you're saying otherwise you haven't played it and are larping for brownie points.

 

[Butter]

Fallout 4 was significantly more cringe then fallout 3.

I had to think about it for a second but this is probably true.

"Ad Victoriam. It means 'to victory'."

 

[Just Locus]

Knew we'd have to pull them out. Here's one:

diagram

undefined

You realize "You gotta shoot em' in the head", "Big Trouble in Big Town" and "Trouble on the Homefront" are about the only quests where this type of diagram is applicable... right? 3-4 quests out of 17.

 

[Lemming42]

You realize "You gotta shoot em' in the head", "Big Trouble in Big Town" and "Trouble on the Homefront" are about the only quests where this type of diagram is applicable... right? 3-4 quests out of 17.

Fine, we'll keep going...

diagram

There's broadly four ways through this quest - kill both protagonists, side with AntAgonizer, side with Mechanist, or talk one of them down.

The ways to interact with each protagonist are as follows:

antagonizer

- Walk into AntAgonizer's lair wearing the Mechanist's costume, which you can get from him in two different ways. She'll attack on sight.
- Hand her the Mechanist's costume, which resolves the quest.
- Pass a speech check with another character in town to learn her true identity, then pass a speech check with her to talk her down. If you're male and have the Lady Killer perk, this is a guaranteed success.
- Talk her down by ridiculing her, which is a high speech check.
- If you've been to another dungeon on the other side of the map - which neither this quest nor any other quest point to - you can find a piece of information hidden on a terminal that gives you a unique dialogue option to talk her down in a unique way. I can't immediately think of anything else like this in another Fallout game.
- Agree to work with her, agreeing to kill the Mechanist.
- Just kill her.

mechanist

- Largely similar to the AntAgonizer route with a couple differences: first, you can walk in dressed as AntAgonizer, and he'll attack on sight.
- Hand him AntAgonizer's costume, resolving the quest.
- If you choose threatening dialogue, he'll be provoked into attacking you.
- Join him to kill AntAgonizer.
- Talk him down with a high speech check.
- If you're female and have the Black Widow perk, you can flirt with him to bypass the speech check.
- If you have the Child at Heart perk, you have a unique option which talks him down.

Tell me if you need another, because you're wrong - it's the case for basically every quest in the game.

The other question I'd ask at this point is: what quests in Fallout 1 and 2 surpass this in terms of quest design?

I mean, let's take all the quests in Shady Sands and the Khans base:

shady sands and khans quests

- Stop the Radscoprions (two ways: kill them all, or blow up the entrance)
- Free Tandi (four ways to do this - speech check garl, kill everyone, fight garl one-on-one, barter with garl)

The following are unmarked quests, but I'll include them anyway:
- Cure Jarvis (one way to do this, use antipoison on him)
- Improve the agriculture (one way to do this, pass a science check)
- Free the slaves (one way to do this, kill everyone in the Khans base)

Let's check Fallout 2 as well, Arroyo and Klamath.

arroyo and klamath

- Kill the plants (one way to do this; kill the plants)
- Find Smoke (one way to do this, just walk west until you find Smoke)
- Get the flint (two ways: speech check Morlis or just steal the flint)
- Fix the well (one way to do this, use repair on the well)
- Find smiley (one way to do this; go to the gecko cave and fight the geckos until you find him. you can also fail by waiting too long)
- Guard the brahmin (two ways to do this; guard them or betray the tard and join the duntons to move to the Rustle the Brahmin quest)
- Refuel the still (two ways to do this; either walk to the still and refuel it or talk to the other guy and betray the questgiver)
- Kill keeng rat (one way to do this; literally just go kill him)
- Rescue torr (one way to do this; kill a Mr Handy).

What is it that renders Fo1/2 True RPG Greatness and renders Fo3 unthinkable dogshit, specifically in terms of actual quest structure and C&C?

Pick a more linear Fo3 quest, like Agatha's song - how is that any worse than the examples listed from Fo1/2? You find the violin (which involves a few speech/perk checks or a trip to a dungeon to find the location of the vault which contains it), you get it, then you can choose to give it back to the questgiver (which creates a new, permanent radio station) or betray her by selling it to some other people for profit. What's wrong with that quest, exactly?

 

[markec]

What is it that renders Fo1/2 True RPG Greatness and renders Fo3 unthinkable dogshit, specifically in terms of actual quest structure and C&C?

Pick a more linear Fo3 quest, like Agatha's song - how is that any worse than the examples listed from Fo1/2? You find the violin (which involves a few speech/perk checks or a trip to a dungeon to find the location of the vault which contains it), you get it, then you can choose to give it back to the questgiver (which creates a new, permanent radio station) or betray her by selling it to some other people for profit. What's wrong with that quest, exactly?

Maybe if you choose some more complex quests and not those which are used to pretty much introduce the player in the game. But even if all quests in F3 are more complex then its predecessors it still doesnt change that F3 has FAR inferior writing and worldbuilding.

Sure San Francisco is bad, and New Reno makes little sense in the setting. On the other hand pretty much everything in F3 is retarded, from large settlement which is built around a bomb to small settlements that consist of 5 people armed with pistols surrounded by every manner of hostile creature. While every location in the wasteland is still full of food and other supplies.

F3 feels like and is nothing but a retarded theme park.

 

[Lemming42]

We're not talking about the writing, though, we're talking very specifically about the categories SharkClub mentioned - C&C, branching, and skill checks. In the part of my post you quoted I even stressed with italics that those were what we're focusing on.

 

[Just Locus]

Tell me if you need another, because you're wrong - it's the case for basically every quest in the game.

Ok.

Head Of State

Most of the choices present here are extremely binary and only in the beginning of the quest does a speech check show itself, the rest is completely able to be done by all characters regardless of build

Reiley's Rangers

Again, Only ONE skill check and that is at the end of the quest.

The Nuka-Cola Challenge

Once again, only one present speech check, and that is at the beginning.

Those!

Speech check only at the near end of the quest (I'll actually give credit to BGS for allowing us to enslave Bryan to Paradise Falls as a choice).

The Replicated Man

There are no speech checks present in this quest.

Pick a more linear Fo3 quest, like Agatha's song - how is that any worse than the examples listed from Fo1/2? You find the violin (which involves a few speech/perk checks or a trip to a dungeon to find the location of the vault which contains it), you get it, then you can choose to give it back to the questgiver (which creates a new, permanent radio station) or betray her by selling it to some other people for profit. What's wrong with that quest, exactly?

What do you mean by "A few speech/perk checks"? There is only ONE speech check at the end of the quest when you give the violin to Abraham Washington or Ahzrukhal.

I'd also like to point out that simply pointing how quests end differently depending on choice (and therefore have 'branching paths') is utterly meaningless because the lack of ending slides make it so we don't know what came of the people we helped/harmed along the way, not to mention the nonsensical plots present in these side quests like Blood Ties and The Replicated Man (moreso about how a fucking child from Little Lamplight somehow knows about Harkness' secret identity...) hurts the quality of them as well.

 

[Lemming42]

You are forgetting plenty of details in the quests: in "Reilly's Rangers", for example, you can wake Reilly with a Medicine check, or convince the doctor to wake her with a Speech check. The dungeon itself also makes use of player build - locked doors, grenade traps, etc. Similarly, in "Those!", there's a speech/perk check on Bryan at the start, and a speech/science check on the scientist near the end which allows you to access the "kill the ant queen" ending without pissing him off.

Again, what are you comparing these quests to? What in Fallout 1, 2 and New Vegas is head and shoulders above these, to the point that Fo3 is irredeemable shit (again, specifically in terms of quest structure) while the rest are all True RPGs™?

What do you mean by "A few speech/perk checks"? There is only ONE speech check at the end of the quest when you give the violin to Abraham Washington or Ahzrukhal.

There's a charisma check and a Lady Killer check for Agatha, iirc. (EDIT: Looked it up - turns out this is not for the vault location, but rather for her to give you access to her husband's gun case)

I'd also like to point out that simply pointing how quests end differently depending on choice (and therefore have 'branching paths') is utterly meaningless because the lack of ending slides make it so we don't know what came of the people we helped/harmed along the way

This is true, however, Fo3 has numerous in-game consequences. For Big Town, for example, the way in which the player deals with the mutants in the finale determines what the town will look like afterwards, and what types of equipment traders will bring to the town. Wasteland Survival Guide results in three different possible random encounters based on how the book turned out. Betraying Sidney in Stealing Independence causes her to ambush you later, and so on.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

quests lol
4 works as an open world explorey looter shooter, taking in some sights and murdering shit.
3 is unforgivable. And trash as a game.

 

[adddeed]

If the gunplay in fallout 3 was like a 2.5/10, the gun play in fallout 4 is like 4/10 at best.


-> Both are shit for shooting stuff.

A bit like how both are equally dogshit for roleplaying and in terms of RPG elements. And thus Fallout 4's 1.5 point lead in the shooting aspect means it's a better game. People who say "oh at least Fallout 3 had skills" forget that such a thing would only matter if how the skills are handled is taken into account. It would be disingenuous to say Fallout 3 has more involved (as opposed to being equally shit) RPG systems just because it has the decaying corpse of classic Fallout's RPG systems propped up and paraded around within it.

I am convinced that anyone who genuinely thinks Fallout 3 is "better" and not just equally shit at its absolute best hasn't actually tried playing the game in 15 years and are going off comparing a hazy memory of it to a less hazy memory of Fallout 4's issues.

If you want to play a good RPG you're meant to stay away from both turds, not debate over how Fallout 3 might be 0.015x "deeper" than 4 and how that makes it worth playing for its RPG elements instead of just playing one of the thousands of other RPGs which don't shit the bed in that regard. Fallout 4 on its own at least has a bit of merit in being a passably average popamole looter shooter explorer modded barbie doll dressup game, lore rape and genre rape aside.

Im playing Fallout 3 currently. As an RPG its miles ahead of Fallout 4 there is no contest.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

I tried going back to FO4 but after a number of hours I just can't keep going. I made it to Diamond City, but the game wants me to go to 20 different places at the same time. It's directionless. You can be a dozen hours into the game and you still haven't found out anything relevant to the game's main conflict. It doesn't matter if it's good or bad writing, it's just shit design. Open world was always a mistake.

 

[Silverfish]

You can be a dozen hours into the game and you still haven't found out anything relevant to the game's main conflict.

Good. The main quest is the worst part of the game, by far.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

You can be a dozen hours into the game and you still haven't found out anything relevant to the game's main conflict.

Good. The main quest is the worst part of the game, by far.

Yeah, surprisingly it's kinda easy to get lost exploring dungeons and building settlements. Getting materials for my little towns gives me more enjoyment than finding out where the fuck my son is.

 

[SharkClub]

Also as someone who actually played FOBOS, that game is significantly worse then either bethesda games. Maybe even worse then 76. If you're saying otherwise you haven't played it and are larping for brownie points.

I have beaten FOBOS, no larp. It's just a mediocre Fallout themed Dark Alliance clone (right down to using the same engine illegally) with subpar quest design gameplay-wise, it's not as offensively bad as most people say it is as long as you ignore its relation to Fallout. Fallout 3 is comparatively painful to play because it's an ultra clunkfest with none of the modern quality of life features of Fallout 4 or 76, which wouldn't really be a problem if the rest of the game is good (Deus Ex, Arx Fatalis, Morrowind), but it's not, it has shitty exploration, shitty quests, a shitty story and shitty first person rpg gameplay.

And no, spamming random retarded ad hominem about how someone is a virgin that doesn't understand parenthood doesn't make Fallout 3 a good game. The fuck?

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

FOBOS has an appearance of the og Vault Dweller on it and it's based on the black haired dude from the premade characters.