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MetalCraze

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
21,104
Location
Urkanistan
Jaime Lannister said:
1/3 of a campaign is 10 missions. A full campaign has 30 missions. Each game or expansion has 30 missions.

You just don't get it, I'm sorry.
Don't get what? Since when a number of missions says something about the campaign? Half of them can easily be filler (build-destroy) and the other half can last for 10 minutes.
Sorry but you don't get it - in SC you could've played all 3 races in a single-player that isn't skirmish. And even in Broodwar too.
And this is just a marketing trick. They even announced two expansions and the game is not yet on the shelves.

You have two separate ideas. One is to have a game with two expansions. Each game or expansion has 10 terran, 10 protoss, and 10 zerg missions. The other is to have each game or expansion have 30 missions each with one race each. Either way, you end up with 30 terran, 30 protoss, and 30 zerg missions. There's no reason for one to cost more than the other.
Except to have protoss and zerg missions I'll have to buy 2 more expansions.
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,661
If you look at what they are doing with battle.net and the new map editor I cannot see how anyone can not be excited about SC2.

EDIT: So I finally actually read the article the OP listed. I don't know why you thought it was at all worth posting here. It is clearly a bunch of word twisting and half truths by someone with a personal agenda. If I had to guess the guy bitching in the article was planning to "borrow" a copy of SC2 and play on a LAN with his friends and is now mad because he can't do that.
 

kris

Arcane
Joined
Oct 27, 2004
Messages
8,856
Location
Lulea, Sweden
MetalCraze said:
Jaime Lannister said:
1/3 of a campaign is 10 missions. A full campaign has 30 missions. Each game or expansion has 30 missions.

You just don't get it, I'm sorry.
Don't get what? Since when a number of missions says something about the campaign? Half of them can easily be filler (build-destroy) and the other half can last for 10 minutes.
Sorry but you don't get it - in SC you could've played all 3 races in a single-player that isn't skirmish. And even in Broodwar too.
And this is just a marketing trick. They even announced two expansions and the game is not yet on the shelves.

You have two separate ideas. One is to have a game with two expansions. Each game or expansion has 10 terran, 10 protoss, and 10 zerg missions. The other is to have each game or expansion have 30 missions each with one race each. Either way, you end up with 30 terran, 30 protoss, and 30 zerg missions. There's no reason for one to cost more than the other.
Except to have protoss and zerg missions I'll have to buy 2 more expansions.

You are just complaining because that is what you do. He is just saying that the campaign seems to be as long as before. "A full campaign" is by no means something that have to have all three races in a short string of missions. Having one race in as long a campaign is just different, not less. as far as we know. Also from the info we got this far we only seen more features compared to the first game.

3x30 missions with one race each
or
3x30 missions with all three races per campaign.

Just comes down to preference
 

MetalCraze

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
21,104
Location
Urkanistan
Yes, except SC and its Broodwar had more variety to campaign because of that and you could've tried all 3 races in one game without distributing that campaign through 3 games. Here we basically have Starcraft: Episodes.
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,661
MetalCraze said:
Yes, except SC and its Broodwar had more variety to campaign because of that and you could've tried all 3 races in one game without distributing that campaign through 3 games. Here we basically have Starcraft: Episodes.
Picking your custom advancement up the tech-tree or having a semi-non-linear mission structure doesn't mean anything if there are only 3 missions in the campaign. Likewise, 10 missions probably wasn't enough to show off those advancements either. (OMG logic)
 

Destroid

Arcane
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
16,628
Location
Australia
Did people get their pitchforks out about there only being a marine campaign in DoW or DoW2? There was also only a single campaign for Homeworld and Homeworld 2.

I couldn't really care less myself, I find singleplayer RTS pretty dull.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
57,019
MetalCraze said:
Half of them can easily be filler (build-destroy) and the other half can last for 10 minutes.

That could happen irrespectively whether they let you play all three races for the first 30 missions or have you stuck with the Terrans until the expansions.
 

random newfag

Novice
Joined
Jun 30, 2009
Messages
23
I wouldn't be surprised if you had to have a paid premium account before you started selling your map mods on the marketplace.
 

Geofferic

Educated
Joined
Aug 23, 2008
Messages
51
fizzelopeguss said:
You've gotta be a colossal fag if you think 3! confirmed blizzard starcraft titles is a bad thing.

You've gotta be a colossal idiot to say things like this.
 

fizzelopeguss

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2004
Messages
870
Location
Equality Street.
It's awesome...it's like buying AVP, but this time the campaign is based around the quality colonial marine levels rather than the shitty predator and alien ones. It's precisely what made DoW's campaign so good, focus on the marines the race that people actually give a fuck about.
 
Joined
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Messages
6,207
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The island of misfit mascots
MetalCraze said:
Jaime Lannister said:
1/3 of a campaign is 10 missions. A full campaign has 30 missions. Each game or expansion has 30 missions.

You just don't get it, I'm sorry.
Don't get what? Since when a number of missions says something about the campaign? Half of them can easily be filler (build-destroy) and the other half can last for 10 minutes.
Sorry but you don't get it - in SC you could've played all 3 races in a single-player that isn't skirmish. And even in Broodwar too.
And this is just a marketing trick. They even announced two expansions and the game is not yet on the shelves.

You have two separate ideas. One is to have a game with two expansions. Each game or expansion has 10 terran, 10 protoss, and 10 zerg missions. The other is to have each game or expansion have 30 missions each with one race each. Either way, you end up with 30 terran, 30 protoss, and 30 zerg missions. There's no reason for one to cost more than the other.
Except to have protoss and zerg missions I'll have to buy 2 more expansions.

It's funny that you mention the non-skirmish missions as the filler ones. Most people who like RTS's utterly loathe the lack of a skirmish focus in most single-player campaigns. Build-destroy maps are the only ones that can offer up anything approaching a challenge, by making you face a superior force without any built-in 'auto-win' strategy. Non build-destroy maps are retarded in an RTS because they take the tactical aspect out of it. Instead of having a variety of strategies open to you, while requiring you to scout and counter your opponent's strategies, you're forced into adopting the one (usually painfully obvious) 'correct' strategy for winning that map. It's like saying 'AI is so shite compared to a real human opponent on skirmish maps, that we're better off making it REALLY retarded so that it only adopts the one preset build order, unit combination and attack pattern'.

Shite like that is the reason why about 75% of WC3 players were so utterly unequipped and unprepared for playing online ranked matches when they finished the singler-player campain, that they became competely disenfranchised through their inability to understand why they were getting their ass kicked (omg, there must be some singular auto-win unit combination! I know I'll look it up on the net - whoah here's some build orders, but there's a lot of stuff about scouting, map control and responding to opponents that I don't understand, but it must be the magic unit combo that's important...WWAAAAGHH!! I keep losing even though I used the magic unit combo! This game must be rigged!) and gave up, playing nothing but custom maps from then on. The focus on 'one-strategy' puzzle maps at the expense of skirmishes meant that the campaign did nothing to introduce new players to scouting, map control, recognising your opponent's strategy in advance (fast-teching orc with 2 beasteries? That means he's going mass wyverns/raiders and I won't have an effective counter until tier 3.5 - much too far away. I'd better either (a) cripple his economy before the tech finishes, (b) stop teching, build another crypt, sell unnecessary buildings and do an all-or-nothing rush, or (c) expand, keep engaging him away from my base, so I can build up an economic advantage to counter his military one and then beat him in tier 3), use hit-n-retreat tactics, or balancing when to tech vs expand vs rush vs harass - basically nothing except for 'build as many units as you can of the highest tech tier you can, and send them to your opponent's base.

Then they hit multiplayer where you can't just tech up at your leisure, and even if you do, all 'mass x top-end unit' have a cheaper counter.

And for what? A story, that is completely non-interactive and told entirely through cutscenes? It doesn't matter what set of 'badass' lore you want to invent to justify why the tier 1 melee unit for one race does 7 damage and has 3 armour, whilst the one for another race does 3 damage and has 7 armour - when the only ways that the lore will show up in the game will be (1) the unit graphs (and we haven't suddenly become graphics-whores have we?), and (2) the cutscenes. The single player storyline matters as much to RTSs as Werdna's backstory did in Wizardry 1 - skipping it entirely would not affect the gameplay one bit. Now that changed in RPGs because they started moving away from pure wargaming to having C+C and incorporating dialogue as a form of gameplay. RTSs, on the other hand, are still wargaming and so storyline is as irrelevant to gameplay as it always has been. Sure, they could introduce dialogue-driven C+C into RTS games, though that isn't describing any RTS made just yet (though the original designs for WC3 seem to have envisaged that). But when you consider that in RTSs the ratio of combat to dialogue AND C+C has to be enormous, otherwise you'd have an RTS in the same vein that FO3 was an RPG, it seems most unlikely that anyone would be moved enough by the plot to choose on any basis other than what will give the greatest practical gameplay advantage. Which, again, means that storyline would be still be irreelevant to the gameplay.

And take the storyline away from the puzzle maps and you've got a gimped skirmish map with all but one strategic option taken away.
 

vrok

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 23, 2005
Messages
738
I like the Starcraft and Brood War campagin, but DoW..? :lol: That campaign is fucking infamous for being terribad. Winter Assault was pretty much infinitely better, even though it was the shortest campaign ever.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
57,019
All single player RTS campaigns i've played have been shit, except for two, the original C&C and Starcraft, both of them because of the story, characters and atmosphere. Warcraft III was a considerable step forward compared to previous efforts in that it tried to offer a bit more then a mere series of mildly scripted skirmish maps, but the story was so mind numbly boring (except for the Orc campaigns maybe) that the effort was almost made void. If Starcraft can improve on the concepts introduced in Warcraft III while offering a plot that is at least as captivating as the original then, perhaps, it might be worth forking the 150$ for it, assuming of course that the multilayer experience is an improvement to Warcraft III.
 

vrok

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 23, 2005
Messages
738
If you think DoW's campaign was actually good, chances are you're a flaming WH40k fanboy faggot. Or retarded.
 

Jaime Lannister

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
7,183
I liked Brood Wars' campaign. Too many of the original Starcraft's missions were various tutorials.
 

Shannow

Waster of Time
Joined
Sep 15, 2006
Messages
6,386
Location
Finnegan's Wake
Azrael the cat said:
It's funny that you mention the non-skirmish missions as the filler ones. Most people who like RTS's utterly loathe the lack of a skirmish focus in most single-player campaigns. Build-destroy maps are the only ones that can offer up anything approaching a challenge, by making you face a superior force without any built-in 'auto-win' strategy. Non build-destroy maps are retarded in an RTS because they take the tactical aspect out of it. Instead of having a variety of strategies open to you, while requiring you to scout and counter your opponent's strategies, you're forced into adopting the one (usually painfully obvious) 'correct' strategy for winning that map. It's like saying 'AI is so shite compared to a real human opponent on skirmish maps, that we're better off making it REALLY retarded so that it only adopts the one preset build order, unit combination and attack pattern'.

Shite like that is the reason why about 75% of WC3 players were so utterly unequipped and unprepared for playing online ranked matches when they finished the singler-player campain, that they became competely disenfranchised through their inability to understand why they were getting their ass kicked (omg, there must be some singular auto-win unit combination! I know I'll look it up on the net - whoah here's some build orders, but there's a lot of stuff about scouting, map control and responding to opponents that I don't understand, but it must be the magic unit combo that's important...WWAAAAGHH!! I keep losing even though I used the magic unit combo! This game must be rigged!) and gave up, playing nothing but custom maps from then on. The focus on 'one-strategy' puzzle maps at the expense of skirmishes meant that the campaign did nothing to introduce new players to scouting, map control, recognising your opponent's strategy in advance (fast-teching orc with 2 beasteries? That means he's going mass wyverns/raiders and I won't have an effective counter until tier 3.5 - much too far away. I'd better either (a) cripple his economy before the tech finishes, (b) stop teching, build another crypt, sell unnecessary buildings and do an all-or-nothing rush, or (c) expand, keep engaging him away from my base, so I can build up an economic advantage to counter his military one and then beat him in tier 3), use hit-n-retreat tactics, or balancing when to tech vs expand vs rush vs harass - basically nothing except for 'build as many units as you can of the highest tech tier you can, and send them to your opponent's base.

Then they hit multiplayer where you can't just tech up at your leisure, and even if you do, all 'mass x top-end unit' have a cheaper counter.

And for what? A story, that is completely non-interactive and told entirely through cutscenes? It doesn't matter what set of 'badass' lore you want to invent to justify why the tier 1 melee unit for one race does 7 damage and has 3 armour, whilst the one for another race does 3 damage and has 7 armour - when the only ways that the lore will show up in the game will be (1) the unit graphs (and we haven't suddenly become graphics-whores have we?), and (2) the cutscenes. The single player storyline matters as much to RTSs as Werdna's backstory did in Wizardry 1 - skipping it entirely would not affect the gameplay one bit. Now that changed in RPGs because they started moving away from pure wargaming to having C+C and incorporating dialogue as a form of gameplay. RTSs, on the other hand, are still wargaming and so storyline is as irrelevant to gameplay as it always has been. Sure, they could introduce dialogue-driven C+C into RTS games, though that isn't describing any RTS made just yet (though the original designs for WC3 seem to have envisaged that). But when you consider that in RTSs the ratio of combat to dialogue AND C+C has to be enormous, otherwise you'd have an RTS in the same vein that FO3 was an RPG, it seems most unlikely that anyone would be moved enough by the plot to choose on any basis other than what will give the greatest practical gameplay advantage. Which, again, means that storyline would be still be irreelevant to the gameplay.

And take the storyline away from the puzzle maps and you've got a gimped skirmish map with all but one strategic option taken away.
Yeah, people and what they bitch about are stupid. You can play skirmish maps whenever you want. You don't need the campaign for that (as you yourself point out in the end). And playing against AI is rarely useful as practice against human opponents, no matter how many skirmish games you play.
In a campaign you can slowly introduce the units/tech tree with some pointers as to how they are useful. You can also have non-skirmish missions. I always liked the "small band of units have to accomplish a mission" and "survive x waves of y enemies for z time" missions". I wouldn't mind the addition of tower defense or Diablo-like Hero misisions either. So while I wouldn't remove skirmish from sp-campaigns I'd certainly keep it balanced with other type of missions that are not as suitable for mp.
 

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