sgc_meltdown
Arcane
- Joined
- May 8, 2003
- Messages
- 6,000
Lolno. You design system that is robust and doesn't lead to absurdities so that you can count on it not biting you in the ass later.Kraszu said:DraQ said:It's not a stat determining accuracy or weapon effectiveness in general. For example you may make an NPC upgrade a weapon for you or you may be forced to use unupgraded weapon for some time and you have your actual combat performance completely independent on the related skill.Kraszu said:How is learning how to upgrade a weapon not a stat?
Duh, you design the game around the system that you use.
The Arcanum where you could tell any of technically inclined followers to create stuff for you to use? The Arcanum where you could find many firearms in the world and be a sharpshooter without ever putting a point into gunsmithy or a gunsmith without ever putting point into firearms? The Arcanum where crafting/upgrading stuff required schematics and resources, often delaying desired upgrades?I never had such a situation in Arcanum.
Lolno. It's like saying that guild specific armours don't matter for limiting armour use, if you can get plenty of perfectly serviceable armours that aren't guild specific. Besides, guild specific armours are meaningless if they don't come with a (non-retarded) way to restrict their availability (like having guildmembers recognize it and be not too happy if they see non-member wearing it). There is nothing inherently illogical with looting guild specific armour off living-impaired guild members.That would be like saying that having guild specific armours doesn't matter because you can buy the same armour from the merchant or find it on the ground, well you can't if you make the armour exclusive, and impossible to get anywhere else wtf Draq why do I even have to explain this.
Well, accuracy tends to be rather good limiter of usability.villain of the story said:Let's say we don't want a Diablo in first person, so substituting accuracy, damage, RoF etc. with each other for the purposes of tank/support balancing is not viable a solution (other stuff the ability to aim rapidly are ok, obviously).
DraQ said:Lolno. You design system that is robust and doesn't lead to absurdities so that you can count on it not biting you in the ass later.
If your system falls apart when confronted with the kind of situations you can expect to occur routinely, then it's shit, not a system.
I never had such a situation in Arcanum.
DraQ said:The Arcanum where you could tell any of technically inclined followers to create stuff for you to use? The Arcanum where you could find many firearms in the world and be a sharpshooter without ever putting a point into gunsmithy or a gunsmith without ever putting point into firearms?
DraQ said:The Arcanum where crafting/upgrading stuff required schematics and resources, often delaying desired upgrades?
DraQ said:You fucking high?
DraQ said:Lolno. It's like saying that guild specific armours don't matter for limiting armour use, if you can get plenty of perfectly serviceable armours that aren't guild specific. Besides, guild specific armours are meaningless if they don't come with a (non-retarded) way to restrict their availability (like having guildmembers recognize it and be not too happy if they see non-member wearing it). There is nothing inherently illogical with looting guild specific armour off living-impaired guild members.
Kraszu said:I didn't took technically gifted companions so I didn't know about it, nothing hard about removing such ability, heck for FPS it is better to not have companions anyway. You really think that not putting items in the gameworld that you should have to craft is somehow hard? Also yes you did found some weapons but you needed technical skill to use it, and the best weapons were still those upgraded by you somehow Toika had manage to not have them lay on the ground. There were balance problems with the game but that was a Toika fault not the system fault, how hard would it be to not give Sharp Shooter's Pistol to a gun smith in Tarant? To not have craft able weapons sold by merchants? Have merchants only sell basic fire arms, and basic ammunition.
JarlFrank said:Well, I for one like believability in my game-worlds, thank you very much. The best smiths of the kingdom only selling shit weapons while your character is able to craft über weapons of awesome +10 after levelling up a few times would be horribly retarded.
JarlFrank said:This system would be so horribly fucking retarded, and not only would it make the whole gameworld unbelievable, it would also lead to really boring dungeon crawling because you know that nothing you can find is better than the stuff you can forge.
JarlFrank said:Well, of course you should be able to hit someone standing rather close to you with low skill. Sniping someone on long range, however, will be difficult, if not impossible (especially when the target is moving). Recoil would not be completely eliminated - it's only that an unskilled shooter will have more problems with it than a trained one because he's not used to it, which makes proper aiming with an automatic weapon pretty much impossible. Also, reload time and failure chance are an important factor too, especially if the game has muskets as the main type of firearm.
DoctorEars said:I think stats should affect accuracy to a degree, but you don't want to take it to the point where it is impossible to hit where you're aiming simply because your character isn't good enough. We don't want to alienate the gameplay fans, do we?
Kraszu said:Fixed, but if you only use that system in limited scope then that isn't enough to make stats important enough.
bhlaab said:I wonder how it would feel to have an FPSRPG where it uses die rolls but hides it. Like you have the cone but instead of always using that you check a probability and if you succeed you're precisely on the crosshair but if you fail it veers off.
Not if crafted weapons are to supplant actual ability to shoot well and inflict damage. Then you have to give them to all the more threatening gunslinging enemies in order to *HAVE* threatening gunslinging enemies.Kraszu said:Sorry but making a game where you can't have shit crafted to you by NPC, and where you can't find crafted weapons would be trivial
And have all the enemies equipped with basic firearms and basic ammunition as well, so that they would pose nominal threat only if attacking in droves?There were balance problems with the game but that was a Toika fault not the system fault, how hard would it be to not give Sharp Shooter's Pistol to a gun smith in Tarant? To not have craft able weapons sold by merchants? Have merchants only sell basic fire arms, and basic ammunition.
Which is plain fucking retarded since most people have been using all sorts of items they wouldn't be able to craft since at least bronze age.If you really think that there should be 1:1 correlation between what you can use, and what you can craft then you can have a rule that you can only use craft-able weapons if you can craft it yourself.
No. Good skill based system for determining performance is the one where performance corresponds to the skill, not where it takes skill, resources, time and inexplicable lack of certain items in entire gameworld to affect performance.What is wrong with that, good system = a system when you get uber fast, and without effort?
I'm not interested in explanations why most games are retarded, half-broken shit.You can't loot armours in most games anyway because that would break the economy to fast anyway, and it would make the game to easy.
That's why I prefer games gravitating towards weird fiction (Morrowind), sci-fi (Deus Ex), clever subversions (PS:T), or, if all else fails, self-consciously running on concentrated camp* (later Wizardries, Anachronox, Divinity 2).Kraszu said:No you don't or you would not play any game with high level magic where everything works like in mediaeval times
But there are npcs who have and player has access to those NPCs, if only because faggots armed with matchlocks that sometimes even fire in the right general direction are not really match** for handmade gatling cannon with telescopic sights player has crafted and don't make terribly interesting encounters.1)That would depend on the gameworld, you might not have access to good smiths
Why yes they are. Firearms skill largely boils down to the ability to hit the target. It might be ability to hit the target within specified amount of time, or ability to hit the target within specified amount of time after running out of ammo in gun, but there is not much more you can work with when dealing with guns.2) High varying accuracy stats are not realistic at all
Ahem. I can. Comes as part of the deal with this whole "FORGING PLANES WITH MY POWER" shtick.nobody can define physics
Kraszu said:Sorry but making a game where you can't have shit crafted to you by NPC, and where you can't find crafted weapons would be trivial
DraQ said:Not if crafted weapons are to supplant actual ability to shoot well and inflict damage. Then you have to give them to all the more threatening gunslinging enemies in order to *HAVE* threatening gunslinging enemies.
DraQ said:Upgrades are cool, crafting is nice, making your own custom guns is badass, but in an RPG those cannot be sole factors determining firearm effectiveness if you want to be able to say that you have stat-based combat.
If you really think that there should be 1:1 correlation between what you can use, and what you can craft then you can have a rule that you can only use craft-able weapons if you can craft it yourself.
DraQ said:Which is plain fucking retarded since most people have been using all sorts of items they wouldn't be able to craft since at least bronze age.
DraQ said:And *I* don't think that there should be such correlation. *You* have came up with the sorry idea that crafting can substitute weapon skill, *I* know perfectly well that it can't.
What is wrong with that, good system = a system when you get uber fast, and without effort?
DraQ said:No. Good skill based system for determining performance is the one where performance corresponds to the skill, not where it takes skill, resources, time and inexplicable lack of certain items in entire gameworld to affect performance.
Skill - performance, skill - performance.
It's like "button - awesome" for fuck's sake, how can you not get it?
You can't loot armours in most games anyway because that would break the economy to fast anyway, and it would make the game to easy.
DraQ said:I'm not interested in explanations why most games are retarded, half-broken shit.
Wut.Kraszu said:Kraszu said:Sorry but making a game where you can't have shit crafted to you by NPC, and where you can't find crafted weapons would be trivial
DraQ said:Not if crafted weapons are to supplant actual ability to shoot well and inflict damage. Then you have to give them to all the more threatening gunslinging enemies in order to *HAVE* threatening gunslinging enemies.
In order to have threatening enemies that use firearms, in others you need know how (explained later)
What part of "since at least bronze age" you fail to understand?DraQ said:Which is plain fucking retarded since most people have been using all sorts of items they wouldn't be able to craft since at least bronze age.
Not in steampunk where things are hand made, and where the technology is very raw.
Which is about as strong an explanation as "they banned levitation so no one knows how to levitate".Also if the technology would be guild exclusive then they could incorporate mechanism that protect it from being used from somebody that doesn't know how to
It's like saying that cremation is effective means of curing infectious disease - sure, it kills the patient, but the disease is no more. Win?DraQ said:And *I* don't think that there should be such correlation. *You* have came up with the sorry idea that crafting can substitute weapon skill, *I* know perfectly well that it can't.
Huh sure it could, you might think that it breaks your immersion but balance wise it could.
No, what you're talking about is more retarded, not more advanced.What is wrong with that, good system = a system when you get uber fast, and without effort?
DraQ said:No. Good skill based system for determining performance is the one where performance corresponds to the skill, not where it takes skill, resources, time and inexplicable lack of certain items in entire gameworld to affect performance.
Skill - performance, skill - performance.
It's like "button - awesome" for fuck's sake, how can you not get it?
I don't see a button awesome as a gold standard, what I am talking about is more advanced.
Except you fail to grasp that there is little skill involved in wearing armour, while there is a lot of skill involved in being a gunslinger. Not a proper analogy.You don't need a system that would work in every game for your specific setting. Gothic no skill requirements for armour would be imbalanced if not for the guild system. Does it make lack of str req in Gothic games bad?
I thought we were discussing RPGs here, not fucking Mario, and in good RPGs (or any serious games, but most importantly in RPGs, since they typically allow broad array of actions) world logic trumps design logic unless there is really no way around it.You can't loot armours in most games anyway because that would break the economy to fast anyway, and it would make the game to easy.
DraQ said:I'm not interested in explanations why most games are retarded, half-broken shit.
I didn't explain why there are no armours left in corpses in game world logic, but why there are no armours in design logic.
DraQ said:Kraszu said:Kraszu said:Sorry but making a game where you can't have shit crafted to you by NPC, and where you can't find crafted weapons would be trivial
DraQ said:Not if crafted weapons are to supplant actual ability to shoot well and inflict damage. Then you have to give them to all the more threatening gunslinging enemies in order to *HAVE* threatening gunslinging enemies.
In order to have threatening enemies that use firearms, in others you need know how (explained later)
DraQ said:Wut.
You don't to have humanoids armed in firearms as your main opponent. You could be Tesla trapped on island with some savage tribes, ruins of old civilization, and monsters that roam it.
DraQ said:Plus, if you want to field an armed force of some sort, you don't make it out of your scant few brilliant inventors, which means you have grunts equipped with not very arcane and easy to use, yet effective weapons. And then there is weapon trade, where you try to make something that is good enough to be sold in spite of competition.
Ok if you want to go all derp with realism
DraQ said:Which is plain fucking retarded since most people have been using all sorts of items they wouldn't be able to craft since at least bronze age.
Not in steampunk where things are hand made, and where the technology is very raw.
DraQ said:What part of "since at least bronze age" you fail to understand?
Bronze age technology don't require any know how comparable to steampunk technology wtf are you talking about?
DraQ said:Or are you talking about some weird, themepark variety of steampunk when everyone is fucking Nicola Tesla?
I was thinking about Gothic 1 like guilds, each guild is small polis.
Not quite learning how to make something that somebody else had created is easier then figuring out how to do it yourself almost anybody can be engineer if he put enough effort into that (and some parts could be too complex for you to make, and be the guild secret so they would give it to you so you could craft a weapon). People that show talent are drawn by the guilds, those that did worse become soldiers, and the best become inventors, they have better lives then rest. I was thinking about Gothic 1 like guilds, each guild is small polis, and they can't draw everybody because they need miners, peasants, and other workers so why not draw those that are more technologically gifted, especially since they give technology almost god like status. They might think that somebody not gifted technologically doesn't deserve better then simple hard life. They might not care about streamlining the use of they technology because they are too elitist about technology. Stereotypes, and strange believes that shape societies, and as well are bad for they progress, are the norm for humans, so I don't think that this is more ridiculous then say Church position in medieval times.
Also if the technology would be guild exclusive then they could incorporate mechanism that protect it from being used from somebody that doesn't know how to
DraQ said:Which is about as strong an explanation as "they banned levitation so no one knows how to levitate".
If you have multiple competing factions harbouring secret knowledge, you will have guaranteed espionage, leaks and defectors.
That would lead to war, so it isn't that easy. Defectors are assassinated if another guild would help defector then that would lead to war. Knowing the technology will not make you able to use it without first getting the needed resources, and a place to produce it. I was thinking about Gothic 1 like guilds, each guild is small polis. Technology for those people is very important, and giving it away is like betraying your country. The same with knowledge on how to use spells if you want magic/more variety. So you are a defector or a known spy, your guild can't even protect you without starting war, many of technological secrets could be kept guild specific, and you would still need to know how to make required elements for example how to make metal that is strong enough, people who know might live in separated part inside the heart of the guild, and never leave it.
DraQ said:No, what you're talking about is more retarded, not more advanced.
The chief idea behind RPGs is tying character skill to performance in related task. You demonstrably break this tie, then get all defensive and keep digging yourself deeper.
How is ability to use/conserve weapon not a performance task that depends on skill? No game have 1:1 correlations between your fighting defectiveness, and stats, you also have items.
No I didn't break this, the better skills you have in firearm technology the better you are, you might not craft but why would you do that? That would like increasing STR, and not using better weapons/armours. In the world designed around it what is the practical difference? It adds another element to it, but I don't see what is subtracts. In rpg you plan your character stats also taking items into account. What is important is to force you to plan, and make choices (not having ability to be the master of all), and to have progress with XP or whatever system you use for gaining power what else do you want?
DraQ said:It's like saying that cremation is effective means of curing infectious disease - sure, it kills the patient, but the disease is no more. Win?You don't need a system that would work in every game for your specific setting. Gothic no skill requirements for armour would be imbalanced if not for the guild system. Does it make lack of str req in Gothic games bad?
DraQ said:Except you fail to grasp that there is little skill involved in wearing armour, while there is a lot of skill involved in being a gunslinger. Not a proper analogy.
There is STR involved, weak person in armour would have hard time walking for much of a distance yet alone defectively fight in it.
DraQ said:Plus, there is simple way to keep armour faction exclusive without making it impossible to find and wear without belonging to a faction. Make the faction want your head once they discover that you're wearing their armour without being part of the faction (notice that they may treat you as fellow member as long as your disguise isn't blown - theft and espionage anyone?). And make the opposing factions confuse you with a proper member of the first faction and attack you on sight if they attack the members of the first faction.
There, solved - you can find and wear any armour you want, except you should think hard if superior armour is worth risking severe permascrew.
If somebody will see you use technology of the guild that you don't belong to he will report you, and get the reword for that.
You can't loot armours in most games anyway because that would break the economy to fast anyway, and it would make the game to easy.
DraQ said:I'm not interested in explanations why most games are retarded, half-broken shit.
I thought we were discussing RPGs here, not fucking Mario, and in good RPGs (or any serious games, but most importantly in RPGs, since they typically allow broad array of actions) world logic trumps design logic unless there is really no way around it.DraQ said:I didn't explain why there are no armours left in corpses in game world logic, but why there are no armours in design logic.
Kraszu said:Ok if you want to go all derp with realism
JarlFrank said:Kraszu said:Ok if you want to go all derp with realism
No, DraQ just wants a reasonably logical world that isn't full of retardation and works like a world should, so that immersion into the gameworld is possible.
You want to go derp with derpism, which would lead to said world becoming horribly silly and idiotic and therefore impossibilizing smug immersion.