Fuck yeah, Andyman Messiah review Fallout 3!!

[Qwinn]

and found the dialogue snippet you posted quite funny.

Seriously?

Seriously?

What in God's name was funny in it?

And people claim -I- have lousy taste.

Here's a hint: There's nothing remotely funny in that dialogue. It relies entirely on the assumption that the person reading it thinks Republicans are inherently worthy of being mocked.

Qwinn

 

[Qwinn]

Heading to sleep, will have to pick up this lovely conversation tomorrow, but I'll leave you with this parting thought:

If there is indeed a contingent here that doesn't think Fallout 3 was the absolute worst piece of crap ever foisted on the human race, I'd say they've been successfully browbeaten into no longer daring to say it. I've only been here a month or two, and every single Fallout 3 is one long unending rant talking about how horrific it is. Just read the thread about Bethesda taking over some long lost IP... the hyperbole in that thread about how infinitely horrible Bethesda is on every single level is infinite and unending.

Maybe once upon a time there was honest argument around here on the subject, but from the perspective of someone who's just come around here lately... um, no. I haven't seen much of it. Nor have I ever heard anyone criticizing Fallout 2 on any grounds. Maybe those people exist, but they no longer seem to be bothering to voice their views. I'm deeply sorry that I haven't been reading this board since the games came out, but this is my perspective from having read a -lot- of threads over the last few weeks, and not seeing much difference.

Besides, I'm hardly unique in the way I'm characterizing it. Plenty of other people -do- make note of the hivemind groupthink around here. Why am I getting beat up for agreeing with what so many others have pointed out?

EDIT: Wait, wait. I do remember reading -one- criticism of Fallout 2, specifically about New Reno, thinking it was unlikely to have organized crime arise in a Wasteland. I didn't think there was anything wrong with that, myself, so it didn't impress me much. You say other people have criticized the same things I have, but before this thread, I never saw it, even when I brought those issues up before.

Qwinn

 

[Longshanks]

I don't really remember anything overtly political in the first Fallout (maybe I'm wrong... I lost my disc a long while ago so I haven't played it in a while). It wasn't a necessary addition, nor did it improve the writing or storyline in any way.

Not necesarily political, but it definitely plays off of the naive insular America of the '50s. An America that it's often argued (probably by those leftwing moonbats you mentioned) Republicans would like to return to.

Here's a hint: There's nothing remotely funny in that dialogue. It relies entirely on the assumption that the person reading it thinks Republicans are inherently worthy of being mocked.

No it doesn't. Ever heard of the notion of "being able to laugh at yourself"? It's an absurd caricature of a real world political ideaology, not Fox news.

If there is indeed a contingent here that doesn't think Fallout 3 was the absolute worst piece of crap ever foisted on the human race, I'd say they've been successfully browbeaten into no longer daring to say it. I've only been here a month or two, and every single Fallout 3 is one long unending rant talking about how horrific it is. Just read the thread about Bethesda taking over some long lost IP... the hyperbole in that thread about how infinitely horrible Bethesda is on every single level is infinite and unending.

Very few if any think it great, some think it good, others not bad or decent, then there are those who see it as abominable. Almost all see it as a terrible Fallout game. Most of what you refer to is hyperbole. Those who think it decent but no better (as I do) won't bother defending the game agaisnt someone just exaggerating for the lulz. Discussion on Fallout 3 has pretty much run its course, only thing left to do is point and laugh at some of its more ridiculous aspects, if that's your thing, some around here seem to enjoy it.

Bethesda makes games most around here do not like to play, so of course they'd not be happy with them developing a sequel to another of their favourite games. Add to that hyperbole and the usual Codex lulz, and you have the thread you mentioned. Though, even there some posters make mention of games they'd be happy for Bethesda to cannibalise.

Maybe once upon a time there was honest argument around here on the subject, but from the perspective of someone who's just come around here lately... um, no. I haven't seen much of it. Nor have I ever heard anyone criticizing Fallout 2 on any grounds. Maybe those people exist, but they no longer seem to be bothering to voice their views. I'm deeply sorry that I haven't been reading this board since the games came out, but this is my perspective from having read a -lot- of threads over the last few weeks, and not seeing much difference.

Nope, happens all the time there is a discussion on Fallout 2, particularly when compared to the original. Just that it's been over 10 years since it was released, and most anything to say about it has already been said, so you won't see it cropping up every other day.

Besides, I'm hardly unique in the way I'm characterizing it. Plenty of other people -do- make note of the hivemind groupthink around here. Why am I getting beat up for agreeing with what so many others have pointed out?

I guess because you seem to take it so seriously and literally. Most others who use it do so with a bit of a wink.

Edit:

Wait, wait. I do remember reading -one- criticism of Fallout 2, specifically about New Reno, thinking it was unlikely to have organized crime arise in a Wasteland. I didn't think there was anything wrong with that, myself, so it didn't impress me much. You say other people have criticized the same things I have, but before this thread, I never saw it, even when I brought those issues up before.

Well setting inconsistencies like New Reno and San Francisco are common criticisms, as is the overdone humour, especially the many pop culture references (hey, Republican bashing may even come under this heading :D), the temple of trials, the tribal village, talking, furry Deathclaws, talking plants, the improbability of the porn industry, and as I said before the simple comic book evil of the Enclave (not to say the view is shared by all, but it is a common criticism)...

Just because not many seem to be particularly upset about your hot button issue (Republican bashing), does not mean the game is not criticised. Though, most as you do, consider it a good game, or even a great one.

 

[Qwinn]

Ever heard of the notion of "being able to laugh at yourself"?

Ah, yes. Because if you can't laugh at your beliefs when they are insanely transmogrified into psychotic, moronic ultra-racist genocidal genetic purists (who aren't even coherent enough to apply those beliefs consistently), then you have no sense of humor.



Here's a hint. A healthy ability to "laugh at yourself" requires that there be -some aspect- of the mockery which is true. You know. A nugget of insightful analysis, an actual accurate poke at some inconsistency or somesuch.

The demonization at the end of Fallout 2 had none of that. It was an utterly insane caricature, and more offensive for attributing traits that conservatives are explicitly against.

For example, it wasn't a Surgeon General appointed by a conservative that hailed abortion as being a great societal good because it meant very few children with Down's Syndrome were being born anymore (that was Joyce Elders, appointed by Clinton). And no conservative in a million years would accuse someone of "retard worship" because conservatives were proud that Palin kept her DS kid, yet liberals bandied that one about with glee. The founder of Planned Parenthood, Margaret Sanger, was an enthusiastic eugenicist. Sorry, pal, eugenics is a leftist fetish, it was never a part of conservative thought. In fact, it is an idea that conservatives universally abhor. It is not one that I'm going to "laugh at myself" for supposedly being party to, if only you take my beliefs a little further.

Qwinn

 

[Longshanks]

Ah, yes. Because if you can't laugh at your beliefs when they are insanely transmogrified into psychotic, moronic ultra-racist genocidal genetic purists (who aren't even coherent enough to apply those beliefs consistently), then you have no sense of humor.

Possibly. You should certainly be able to realise that this transmogrified ideology is no longer what you believe in, but something else. Some fictional thing that need not be hurtful if you have a balanced nature.

For example, it wasn't a Surgeon General appointed by a conservative that hailed abortion as being a great societal good because it meant very few children with Down's Syndrome were being born anymore (that was Joyce Elders, appointed by Clinton). And no conservative in a million years would accuse someone of "retard worship" because conservatives were proud that Palin kept her DS kid, yet liberals bandied that one about with glee. The founder of Planned Parenthood, Margaret Sanger, was an enthusiastic eugenicist. Sorry, pal, eugenics is a leftist fetish, it was never a part of conservative thought. In fact, it is an idea that conservatives universally abhor. It is not one that I'm going to "laugh at myself" for supposedly being party to, if only you take my beliefs a little further.

This was in Fallout 2 was it? If so, maybe you are incorrect in assuming that everything said by the Enclave is a caricature of the right? Maybe there's a bit of both in there. I'll be replaying the game soon (not played it in some time), and be keeping an eye out for such stuff.


Personally, I think political satire, or even outright mockery is a healthy part of democracy. I can find enjoyment in lampooning of left, right, green, communist, whatever. Being so wedded to ideology that you are offended by a few jibes in a video game, points to someone who takes themself a little too seriously. So no, I don't share your outrage in Fallout 2's lampooning of Republicans, but I do share your complaint that the Enclave are fairly uninteresting and simplistic in their ideology (though, now that you've made the connection to reupublicans, it all makes sense :twisted.

 

[Qwinn]

This was in Fallout 2 was it? If so, maybe you are incorrect in assuming that everything said by the Enclave is a caricature of the right

Oh, it was clearly meant to be a caricature of the Right, on the pretext that All Republicans Are Racists. Yeah, you know, the party created explicitly to stop slavery and whose first President was Abraham Lincoln. And it ain't -our- party that still has a freaking Ku Klux Klan Grand Kleagle in the Senate. It's fucking bullshit, but it's another lefty shibboleth that gets immortalized by the ridiculous Enclave.

It's bad enough that this bullshit indoctrination permeates every single aspect of pop culture. When it gets stuck into a game that I otherwise really love, it's pretty infuriating.

I'm still waiting for Hollywood to produce one single movie that seriously takes communism to task for 100 million dead in the 20th century. Just one. Even the Killing Fields managed to make it all Nixon's fault, for God's sake.

Qwinn

 

[Gragt]

So now the issue is political? You're taking this far too seriously. Fallout 2 is a game full of lulz, it even has too much of it. Guns, drugs, sex, politics, actors, movies, ... Most, if not all, of the pop culture references in it are grossly exagerated and not a reflection of what they refer to. Just because there are political jokes does not make it a political pamphlet. It's not like you should take South Park or Team America seriously either.

"Interplay - By Leftists for Leftists." Is Tim Cain a socialist weasel? Vote now!

You do not need a base of truth to be able to laugh at yourself, it can also start from a rumour that has no basis in reality but is accepted as a popular fact. I'd also argue that the funniest part of a caricature isn't the caricature itself but the reactions of people who get their bloomers in a twist over it.

Longshank said it very well but I'm gonna echo him a bit: the Fallout 3 bashers (or anything bashers) on the Codex are the most vocals, and this usualy produces Codex lulz. Those with more reasonable views do not say anything because they stated their opinions already and are comfortable enough with them so that they don't feel like they have to reply to any Game X sucks! we get so often. Fallout 2 has been around for a long time and while we get serious conversation popping up once in a while, they are rare. Most of the time if someone comes with interesting ideas, they get discussed, the vociferous rants are just seen as lulz fodder.

I said it as a joke earlier but seriously, the hivemind has you now. Welcome to fair Codexia, brother.

 

[Qwinn]

Alright, guys. Tell ya what.

These games are liked because they are -roleplay- games, right? We like to -roleplay- a cool, heroic character, yes?

When was the last time you were -forced-... yes, forced... to hear a character say "I am X" (which you are) and respond "Like I said, you are part of the problem." You are presented no other option in dialogue. If you hear that line, you -have- to respond that.

Up until that point, I liked my Chosen One character. Then I was -forced- to play him as a leftist who clearly despises... me.

If you have never been made to do this in a game, and I'm strongly willing to bet you never have, I submit you really have no idea how utterly obnoxious and mood-breaking something like that can be.

Qwinn

 

[Mister Arkham]

Ever heard of the notion of "being able to laugh at yourself"?

Ah, yes. Because if you can't laugh at your beliefs when they are insanely transmogrified into psychotic, moronic ultra-racist genocidal genetic purists (who aren't even coherent enough to apply those beliefs consistently), then you have no sense of humor.



Here's a hint. A healthy ability to "laugh at yourself" requires that there be -some aspect- of the mockery which is true. You know. A nugget of insightful analysis, an actual accurate poke at some inconsistency or somesuch.

The demonization at the end of Fallout 2 had none of that. It was an utterly insane caricature, and more offensive for attributing traits that conservatives are explicitly against.

Yes, wow, you've recognized a caricature. Good on you! And it happens to be a caricature of your (I can't help but assume) political party, as well! Oh dear, oh my. That's horrible. Truly horrible. I'm very sorry that you had to see that. What sort of world do we live in, where a man must bear witness to such things. Gee, golly, and shucks... we'd best get Tim Cain out here to apologize right away!

Crap, man, do you shout at the television when a late-night talk show host makes fun of George Bush, as well?

How about we view the Enclave in a slightly more sociological way? Say, as an insular, isolationist throwback to an administration that kicked off the third world war? A secret organization that has been sitting in the corner, silently aping a wartime government (one that thrived in an environment of exorbitant military spending, persecution, fear, paranoia, personal repression, and constantly escalating conflict), for the past two hundred years?

They are a group that, from a purely social perspective, should breed ruthless, amoral individuals... indoctrinated from birth to a certain set of outdated, unrealistic ideals. Even in the presence of strong leadership, the Enclave should have imploded upon itself off decades before the events of Fallout 2. Yes, they also happen to be "Republicans," but lets keep in mind that this is a setting designed to reflect an extreme example of the society of 1950's America, and its view of the future... Let's also acknowledge that the Republican Party in the late 90's (and to some extent today) hearken back to the political viewpoints of that time period very effectively. I"m sure that if the Democratic party of today behaved like the administrations of either party in that time period then the Enclave would have come from a Democrat background.

Either way, you are taking this far, far too personally. This is not a game that takes place in the real world, and it really should never be treated as such. It may reflect things, certainly... but it isn't worth the headache to dwell on them as personal insults when you can easily rationalize them as a natural element of the setting.

 

[Gragt]

So now the Chosen One is a leftist? Honnestly, aren't you reading a bit too much into this? Or rather:

Either way, you are taking this far, far too personally.

 

[Qwinn]

You guys have -got- to make up your minds. Was it biting social commentary about the '50's? Or was all that stuff just for lulz? You flip back and forth as it helps your argument, but you're being inconsistent as all hell.

Qwinn

 

[Gragt]

Couldn't it be both at the same time?

 

[Qwinn]

So now the Chosen One is a leftist?

Well, okay, no. Maybe he's an anarchist. But he absolutely insists that "Republicans are part of the problem". And I am forced to click on the line where he says so. There is no other option. Again - have you ever been -forced- to do something like that where you have to insult yourself in a game?

Couldn't it be both at the same time?

Only if the lulz are part of the biting social commentary. Biting social commentary is supposed to be making a point. The point is one that deliberately insults me. What's hard to understand about that? Again - has it ever happened to you?

I think Scientologists are nuts, but I can see why they'd be legitimately offended at their portrayal in the game. Wouldn't you? But the Hubologists are presented as 10,000,000 times more benevolent and sane than Republicans are in the game.

Qwinn

 

[Gragt]

Can't you simply take it as "The Enclave is part of the problem"?

Edit: or, since this line takes place during a conversation with a clearly insane vice-president getting nowhere (like the Codex), couldn't it be: "You (the vice president) are part of the problem?".

Re-edit: the problem here is that you are debating of the intent of the Fallout 2 team (or maybe just Tim Cain the Socialist Weasel) while there is no way to clearly know that. Heck, even if now they stated that they deliberately poked fun at Republicans because they hate them, we wouldn't know if they are serious or just stirring shit for the lulz. Point is that on the whole Fallout 2 is very politically incorrect and doesn't take itself seriously and I have a hard time believing that it tries to make a strong and serious political statement at the end, especially when it's so clearly over the top and not rational at all.

And since you asked, I had my beliefs made fun of many times. Usually I laugh it off, especially if it's clever, and it might even open my eyes on some issues I did not consider before. If I do not find it funny, I just ignore it. I might talk of it and give my opinion if the occasion presents itself but I'm not gonna start a campaign against it. Maybe it's because I'm Belgian, and maybe not.

 

[Qwinn]

I should add, it's not -just- a partisan issue. I'm not just offended at how they portray Republicans. I'm offended at how they portray America, and patriotism toward America, in general. ("God Bless America, and No One Else!" WHO THE HELL SAYS THAT?) I'm also insulted by the mockery they make of the "damn red menace", as if anyone who thought communism was a real threat in the '50's (or later) was -themselves- dangerous, as if 100 million dead at their hands in the 20th century wasn't reason enough to take an antagonistic attitude, FFS.

The whole point is that "patriotism is dangerous". That if you feel genuinely loyal to America, you're a dangerous loon. I find the entire idea starkly offensive. If you don't, odds are, you agree with it.

Qwinn

 

[ArcturusXIV]

Heading to sleep, will have to pick up this lovely conversation tomorrow, but I'll leave you with this parting thought:

If there is indeed a contingent here that doesn't think Fallout 3 was the absolute worst piece of crap ever foisted on the human race, I'd say they've been successfully browbeaten into no longer daring to say it. I've only been here a month or two, and every single Fallout 3 is one long unending rant talking about how horrific it is. Just read the thread about Bethesda taking over some long lost IP... the hyperbole in that thread about how infinitely horrible Bethesda is on every single level is infinite and unending.

Maybe once upon a time there was honest argument around here on the subject, but from the perspective of someone who's just come around here lately... um, no. I haven't seen much of it. Nor have I ever heard anyone criticizing Fallout 2 on any grounds. Maybe those people exist, but they no longer seem to be bothering to voice their views. I'm deeply sorry that I haven't been reading this board since the games came out, but this is my perspective from having read a -lot- of threads over the last few weeks, and not seeing much difference.

Besides, I'm hardly unique in the way I'm characterizing it. Plenty of other people -do- make note of the hivemind groupthink around here. Why am I getting beat up for agreeing with what so many others have pointed out?

EDIT: Wait, wait. I do remember reading -one- criticism of Fallout 2, specifically about New Reno, thinking it was unlikely to have organized crime arise in a Wasteland. I didn't think there was anything wrong with that, myself, so it didn't impress me much. You say other people have criticized the same things I have, but before this thread, I never saw it, even when I brought those issues up before.

Qwinn

I am probably going to stand alone on this, but I think Bethesda does what they do quite well. Creating an open world to explore and have fun in. I'm probably the only person on this board who enjoyed both Oblivion and Morrowind, but I don't look at them as RPGs. They are adventure games with RPG elements in them.

Now, as for Fallout 3, I was sorely disappointed. They took the worst elements of Oblivion and grafted the Fallout universe onto them. Basically, like everyone else is saying, the game ended up being Oblivion with guns. I don't have a problem with the Elder Scrolls series, but I do have a problem with taking one franchise, creating a direct sequel to it, and changing the gameplay mechanics to the point of it no longer being recognizable. Not to mention the dumbing down. Or the lack of good story/dialogue. Come on, Bethesda, you can do better than that! Even if it was in first-person perspective, the least they could've done is changed the rest of the gameplay into something unique and been loyal to the Fallout mythos. This...was abomination.

 

[Qwinn]

Re-edit: the problem here is that you are debating of the intent of the Fallout 2 team (or maybe just Tim Cain the Socialist Weasel) while there is no way to clearly know that

Dude. It's pure agitprop at it's most awful extreme. I have already challenged you to come up with a way to demonize America, Republicans, etc. in a more extreme way. I've challenged -many- people to do this before. No one has ever come up with a way that would be more extreme. -How- could you demonize anything more than by portraying it as intent on wiping out every last sentient creature on Earth?

You can claim that it's not really meant to be pertinent to anything in the real world. If that were the case, they wouldn't be saying "God Bless America" every three freaking seconds. You yourself admit it's a social commentary on '50's America. No, nothing in 50's American philosophy and culture leads, even in a roundabout way, to the Enclave. It's ridiculous. It's pure agitprop that undermines and insults anyone who might actually say the words "God Bless America" unironically. It's scary that you can fail to recognize it as such.

EDIT: It might be different if you ever heard, say, a Brotherhood guy, or Three Dog, or anyone else who isn't connected to the Enclave, argue that -they- really represent American ideals, that -they- really would also say "God Bless America", it's just different from what the Enclave believes. But that never, ever happens. No one else says it. In every way, the Enclave is presented as the only descendant of American ideals and patriotism. They really -are- presented as the entire legacy of all that is American. That's just deeply obnoxious on many levels.

You say we can't know Tim Cain's political beliefs. Dude. -No- one with even a mild acquaintance or respect for conservative thought or actual patriotism toward America would ever write something so utterly obnoxious and one sided. I think that's pretty obvious.

Qwinn

 

[Gragt]

I still think you take it too seriously. Fallout makes fun of clichés about America, the 50's, the Red Menace... Kind of the same basis for the movie Red Dawn even though at the time the movie came out it was impossible for the Soviets to successfully invade USA.

What I see when I think of Fallout is that too much belief in something without self-criticism can be bad. The Master thought he was doing the right thing and acted righteously about it until, if you decide to, you show him that his plan is flawed. The Enclave, while definitely a weaker villain than the Master, also are righteous because they believe they are the only true humans left and that it is their duty to clean the earth from all mutants and rebuild the world anew.

When I think of the Enclave, I think of american values (from a european point of view) that are twisted and made evil by a bunch of fanatics who lived on their oil rig for centuries and cut themselves from the world. While you might glimpse an echo of the american values there, these people are different. They are not Republicans or even Americans, they are the Enclave, a bunch of righteous bastards who believe they can commit genocide on a large scale simply because they do not consider the outsiders as humans.

 

[shihonage]

I should add, it's not -just- a partisan issue. I'm not just offended at how they portray Republicans. I'm offended at how they portray America, and patriotism toward America, in general. ("God Bless America, and No One Else!" WHO THE HELL SAYS THAT?) I'm also insulted by the mockery they make of the "damn red menace", as if anyone who thought communism was a real threat in the '50's (or later) was -themselves- dangerous, as if 100 million dead at their hands in the 20th century wasn't reason enough to take an antagonistic attitude, FFS.

The whole point is that "patriotism is dangerous". That if you feel genuinely loyal to America, you're a dangerous loon. I find the entire idea starkly offensive. If you don't, odds are, you agree with it.

Qwinn

While I agree with you on this as an isolated topic, I didn't spot much political agenda in Fallout 1/2. But then again I didn't get far enough in Fallout 2 before it bored me to death.

 

[Qwinn]

While I agree with you on this as an isolated topic, I didn't spot much political agenda in Fallout 1/2. But then again I didn't get far enough in Fallout 2 before it bored me to death.

Then you wouldn't have seen it at all. I don't really recall any issues with Fallout 1, and it didn't manifest itself at all (other than in that GNN Transcript that is thankfully no longer canon) until about the last 5% of Fallout 2. But that last 5% is -marinated- in it, and seeing how it's the culmination of the game and really the reason for everything that's gone before it, it's pretty important in my view.

Gragt, consider the edit to my last post to be the response to your most recent. And thank you for debating the issue civilly.

Qwinn

 

[Gragt]

The people of the Enclave claim they represent America while even their name means that they isolated themselves. As you say, they are completely opposite to American values, and I certainly hope so, I even believe that's the point: they claim to be the last remnants of America but can you really trust them with that? They believe they are Americans and are as much as you believe them to be. Rather than bash Republicans, doesn't the Enclave show that even if you justify your deeds with some kind of legacy, it doesn't change the fact that your deeds are still horrible. Again with my European eyes, I found that the NCR are a much better candidate for holding the American heritage, they are not very vocal about it because they act and show their beliefs that way. And if I remember correctly they also have the flag.

That reminds me of the movie The Beast of War. Not a great movie but still nice to see. It takes place during the Soviet campaign in Afghanistan where a Soviet tank and its crew are lost in the desert and pursued by rebels after the commander ordered the destruction of a village. A good part of the movie, the commander boasts how the Soviets repelled the Nazis at Stalingrad, that they had to protect their land from the invader and do what was right for their country, just like they are doing the right thing by invading Afghanistan. Much later in the movie, one of the crew confronts him and asks: "How come we are the Nazis this time?"

While the comparison is a bit clumsy, that's how I see the Enclave: they claim to be Americans, they claim to act for America, they claim to be right. But are they?

Anyway no need to thank for being civil, quite a few people on the Codex are.

 

[ArcturusXIV]

Anyway no need to thank for being civil, quite a few people on the Codex are.

Hah! I thought we were all full of repressed hostility and misanthropy. My bad!

 

[Qwinn]

found that the NCR are a much better candidate for holding the American heritage, they are not very vocal about it because they act and show their beliefs that way. And if I remember correctly they also have the flag.

I was pretty sure they had their own flag. As for being the political inheritors... how? The only thing we know about them politically is that they enacted gun control.

As I said: I wouldn't be bitching if anyone else in the game seriously - or even unseriously - contended for the mantle of representing American values. There's plenty of potential for a group that could have done so, like the Rangers, or the Brotherhood. But no one does. The hyper-evil Enclave is depicted as being the sole and only legacy of everything American, and obsessively so. That just sucks.

Meanwhile, the legacy of a submarine full of Red Chinese naval soldiers is a mostly pacifist high-tech kung-fu-fighting society whose worst flaw seems to be an interest in high-risk horticulture.

EDIT:

Heh. Yeah. NCR uses the American flag? Not so much...

A two headed bear and a red star? *laughing* I'll... just leave that one alone. Too easy.

Alright, that's really it for me, g'nite gang.

Qwinn

 

[Jaime Lannister]

Qwinn I really hope you're not trying to go for a communist analogy for that flag because:

 

[Qwinn]

Hah! No, I didn't know that was California's flag. But give me credit - I -didn't- go there I was simply refuting the claim that NCR used the American flag.

Qwinn