Wasteland Heavy armor not worth it?

[Froglok]

Am I missing something or is heavy armor not worth it at all? Each "tier" of heavy armor is only slightly more protection, but has a str requirement and nerfs your combat speed

 

[kain30]

for me was worth it. whem you can buy the better armor in the game (protection 10) only some energy weapons will hurt you bad and melee weapons do 0 damage to your characters

 

[Eyeball]

Endgame? Not really worth it. Not because enemies don't hit hard, but because a lot of them carry high-powered energy weapons which do double damage against heavily armoured characters.
.
This is why in a lot of late game gunfights, the most sensible thing is to REMOVE YOUR ARMOUR WHEN STARTING A FIGHT when spotting lots of laser gunners in the opposition, quickly take out the non-energy weapon using enemies and then simply sucking up the pitiful energy weapon damage from the remaining laser gunners, suddenly ineffective against naked flesh.

This is NOT good combat design!

 

[laclongquan]

That sounds bad~ And in need of a fix~

 

[Roguey]

Can't do that without making extreme changes to the design of energy weapons, so it's unlikely. :D

 

[Eyeball]

Should require extensive rebalancing of the late game in particular, yes. The most reasonable fix would be to make energy weapons a subtype of gun with lower overall damage compared to conventional weapons but with the ability to ignore armour effects entirely. The "threshold" thing is silly - one robotic enemy will take moderate damage from the end game death ray laser while another will get cut in half, all due to a difference of 1 point of armour.

 

[Immortal]

Can't do that without making extreme changes to the design of energy weapons, so it's unlikely. :D

They could be tweaked to not penalize wearing armor but still break through it's DR so they would still be good/preferred against armored units over regular weapons but not batshit insane.
That wouldn't make the game the pinnacle of balanced but it would preserve their intended use without punishing you for progressing your gear.

Should require extensive rebalancing of the late game in particular, yes. The most reasonable fix would be to make energy weapons a subtype of gun with lower overall damage compared to conventional weapons but with the ability to ignore armour effects entirely. The "threshold" thing is silly - one robotic enemy will take moderate damage from the end game death ray laser while another will get cut in half, all due to a difference of 1 point of armour.

Yea sounds good ^

 

[Tacgnol]

I had to remove all my parties armour for many end game fights, it felt really counter intuitive. It also made the fights stupidly easy as synths would be hitting for tiny amounts of damage with their energy weapons.

 

[Cyberarmy]

Sadly I found armor mostly useless.
-Most heavy armor slows down the wearer, you'll want your frontliners want to wear heavy armor but that really limits their effectivness. Especially slow melee figters become useless quickly, no matter how they hit hard.
-Late game enemies have mostly AP weapons that pierce 6-7 armor or energy weapons that hit for 100-200 making armor not very usefull.
-Armor not really mitigate a lot of damage, mostly because enemies always have same/near value AP already when you found a heavy armor.
-Some LA fights become absurdly easy when you unequip your armor...
-Don't like to give power armor as an example but you felt godly when you picked it up in Fallout games. In WL 2 I quickly found myself avoiding power and chitin armor after usinde them a while. Also armor not showing up at all not really helps.

İn conclusion armor not really worth it, having some helps a bit to mitigate damage but there is no need to buy them. They drop a lot either from some fixed containers/caches and in LA everyone and their grandparents reward you with power armor.

 

[Tacgnol]

Sadly I found armor mostly useless.
-Most heavy armor slows down the wearer, you'll want your frontliners want to wear heavy armor but that really limits their effectivness. Especially slow melee figters become useless quickly, no matter how they hit hard.
-Late game enemies have mostly AP weapons that pierce 6-7 armor or energy weapons that hit for 100-200 making armor not very usefull.
-Armor not really mitigate a lot of damage, mostly because enemies always have same/near value AP already when you found a heavy armor.
-Some LA fights become absurdly easy when you unequip your armor...
-Don't like to give power armor as an example but you felt godly when you picked it up in Fallout games. In WL 2 I quickly found myself avoiding power and chitin armor after usinde them a while. Also armor not showing up at all not really helps.

İn conclusion armor not really worth it, having some helps a bit to mitigate damage but there is no need to buy them. They drop a lot either from some fixed containers/caches and in LA everyone and their grandparents reward you with power armor.

The biggest issue is the threshold mechanic with energy weapons. I wish they had just given EWs more AP in relation to their tier at the expense of some damage, it would have also made them more useful in general.

 

[Zarniwoop]

Not worth it for me so far, but then I haven't gotten very far due to long loading times and occasional crashes (and since the HUEG patch, extremely frequent crashes). My heavy weapons dude takes 10 AP to move 1 square, so he's basically just a turret out in the open, unless I manage to move him behind some cover before combat starts.

 

[Shadenuat]

Spend that money on more bazookas instead, they're better than armor.

 

[Onholyservicebound]

Energy Weapons effect is very cool, and shouldn't be changed, it would be better if that were the sole downside to heavy armour.(And of course encounters should be balanced to have more than just mass energy weapon fags.)
The speed penalty and relatively low thresholds should be fixed, or tied to strength, energy weapons are good against armour, that's all there is to that, if you have heavy armour you should have your sniper focus on enemies with EW first.

 

[Norfleet]

Heavy armor is great, your guys can be invincible tanks with it. Yes, it makes you more susceptible to energy weapons, but here's the thing: You can always REMOVE it, but you can't conjure it from thin-air when you need it.

Yes, it slows you down, often a lot, but given that the AI understands no strategy more complex than "LEEROY JENKINS!", you are often not allowed to move anyway because your guys are needed to block your idiot companions who need to stay alive from executing aforementioned strategy, you don't really have to do any moving to get your enemies into range. Just setup your killbox, initiate combat by sniping until the enemy leeroys you and charges into your killbox, then let him have it. Because remember: Your revolver holds 6 bullets, but your fists never run out of ammo.

 

[Shadenuat]

Can you? I'm not sure you can remove armor in combat, have to savescum for that. And does it really make you a "tank"? Is 10 armor so good it can help against 300-400 assault rifle burst? Or 60 dmg 4 pistol shots that npc like to do somehow even if your own pistols at the endgame require 5 ap I believe? Or them synths with laser guns bursting for 80 per single hit and more? (more, always more if you wear good armor!)

Eh.


I wish devs just copied&balanced Fallout system. Percentages or Percentages+Flat numbers. And focus players attention on damage and bullet types.

and I want a flamethrower into the game for badger hunting

 

[Zetor]

I have no idea why anyone'd use the high-end armors on a melee / handgun / SMG / shotgun character (who arguably need the most protection). The -movespeed absolutely kills their mobility, and that's a lot more important for their survivability than the extra armor points that'll be bypassed by explosives, energy weapons and high-end melee anyway. The STR requirements are also stupid and inconsistent, it's like someone started to put them on some armor, but then made equivalent armor that doesn't have any str requirements (the only case where this makes sense is power armor).

I did stick the high-end armors on my AR and sniper though, and it really decreased the amount of damage they took from things like scorpitron machine gun bursts. Since they don't need to move much during a fight (basically in turret mode from start to end), this was ok.

 

[Norfleet]

Can you? I'm not sure you can remove armor in combat, have to savescum for that.

Shouldn't have to. You can usually see your enemies well before combat is initiated, and you sort of have to, given that combat immediately begins at point blank range if you have to forfeit your first turn trying to wrestle everyone into formation. What's annoying is the way the "show grid" button doesn't work properly and as a result, guys pop into the grid in bizarre, inexplicable ways at times.

 

[Shadenuat]

Shouldn't have to. You can usually see your enemies well before combat is initiated

Not always, sometimes Plot ambushes you.

I did stick the high-end armors on my AR and sniper though

But why? Say melee rushes into your sniper, which can happen very often in close quarters combat, you lose 30% accuracy. My Sniper wears no armor and can kite + shoot or even headshot every turn, that feels so much more useful.

And scorpitron burst, it's not that dangerous. At that point your medic can use 4AP to heal 150+ hitpoints. In that fight my medic did on average 2 shots with energy weapon for 150-200 damage AND sometimes healed somebody with a healthkit too every turn/1.5 turns.

 

[Zetor]

Well, my sniper was an int/cha guy with 7 AP (just enough to fire the anti-materiel rifle), so he couldn't really shoot and move to begin with. I had two melee (and a handgun user) taking care of all melee enemies as a priority, so that part was never a problem.

 

[Norfleet]

Not always, sometimes Plot ambushes you.

One thing i've noticed Wasteland 2 seems to lack so far is "forced teleport" grouping. So when the plot starts a fight on you, it starts a fight wtih the guy you sent in to parley. The guy with all the hitpoints, and a crowbar.

Everyone ELSE is hanging back with their rifles.

Having a pointman is actually quite critical when scouting unknown territory. He serves as a nucleation site for enemy activity. Everyone rushes that guy. He serves as your forward scout for your sniper rifles, too.

But why? Say melee rushes into your sniper, which can happen very often in close quarters combat, you lose 30% accuracy.

And that means it's CROWBAR TIME. Everyone whip out your crowbars and start wallopin'! You say reduced accuracy, I say human shield. I reckon the enemy has lost a significant number of men to shooting them in the back as they are locked in crowbar combat. Seriously, this happens every time I fight a horde: A certain set of the enemies, not necessarily all of them melee warriors, will charge my lines, running out of AP right in my face and not attacking. At this point I proceed to wallop on them with my crowbars. The enemy gunners who didn't charge as quickly then open up on me, shooting their guys in the back.

 

[Shadenuat]

You're probably not far into the game yet. There are actually forced teleports on a way, although not many. And it becomes harder to crowbar all melees when there are ~5 of them rushing you and they all have 300 hitpoints. So I find positioning option for every char useful, from sniper to medic and even hacker.

 

[Norfleet]

You're probably not far into the game yet. There are actually forced teleports on a way, although not many.

Well, I'm about to leave for LA, and have yet to encounter any. It seems as if the nature of the game being "can kill anything for any reason whatsoever", works against this, as I can open fire any time I wish.

And it becomes harder to crowbar all melees when there are ~5 of them rushing you and they all have 300 hitpoints. So I find positioning option for every char useful, from sniper to medic and even hacker.

Fought this kind of thing before. The thing is, they don't have 300 HP after they've lined up like this for a shotgun enfilade. Because they charge the center of the formation, the shotguns on the wings can rake them with massive fire, leaving only a few survivors to be mopped up with crowbaring. Or the enemy will mop them up for me by shooting them in the back.

 

[Shadenuat]

You'll find shotguns loosing a bit of their oopmh later in game, although it still would work with grenades.
After I got Jackhammer though, my mood did improve greatly

Well, my sniper was an int/cha guy with 7 AP (just enough to fire the anti-materiel rifle), so he couldn't really shoot and move to begin with. I had two melee (and a handgun user) taking care of all melee enemies as a priority, so that part was never a problem.

You don't use headshot I take it, since with anti materiel it costs 9 AP.

 

[Norfleet]

You'll find shotguns loosing a bit of their oopmh later in game, although it still would work with grenades.

I have several inventoryloads of those which I haven't been able to bring myself to use because they are so expensive.

 

[Zetor]

You'll find shotguns loosing a bit of their oopmh later in game, although it still would work with grenades.
After I got Jackhammer though, my mood did improve greatly

Well, my sniper was an int/cha guy with 7 AP (just enough to fire the anti-materiel rifle), so he couldn't really shoot and move to begin with. I had two melee (and a handgun user) taking care of all melee enemies as a priority, so that part was never a problem.

You don't use headshot I take it, since with anti materiel it costs 9 AP.

Yeah, Jackhammer on a group of clustered enemies was heavan, esp with Scotchmo and his lucky crits.

I did use headshot the few times I needed to reposition (move, crouch, have 2 AP left over for headshot on next turn) and I used it all the time when I still used a 5AP sniper -- but like I said, my sniper wasn't really a combat monster. I used burst+headshot with my assault rifle dude a fair bit, typically against hp buckets like scorpitrons and meson cannons.