Insta-heal potions

[JarlFrank]

I just wrote something about that issue on my blog:
http://jarlfrank.blogspot.com/2010/02/a ... ility.html

And wonder what you guys think about it. Generally drinking potions is a no-brainer cheese tactic and having enough potions with you makes you almost invulnerable. Got hurt? Just open the inventory and chug down those healing potions, baby!

What do you think about this and how could that be fixed/changed for the better?

 

[Phelot]

Nice article

I don't think there's anything wrong with the idea of potions, though there's a few things I'd change:

1. I'd put a check of some sort, perhaps based on agility or something to determine whether the enemy gets an attack of opportunity on you while you try to guzzle a potion down. Most pnp that I know of do this and TOEE implemented it IIRC. I don't see why it can't be put in.

2. depending on the healing item, a certain amount of time should be needed to apply the item so you can't just spam a potion hotkey. If it's turnbased then it should take more then one turn to heal.

I like the idea of crippled limbs, disease, and poison, but haven't really seen them implemented that well. I'd kill to get a survival like game that tracks a characters health realistically.

 

[spectre]

A few things missing:
Fallout is actually guilty of upholding this potion-invulnerability thing. For 4AP per turn you get infinite stimpack uses, while enemies still have to pay AP for each stim.

You may also want to mention Darklands as one of the games that are broken in such a way.

And while we are at Jagged Alliance 2, you may want to mention Brigade E5, where damage also produces shock and increases adrenaline levels.

The system seen in Silent Storm is also quite noteworthy, imo.

Lastly, the a fairly recent trend was to have potions that add HP over time, many Action RPGs do it, actually. Might be nice to put it into your equation.

I think it's just the opposite, that many older rpgs are guilty of this alchemical invulnerability and the general trend was to avoid this by limiting potion use in various ways (even Baldurs Gate had a limit and casting times on healing spells).

Although I must say, I skipped the recent stuff, ME and DA, so I cannot say how is it now.

 

[Shannow]

Most games make it much too easy to gulp down dozens of potions in the middle of combat. In Morrowind, for example, you just open your inventory, which pauses the game and gives you time to drink an infinite amount of potions. This means that the combat loses most of its challenge as long as you take enough of those magical insta-heal potions with you. It's just the same in the Fallout games, only there you have stimpacks instead of potions.

This I take exception to. FO's infinite stimpak usage was an exploit and later repaired in FO:T. Use of a stimpak was supposed to cost 2 AP. And using too many stimpaks in a short time (at least superstimpaks in FO2) could kill you.
D&D (cRPGs) moved away from easy healing potion usage. It costs a round and one is open to AoOs.
In TW health potions simply increased the regen rate drastically for a short period of time.
Morrowind = Beth = did you expect good game design?

I'd also like to see more game take the JA2 injury approach. In fact, I'd really like to see an RPG that's like JA2 in many respects. But I don't see health potions as detrimental for every kind of RPG and I don't see them as implemented as badly in "most" games as you seem to claim. Most of the time you have to weigh advantages vs disadvantages.

 

[RottingNaziSurfer]

I have been confident for years that I will never see the day in my gaming lifetime when I don't have to carry around fucking 43 different sized health potions until I could get a good enough healing spell not to warrant carrying around dozens of vials!

 

[Mattresses]

stacking negative effects for any potion, exponential decline in strength of positive effects of any potion between rests.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

I hate potions. Less combat and damage system like in JA2 is probably the simplest solution.

 

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

I'd just make potions heal over time, and if you get hurt while the potion is mending you, the remaining magic is used in an instant drastically lessening the damage received (to simulate the potion restoring your body as it happened).


If it completely negated the damage you took, that would probably qualify as an exploit, unless you made it so only minor attacks were nullified instead of all.

 

[Yeesh]

Potions are such a preposterous idea that I'm in favor of doing away with them entirely. Can anyone actually imagine an action hero carrying around dozens of different colored liquids in glass vials, miraculously shielding them from breaking in fight after fight, and reaching into his belt/cloak/back pocket to select the correct one, pop it open, and drink it down, all in the same amount of time he could swing his sword once or twice? This doesn't happen in any well-considered books or movies, but somehow in games it's ubiquitous*.

They're just stupid. Get rid of them.

(*Except in Diablo 3, of course. Chew on that, haters.)

 

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

You could always make them a Mage exclusive in combat; a magic-user would be able to set up a temporary barrier to give them time to quaff a few while the enemy frantically tried to bring it down.

But that barrier spell would have to be heavy on the draining side, and capable of being destroyed if the enemy moves quick enough. So you're trading some of your enemy stores for a whole body, with an added danger of vulnerability should you underestimate the problem.



Anyone of another class would get a standard 'there's no time for that' script message when they tried to use that potion in combat, and would be forced to make a run for it and find somewhere to hide and heal.

 

[RottingNaziSurfer]

Potions are such a preposterous idea that I'm in favor of doing away with them entirely. Can anyone actually imagine an action hero carrying around dozens of different colored liquids in glass vials, miraculously shielding them from breaking in fight after fight, and reaching into his belt/cloak/back pocket to select the correct one, pop it open, and drink it down, all in the same amount of time he could swing his sword once or twice? This doesn't happen in any well-considered books or movies, but somehow in games it's ubiquitous*.

They're just stupid. Get rid of them.

(*Except in Diablo 3, of course. Chew on that, haters.)

 

[Shannow]

Potions are such a preposterous idea that I'm in favor of doing away with them entirely. Can anyone actually imagine an action hero carrying around dozens of different colored liquids in glass vials, miraculously shielding them from breaking in fight after fight, and reaching into his belt/cloak/back pocket to select the correct one, pop it open, and drink it down, all in the same amount of time he could swing his sword once or twice? This doesn't happen in any well-considered books or movies, but somehow in games it's ubiquitous*.

They're just stupid. Get rid of them.

(*Except in Diablo 3, of course. Chew on that, haters.)

In the Witcher books Geralt actually prepares potions (though I don't remember any "of healing") and in other ("serious") books there a potions of health. Just not quaffed in combat and very rare and expensive.
And a game is a game. Not a book, not a movie.

 

[mondblut]

Can anyone actually imagine an action hero carrying around dozens of different colored liquids in glass vials, miraculously shielding them from breaking in fight after fight, and reaching into his belt/cloak/back pocket to select the correct one, pop it open, and drink it down, all in the same amount of time he could swing his sword once or twice?

 

[Panthera]

The is one of the few ways in which MMOs do it better - potions are usually healing over time and very strictly limited in use.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

For a standard fantasy RPG, they should at best heal you over the course of a night while you sleep, while weaker ones would take longer or not heal certain grievous injuries. Buff type potions should be implemented similar to the witcher, where there is a maximum amount of potions you can chug, limiting the usefulness. And no fucking invincibility-level potions like we see in some fantasy games. Your skin does not turn to stone because you drank some holy water. You cannot arm wrestle an ogre with a puny mage because you spent 100 gold at a potion shop.

For an action RPG, go ahead and let people do it all in battle, but it has a decently long interruptable animation so that you are forced to be at least slightly safe during the action.

 

[zenbitz]

Generally, if you remove easy healing then you just encourage reloads.

Not saying it can't be done - but you make balancing combat much harder.

Abstractly, most healing potions (or even "doctors visits") in RPGs can be just bought at the store. So really you are trading phat l00t to not have to reload when you have easy access healing potions.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Healing potions exist to allow developers to throw in tons of filler combat.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

Generally, if you remove easy healing then you just encourage reloads.

Not saying it can't be done - but you make balancing combat much harder.

Abstractly, most healing potions (or even "doctors visits") in RPGs can be just bought at the store. So really you are trading phat l00t to not have to reload when you have easy access healing potions.

Yeah, and having health bars just encourages reloads. Doesn't mean its a bad idea. Balancing combat between different player skill levels should be done with a difficulty setting, not a "how much do you want to exploit badly designed gameplay?" setting.

99.9% of games will have potions cost 1-10 gold a piece while the player earns something like 10x that every battle and 1000x that with a single phat l00t drop. So the actual economical drain is practically nothing. If that was rectified it would allow for a balanced non-spamming of potion gameplay, but it would still look stupid.

Healing potions exist to allow developers to throw in tons of filler combat.

Yeah, pretty much. Except in DA's case, where they have auto-regen to do that.

 

[Secretninja]

I'll go out on a limb and say WoW does it at least passably. Only one potion is allowed per fight. There are 3 choices: 500% haste for like 15 seconds, health, or mana. While it is a simple system, it does not allow you to spam potions to keep your mana pool full/health topped off. IIRC, Morrowind/Oblivion you would get full and have to wait a while, but you could just run away until you could drink more, and the limit was completely forgiving.

 

[DraQ]

And a game is a game. Not a book, not a movie.

This is not an excuse for not following the logic of the setting.

Now, I think the first problem is filler combat served in improbable amounts, the second is BSB combat mechanics relying on whittling down abstract HPs, rather than trying to penetrate armour, tire or throw the enemy off balance and inflict actual structural damage.

As for the potions, I think there are several solutions that should be combined for best effect, some were mentioned in this thread:

-combat is not necessarily good moment to drink coloured liquids, use medkits or even bandage wounds, any such action should put the character in state of extreme vulnerability and out of action for significant amount of time, it should also be easily interruptible, to the point of being not an option without putting something (like magical barrier, distance, allies or scenery) between you and the enemy. Absolutely no potions in inventory time.

-potions should be rare, alchemy should require rare components time and peace, bottles should be limited in supply (but reusable), everything should take up a lot of inventory space.

-there should be no traditional healing potions, at best potion would boost some regenerative capabilities allowing characters to heal less serious wounds in days, maybe even boost regeneration to supernatural levels that are common sight in RPGs, cure specific ailments (often common and deadly), both application requiring repeated use (may be semi-automated to not bother the player). Those potions would be useless in combat, where only various buffs and potions that keep you going in spite of bodily damage and don't allow you to drop down in a pool of your own bodily fluids you'd rather keep inside and expire quietly (so basically postponing general character fail till some actual help could be obtained) would find some use. Also, bandaging. Under no circumstances should any, but the most potent and supernatural potions allow to regenerate actual structural damage beyond normal healing capabilities of a healthy organism. Those that can should be nearly impossible to obtain as well as require a lot of time and additional treatment to even work. No amount of potions should keep you from experiencing severe loss of body parts after some muscular fuck starts hacking you with an axe.

 

[deuxhero]

There is the D&D option of making in combat healing worthless (and potions costing way too much) and making healing good only outside of combat.

Can anyone actually imagine an action hero carrying around dozens of different colored liquids in glass vials, miraculously shielding them from breaking in fight after fight, and reaching into his belt/cloak/back pocket to select the correct one, pop it open, and drink it down, all in the same amount of time he could swing his sword once or twice?

snip

He said hero.

 

[Shannow]

And a game is a game. Not a book, not a movie.

This is not an excuse for not following the logic of the setting.

Indeed it wouldn't be. But since health potions are in "the logic of the settings" ... *shrug*
What you guys want is realism. And while I'm really with you in wanting games that follow real world logic more closely that doesn't invalidate any game mechanic that isn't realistic.
A game is a game. Not a book. Not a movie. And certainly not the real world.
A game has the freedom to use any kind of abstraction between the rules of chess and accurate real world simulation.
The mechanics should be within the logic of the setting and balanced. Qualifying them by how "realistic" they are when compared to the real world leads down the road to simulation.
E.g., "levels" don't make sense. Not needing to eat doesn't make sense. A balanced character system doesn't make sense. Lugging around extra armor/4-5 times your own weight in items doesn't make sense. And so on.

So let a game be a game. There is room in a game for any kind of mechanic. It just needs to be balanced. So whenever you really want to go into designing healing mechanics you first have to decide what kind of game you want. Then balance it against encounter design, etc. But whatever you decide you want, doesn't invalidate everything that differs. JA doesn't invalidate ToEE.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

So, now the only valid taste is anti-realist?

 

[JarlFrank]

Agree with DraQ. I'm a sucker for "realistic" fantasy, at least as much as fantasy can be called realistic. Fantasy where magic has rules and limitations and isn't a "HEY IMMA WIZZARD I CAN DO LIEK LOTS OF SUPERHUMAN THINGS" gimmick.

Potions that quicken blood regeneration and tissue healing? Fuck yes. Potions that immediately remove every wound and crushed bone you have on your body in 5 seconds? No.

 

[Kosmonaut]

I just wrote something about that issue on my blog:
http://jarlfrank.blogspot.com/2010/02/a ... ility.html

And wonder what you guys think about it. Generally drinking potions is a no-brainer cheese tactic and having enough potions with you makes you almost invulnerable. Got hurt? Just open the inventory and chug down those healing potions, baby!

What do you think about this and how could that be fixed/changed for the better?

Why this clown doesn't get branded as a plant (like Cambios) for pimping his own blog?