Insta-heal potions

[DraQ]

I just wrote something about that issue on my blog:
http://jarlfrank.blogspot.com/2010/02/a ... ility.html

And wonder what you guys think about it. Generally drinking potions is a no-brainer cheese tactic and having enough potions with you makes you almost invulnerable. Got hurt? Just open the inventory and chug down those healing potions, baby!

What do you think about this and how could that be fixed/changed for the better?

Why this clown doesn't get branded as a plant (like Cambios) for pimping his own blog?

Stop being a moron.

 

[treave]

I'd like to see overdosing effects for quaffing too many potions or other chemicals, with stronger effects per dose for the more powerful potions. Constitution may be used to determine how much the character can take before overdosing, and then applying a negative affect.

Something similar to this was in Fallout, wasn't it? Though I recall it of being more of an 'addiction' than an 'overdose'.

 

[mondblut]

In old D&D games potions of healing were quite rare and hardly useful - this shit is only useful when massed.

I blame diablow, that's where quaff-quaff-quaff QTE minigame was initially introduced. Fallout is guilty as charged too, but can plead innocent on the basis of not having any other ways of hitpoint restoration (i.e. party clerics spamming healing spells like in proper RPGs) save for days of resting.

 

[DraQ]

Fallout is guilty as charged too, but can plead innocent on the basis of not having any other ways of hitpoint restoration (i.e. party clerics spamming healing spells like in proper RPGs) save for days of resting.

First aid and doctor.
Plus ability to spam stimpaks in inventory-time once you spend APs to open it.
Verdict: guilty.

 

[AzraelCC]

Well, the traditional definition of C.S. Lewis in response to Tolkien's LOTR is that fantasy is a world that has a consistent set of rules. So if potions are so prolific in your fantasy game, everyone should use them a lot, including your enemies. That would be stupid, though, since combat would take forever.

Any method of healing should be rare. Hell, that's why medicine is a "prized" profession. The only thing worse than potion spamming is when a game has the raise dead option.

 

[mondblut]

First aid and doctor.

Usable how many times per day? Or was it "once per hour" or something? Either way, not something you can bring 4 men from 10 hp back to 150 with.

Not to mention these skills are a sad waste of skillpoints for anyone who isn't an incurably sick larper. Unlike a D&D cleric who is by no means a waste of a party slot.

(come to think of it, if you wouldn't have a hundred of stimpaks at your disposal at any given time, the skills wouldn't be as useless. So it goes both ways really).

Plus ability to spam stimpaks in inventory-time once you spend APs to open it.

Obvious bug is obvious.

 

[MetalCraze]

First aid and doctor were useless

 

[DraQ]

First aid and doctor.

Usable how many times per day?

Usable. Period.

It's not like either Fallout was Arnika Road.

First aid and doctor were useless

Would they still be useless without stimpaks?

 

[Overweight Manatee]

Who used stimpacks and doctor/first aid when you could rest for a day or two anywhere and be at full health instantly?

Fallout never had good mechanics. They should not be used as an example of good game design. Leave it at that.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

GURPS: Fallout had good mechanics.

 

[MetalCraze]

First aid and doctor were useless

Would they still be useless without stimpaks?

You healed 2 health points.
You are too tired.
You are too tired.
You are too tired.

 

[deuxhero]

Fallout is guilty as charged too, but can plead innocent on the basis of not having any other ways of hitpoint restoration (i.e. party clerics spamming healing spells like in proper RPGs) save for days of resting.

First aid and doctor.
Plus ability to spam stimpaks in inventory-time once you spend APs to open it.
Verdict: guilty.

This court sees no reason to further prolong the trial. Nor is there any need for more time to decide the case against the defendant. This court finds the defendant, Fallout...Guilty. The accused will surrender to the court immediately, to be held pending trial at a higher court within a month from today's date. That is all. The court is adjourned!

 

[Murk]

I take it you never played Kult: Heretic Kingdoms, Jarlfrank? The healing system in that game was very very different. You have on you 1 healing item at any given time and the healing item (pouch of herbs, healing shamanistic totem, medicine, etc.) are infinite use items that can be used as much as you want.

However, how healing works, is that when you are damaged the amount of damage you receive leaves a trail of 'blood points'.

Example: If you have 100 health and get hit for 10hp you now have 90 health and 10 blood points.

The healing item then would restore a certain amount of blood points (percentage based I believe). This means you could never restore, using a healing time, to full health and you had to be careful not to use up the blood points immediately when waiting it out may have proved smarter.

That, definitely, removed any 'heal spam' tactics. The game was of course broken in many other ways but it had a very clever healing system I think.

 

[DraQ]

Sounds rather pointless and unnecessarily contrived.

I may have misread something, but how could it even help?

 

[Murk]

Because it makes potion-spamming impossible?

 

[Phelot]

Mikayel, what do you think of Kult: Heretic Kingdoms? Is it any good? I'm dying for a isometric RPG and the screens seem to show that the game would deliver. Sorry to derail...

 

[MetalCraze]

Wasn't Kult a poor Diablo clone?

 

[DraQ]

Because it makes potion-spamming impossible?

Elaborate on the algorithm. Right now it reads as something retarded and prevention of potion spam doesn't follow from it.

 

[Murk]

Mikayel, what do you think of Kult: Heretic Kingdoms? Is it any good? I'm dying for a isometric RPG and the screens seem to show that the game would deliver. Sorry to derail...

It is a very charming game with some magnificent story telling. Completely devoid of any c&c, the battle system breaks near the end game, and its character system is lopsided the second you realize which stat overpowers the rest.

Having said that, it's definitely worth playing at least once especially if you find it for 10 USD or less. Has some very nice features and, again I emphasize the storytelling, as it really has a VERY interesting premise that unfortunately isn't expanded on enough. Graphically, it is rather very pretty but not 'spectacular'.

Here's a link to Kingston's abandoned LP of it, has enough screenshots/info on it that you should be able to decide whether it is worth tracking down to try: http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=507704

My personal opinion: if you are okay with a game that's more ambitious in idea than execution, then it is very much worth a try.

Wasn't Kult a poor Diablo clone?

Not as such, no, other than the isometric hack'n'slash, the game is actually very different. Especially in how skills and equipment come into effect. 'skills' are gained through items and acquiring points (I forget what the points are called) until you gain the skill the piece of equipment gives. For instance, the basic 'firewand' gives you 'fireball' where-as certain shields give you a shield bonus ability that only works if a shield is equipped, and so on.

Elaborate on the algorithm. Right now it reads as something retarded and prevention of potion spam doesn't follow from it.

It has been 2 years since I last played the game so I don't remember the exact amounts that healing items restore but the basic premise is as follows:

HP is your total health. BP is 'blood points', a stat that occurs in proportion to the amount of damage you receive per blow. If a person has 100 hp and receives 25 points of damage then they have 75 hp and 25 blood points after the blow. The blood points occurred from the damage. When you use a healing item, the healing item restores X amount of HP for Y amount of Blood Points. Healing items always restore LESS hp than the amount of blood points they use, as such, they can never restore you to more health than you had before the blow. This means that you can never restore to full health, and more importantly, that you are limited in how much health you can restore. This also means that the only way to get back to full health is to rest at an inn.

Also note that all healing items function the same way but differ in only the amount of blood points they exchange for hit points, and there is no healing item that restores on a ratio of 1:1, all healing items absolutely restore LESS hp than they take bp.

 

[Pliskin]

Just don't allow potion use when actively engaged in combat. A character would have to move out of weapon range first, and then using a single potion should consume their entire turn.

 

[DraQ]

Depending on the rounding it uses it can be a mild disincentive for healing absolutely miniscule damage or an incentive to immediately heal the mildest bruises.

It wouldn't limit heal spam on it's own in any meaningful way, and if it's the former case, is also counter-sensical and therefore retarded. In any case it seems unnecessarily contrived.

 

[Murk]

Depending on the rounding it uses it can be a mild disincentive for healing absolutely miniscule damage or an incentive to immediately heal the mildest bruises.

It wouldn't limit heal spam on it's own in any meaningful way, and if it's the former case, is also counter-sensical and therefore retarded. In any case it seems unnecessarily contrived.

I don't know if I'm not explaining well or if you're not understanding, but healing spam was impossible in the game. Healing minor amounts of damage was less beneficial than waiting for larger amounts of damage to heal, on the whole, but the point was that healing spam the way diablo or most hack'n'slashes require was impossible.

If you find that convoluted or overly complex then, sure, whatever, try the game and see it for yourself I guess -- here's a link to the demo: http://www.3dpeople.de/kult/downloads_t ... ror-2.html

 

[DraQ]

Healing minor amounts of damage was less beneficial than waiting for larger amounts of damage to heal

1. How did it even work? Assume my character at full health gets hit for 2, then 4 damage. He has a healing item with 50% efficiency. First, assume he healed after each hit, first regaining 1HP, then 2HP - healing total 3HP of 6 damage inflicted.
Second, assume he heals only after receiving both wounds - he regains the same bloody 3HP of 6 damage inflicted at the same cost of 6 blood points.

What's. The. Fucking. Difference?

And no, I won't be downloading demos and shit only to check it out.

2. If delaying healing as long as possible is the efect of a system, the system is plain fucking retarded. No 'if's, no 'but's.
Normally, you would want to heal as soon as possible (unless you have no time to bleed), because untreated wounds degrade your performance and can make your condition deteriorate by bleeding, cascading damage or infection, while in the proposed system healing turns into some mentally impaired game of chicken with death.

If you find that convoluted or overly complex

Not overly complex, unnecessarily, bah - counter-fucking-productively complex. This added complexity doesn't amount to extra detail in simulation, it reduces the detail by actively making it fail to conform with simulated reality.
It's therefore and wrong.

 

[Murk]

Realizing my memory is too foggy at this point to actually continue I took a look at the manual which states that the exchange is "proportionate" (implying that it doesn't matter if you heal small amounts immediately or if you wait for larger amounts of damage to heal), however, it doesn't state if BP is given status like HP is (i.e, you have a starting X amount and it only goes down) or if it is derived from how much damage you sustain.

As best as I could recall your BP can only be used in the amount that differs from your HP -- that is, only the amount "exposed" from hp by taking damage.

Now having said that, this isn't my game so I don't really care to defend its merits in a multi-sectional quote argument over something that doesn't even matter.

 

[Raghar]

Most games make it much too easy to gulp down dozens of potions in the middle of combat. In Morrowind, for example, you just open your inventory, which pauses the game and gives you time to drink an infinite amount of potions. This means that the combat loses most of its challenge as long as you take enough of those magical insta-heal potions with you. It's just the same in the Fallout games, only there you have stimpacks instead of potions.

Healing potions in Morrowind? What for? A potion of intelligence followed by potion of strength is understandable. "I broken my katana on him, now for the rest of you, lets my fists do the talking." A vampiric draining on a weapon, or ring of a regeneration were superior.