Mannan in KotOR - The Lawyer's Planet

[KalosKagathos]

But this murder's court ruling and the public backlash could be the difference between the planet responsible for the production of all medical supplies deciding to solely trade with the Sith (what many of the councillors want) or keeping neutral. The game doesn't (if I remember correctly) give you dark side points for neglecting to present the evidence.

Damn you're stupid. And I don't throw that word around lightly (well, I do, but I don't usually mean it). He's saying that if a Republic war hero is revealed to be a murderer the population will turn further against the republic and side with the sith. It has nothing to do with "republic war heroes can do no wrong by definition" or whatever other hippy bullshit is going through your undoubtedly minuscule brain.

Which would be justice. You go trigger-happy on an important neutral planet, you get what you get. Outside circumstances like an inter-stellar war are of no concern to the law, not in this case.

 

[IronicNeurotic]

But yeah, I think I quit around when I started that level. Also, the entire premise of KOTOR2 is that the Jedi suck and aren't anything like the paragons of good that are portrayed in KOTOR1. FFS, just watch this fucking scene.

Kotor2 is what happens when Fagellone is released from his chains, relieved of his ball gag and let loose upon a game studio.

"The character must be someone who can give voice to shit that bothers me or is something I really, really want to write about. Kreia is my mouthpiece for everything I hate about the Force, and then I let her rant."

I'm the same as Avellone in this case. I also don't get why the SW universe has to be black and white. I mean Empire Strikes Back and to a lesser degree Return of the Jedi at least tried to blur the line.

One would think that would give the franchise a start to actually explore the concept of the force more.

But no, instead we got 9'000'000 "A new Hope" remakes.

 

[Spark Mandriller]

You don't know this until afterwards (they did decently in not painting the "kill the shark guy" as some evil businessmen, they just portrayed him as more rash and panicked). And the Republic isn't exactly understanding of your actions.

Yeah, until afterwards when the game literally tells you that your actions were good/evil. How couldn't you know what you were getting into anyway? You think Bioware are ever gonna give you a choice that involves not respecting nature and not make it evil? Please. That's like the number two way to show that someone is bad in fiction, right after whipping the underlings.

 

[Forest Dweller]

Meh. I can see where he was coming from. Some folks might come in with a 'greater good' mentality (e.g. the war is tight enough that this one planet with its source of kolta might actually swing the war, the sith are destroying entire planets and committing genocide en masse, hence the decision to turn a blind eye to the murder rather than risk weakening the republic's position). It's obviously supposed to be the dark side option, but it's plausible that someone well-intentioned might still choose it.

Even more than that, this woman is part of a group that is deliberately trying to kill and enslave you and yours. You should do whatever you can to weaken and destroy them, including going beneath the law on some neutral planet. To NOT kill them at every opportunity, regardless of the laws, would be what is immoral. The guy may not have done it for the Republic, but one less Sith is still one less Sith, and that is always a good thing.

 

[Azrael the cat]

But yeah, I think I quit around when I started that level. Also, the entire premise of KOTOR2 is that the Jedi suck and aren't anything like the paragons of good that are portrayed in KOTOR1. FFS, just watch this fucking scene.

Kotor2 is what happens when Fagellone is released from his chains, relieved of his ball gag and let loose upon a game studio.

"The character must be someone who can give voice to shit that bothers me or is something I really, really want to write about. Kreia is my mouthpiece for everything I hate about the Force, and then I let her rant."

I'm the same as Avellone in this case. I also don't get why the SW universe has to be black and white. I mean Empire Strikes Back and to a lesser degree Return of the Jedi at least tried to blur the line.

One would think that would give the franchise a start to actually explore the concept of the force more.

But no, instead we got 9'000'000 "A new Hope" remakes.

True that. Notice how by Return of the Jedi, Luke has reached his badass stage largely by hardening the fuck up and being willing to kill ruthlessly using the force - I'm thinking about his force-choking the guards on the way in to Jabba's palace. We already know from Vader's use of that trick that it doesn't just subdue them, and given how the force-choke has been shown throughout the trilogy as being Vader's 'thing', it shows Luke being willing to go a lot more into the grey than Obi wan Kenobi (who constantly tries to avoid killing at all costs - chopping an arm off, sure, but no throttling enemies with the force).

Not to mention the whole 'why did you lie to me' reaction when talking to Obi's spirit/voice at the end of Empire. Lying to Luke about his father is presented as something seriously morally dubious. He's pissed off with good reason, and it almost turns him darkside - until the prequels I always had the perception that the Jedi were supposed to have to constantly struggle to be good - that they had to make the same hard choices as everyone else, with no magically binary right or wrong to make it all easy for them. It's far more heroic to have a guy struggling to 'do good' without ever knowing for absolute certain whether he's getting it right, than to have the jedi elders divining from on high what the 'light side' action is - that isn't noble heroism, it's just obeying orders.

Don't get me wrong - I don't think you're supposed to read anything serious into it, it's still just popcorn entertainment. But popcorn entertainment doesn't have to be a battle of lawful stupid v chaotic stupid. And there's no reason why the everyday citizens, the non-jedi who have watched the sith and jedi tear the universe apart, wouldn't want to see the back of the whole lot of them.

 

[Erzherzog]

I think the better example of moral grey in a KotOR game is the storyline for planet Onderon in the sequel. On one hand, you've got a queen in bed with the Republic, but the General wants Onderon to be free from foreign influences but uses the Siths as a convenient ally.

I think implying that the Republic was pretty much screwing over Onderon was enough for me to consider it to be simply good guys vs. bad guys.

 

[Mangoose]

I think the better example of moral grey in a KotOR game is the storyline for planet Onderon in the sequel.

Oh c'mon. Comparing Bioware to Obsidian (or anybody else) in terms of moral ambiguity is just a redundant exercise.

 

[oscar]

Hmm I was thinking of that too but I'd say that planet's quests were less morally interesting then Mannan. The General's supporters are shown arresting journalists and generally being evil nationalistic right-wingers while the Queen's side is shown as being alot more honurable. It's also hinted that most of the alleged grievances against the Republic are made-up. By the end it's relatively clear that the Queen was the best choice. I think I'm just upset that when I asked the General for a golden statue nothing came from it

Overall they could of done alot better, and used it as an opportunity to show the Republic's not such a bed of roses after all. The conflict between the city-dwellers and the beast-tamers felt like it should of gone further too.

 

[racofer]

KotOR2 > KotOR1 by a long margin.

 

[heuheuhueh]

KotOR2 > KotOR1 by a long margin.

Really now?

The incomplete, rushed, bugged and poorly executed re hash is better than the original?

Those are some cool opinions.

 

[Lesifoere]

2011 newfags, here we come. Also lol "rehash." How is KotOR2 a rehash of the first game.

 

[Turjan]

I hated Manaan with its stupid department store music. Anyway, the court case was actually quite good with its difficult moral ambiguity. What soured me on it was that Bioware didn't treat it as morally ambiguous and shoehorned the whole thing into their typical black & white morality. That left a bad aftertaste.

 

[Erzherzog]

Hmm I was thinking of that too but I'd say that planet's quests were less morally interesting then Mannan. The General's supporters are shown arresting journalists and generally being evil nationalistic right-wingers while the Queen's side is shown as being alot more honurable. It's also hinted that most of the alleged grievances against the Republic are made-up. By the end it's relatively clear that the Queen was the best choice. I think I'm just upset that when I asked the General for a golden statue nothing came from it

Overall they could of done alot better, and used it as an opportunity to show the Republic's not such a bed of roses after all. The conflict between the city-dwellers and the beast-tamers felt like it should of gone further too.

Eh, I don't quite remember the grievances being made up. What I saw was an incompetent queen that was the Republics bitch versus the competent but ruthless general.

 

[heuheuhueh]

2011 newfags, here we come. Also lol "rehash." How is KotOR2 a rehash of the first game.

What has changed? The ability to upgrade weapons and influence party members.

That hardly makes up for the gaping plot holes and cut content. Not that I'm saying TSL was a bad game, quite the opposite in fact, but it doesn't hold a candle to the first.

There are dozens of duplicate scenes and segments. The sith attacking on the Harbinger eerily resembles the opening of K1. The whole "mysterious jedi who lost connection to the force" plot echoes in both games. Moreover, the Nihilus and Malak battles are very similar in terms of the events right before the confrontation and the circumstances under which they fought.

 

[Erzherzog]

2011 newfags, here we come. Also lol "rehash." How is KotOR2 a rehash of the first game.

What has changed? The ability to upgrade weapons and influence party members.

That hardly makes up for the gaping plot holes and cut content. Not that I'm saying TSL was a bad game, quite the opposite in fact, but it doesn't hold a candle to the first.

There are dozens of duplicate scenes and segments. The sith attacking on the Harbinger eerily resembles the opening of K1. The whole "mysterious jedi who lost connection to the force" plot echoes in both games. Moreover, the Nihilus and Malak battles are very similar in terms of the events right before the confrontation and the circumstances under which they fought.

I think the introduction and importance of Kreia in the sequel is enough to keep TSL from being a simple "rehash." Thematically they're different anyways. The second one focuses much more on the concept of betrayal.

 

[heuheuhueh]

The second one focuses much more on the concept of betrayal.

This actually intrigues me. Technically you are correct, however that's because every single goddamn character goes off about it, especially Kreia. Don't you forget that Bastilla betrayed Revan. A character who you've traveled with throughout the game, much like Kreia.

 

[Mangoose]

The second one focuses much more on the concept of betrayal.

This actually intrigues me. Technically you are correct, however that's because every single goddamn character goes off about it, especially Kreia. Don't you forget that Bastilla betrayed Revan. A character who you've traveled with throughout the game, much like Kreia.

Bastila got fucking tortured. Just like you should be. Retard.

 

[Lesifoere]

Now I know why people hated 2010 newfags.

but it doesn't hold a candle to the first.

Derp.

The whole "mysterious jedi who lost connection to the force" plot echoes in both games.

What the fuck.

Don't you forget that Bastilla betrayed Revan.

Except Bastila and Kreia are very different archetypes. Oh, that and Bastila is a thinly written, emotionally needy Bioware cliche and Kreia isn't.

Moreover, the Nihilus and Malak battles are very similar in terms of the events right before the confrontation and the circumstances under which they fought.

Are you just illiterate or...

 

[Mastermind]

I also don't get why the SW universe has to be black and white.

Fagellone's shit is also black and white, he just replaces traditional black and white with fagellone derp black and white. Fuck him and his piece of shit games.

 

[Forest Dweller]

2011 newfags, here we come. Also lol "rehash." How is KotOR2 a rehash of the first game.

It's a SLAM-DUNK!

 

[Mastermind]

Except Bastila and Kreia are very different archetypes. Oh, that and Bastila is a thinly written, emotionally needy Bioware cliche and Kreia isn't.

Keria's a much shittier character than Bastilla. Sometimes thinly written is better written if the alternative is having Kreia make you want to drill out your brains. The only thing Obshitian did right with her was to make her the final boss so I could kill the hideous wretch.

 

[Glyphwright]

Actually, Manaan was probably the most interesting planet in both KotOR games. A sterile, aquatic urban zone, neutral fish-people, the Republic and the Sith forced to coexist in narrow quarters under heavy surveillance and a strict legal system. A small world which nonetheless maintains its independence and even dictates its own rules due to the resource it possesses. Bioware must have had a severe collective nose bleed after creating a planet with this much sophistication (for a Bioware game).

Tattooine was pretty good too - the last habitable civilized outpost in a planet-wide desert, populated by Arabs.

Of course, then we have the merry-go-round Dantooine, a Coruscant wannabe Taris, a completely indigestible Kashyyyk (a jungle planet in a game with with no vertical axis movement?), and the Palmyra Beach Rakatan. Not to mention the gray and unmemorable Korriban.

 

[Mangoose]

Except Bastila and Kreia are very different archetypes. Oh, that and Bastila is a thinly written, emotionally needy Bioware cliche and Kreia isn't.

Keria's a much shittier character than Bastilla. Sometimes thinly written is better written if the alternative is having Kreia make you want to drill out your brains. The only thing Obshitian did right with her was to make her the final boss so I could kill the hideous wretch.

You're only saying that because Bastila is hot.

 

[Xor]

The second one focuses much more on the concept of betrayal.

This actually intrigues me. Technically you are correct, however that's because every single goddamn character goes off about it, especially Kreia. Don't you forget that Bastilla betrayed Revan. A character who you've traveled with throughout the game, much like Kreia.

I don't feel like having this argument again. I just don't. Fuck you, you're wrong.

 

[racofer]

Like I've said multiple times before:

Paragus station alone breathes more atmosphere than the entirety of KotOR1.

And now with the restoration patch out, claiming KotOR2 is inferior because it's "incomplete" is a lame excuse. Besides, even without the patch it was already a better had even in its butchered state.