Morrowind dungeons...

[thomase]

I've reinstalled Morrowind after not touching it for over 2 years. It started out of curiosity of how it performs on my relatively new PC. I installed the GCD leveling mode, and I'm starting to get into it again - at least I'm going further than I did originally.

I kind of like how GCD keeps your character more unique as you develop. However, one side effect of the way it handles stats is that once you get a lot of money, it makes sense (I think) to train the crap out of all of your Misc skills in order to help boost your attributes. In the original system, you "waster" potential multipliers by training too much misc skills.

Anyway, I should get to the orignal point of my post...

I've gone through a few dungeons so far, including some from the MQ. I have yet to see any puzzles. For example, secret doors, levers, buttons, elevators, doors that CAN'T be opened without a specific key, etc. Is the whole game like this? Didn't Daggerfall at least have some button and lever based puzzles?

 

[LlamaGod]

Puzzles are too niche.

 

[obediah]

You need to come up with something fresh!

like if there were these locked doors, and you had to find the key. And what if the keys were different colors, and there was always three of them.

Oh, or even better what if there was a group of people you had to get across a river/lava/vacuum but certain combintations of people couldn't be together.

Another thing that would really bring some newness to the computer puzzle would be having three pillars with some discs of different size that you move between them.

 

[Zomg]

Didn't Daggerfall at least have some button and lever based puzzles?

I think that there were a couple of teleporter puzzles in one or two of the fixed dungeons. Other than that, I don't think so.

This reminds me of the riddle-and-word-scramble chests in Betrayal at Krondor. "TRADE MARES" is burned into my memory forever.

 

[thomase]

Puzzles are too niche.

If that's true its sad...

It doesn't have to be TOO hard. Just make me jump through a few hoops. For example:

1) Go down a tunnel and find a dead end.
2) Go down a 2nd tunnel and find a lever/button/switch.
3) Pull/press/flip the lever/button/switch.
4) Hear a sound which indicates that a wall moved.
5) Go down the orignal tunnel and find an open secret door.

Anything is better than mindlessly hack-slashing though a maze.

I have been especially disappointed with the few Dwemer ruins I've been in. There are some great looking environments with lots of interesting looking machines and widgets. Some of them should actually DO something interesting though, other than just make noise.

 

[corvax]

yeah because a spice of tomb raider is the last thing that morrowind needs. jumping puzzles

exploring dungeons in morrowind is what you make of it. you can take the hack and slash approach or you can take a stealthy aproach, or a mixture. the only thing that would make it better is a diplomatic option...i always wanted to ally with various smugglers in caves but couldn't do so...

 

[thomase]

yeah because a spice of tomb raider is the last thing that morrowind needs. jumping puzzles

exploring dungeons in morrowind is what you make of it. you can take the hack and slash approach or you can take a stealthy aproach, or a mixture. the only thing that would make it better is a diplomatic option...i always wanted to ally with various smugglers in caves but couldn't do so...

Don't take "jump through a few hoops" too literally. All I'm saying is that there should be some level of interactivity with the environment that is necessary to procede through a dungeon.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Another thing that would really bring some newness to the computer puzzle would be having three pillars with some discs of different size that you move between them.

I call it: Hanoi Jane gets Bitched Slapped by her 7 disks and 3 pols.

Games TOTALLY need more puzzles like that.

 

[Section8]

Hey, Hanoi Hannah wasn't kidding when she said "me love you long time." Crap derivative puzzles are here to stay.

Tim: Right, you can't leave the fox with the chicken...
Gareth: Fox and chicken? Together? Bloodbath!
Tim: Yeah, I know, that's why...Anyway, you can't leave the chicken with the grain-
Gareth: Er, hello, I'm a chicken, thankyou Tim for leaving me with with my favourite food.
Tim: Yes, I was saying, Gareth, you can't do that, alright?
Gareth: How big is this chicken, that it's the same size as a bag of grain?
Tim: I don't know, big chicken.
Gareth: Yeah, how big?
Tim: Big, it's a super-chicken.
Gareth: What's the farmer doing with a fox? The fox is the farmer's worst enemy. He should just drown the fox in the river.
Tim: Gareth, it's a puzzle. You know, it's just a puzzle.
Gareth: Put the grain on a wall.
Tim: There's no wall.
Gareth: There's always walls.
Tim: Not here there isn't.
Gareth: What, it's just nothing? It's just a farm and a river? Get his wife to help.
Tim: He ain't got a wife.
Gareth: All farmers have wives.
Tim: Not this one. He's gay.
Gareth: Well, then he shouldn't be allowed near animals then, should he?

 

[Lumpy]

Yes, in the Dwemer Ruins, the machines should have done something. However, how many people install puzzles in their dungeons? Why would they make you pull a lever in order to open a door, if the level was in plain sight?
Dwemer ruins could have had elevators, though. Or codes to open certain doors, which you could get from scrolls or find through trial and error.
But a door that's unopenable without a key? Why? There is a quest where an old Nord gives you a key to a secret door in a dungeon, but I'm preety sure that the door could be opened with spells too.

 

[Crnobog]

If that's true its sad...

It doesn't have to be TOO hard. Just make me jump through a few hoops. For example:

1) Go down a tunnel and find a dead end.
2) Go down a 2nd tunnel and find a lever/button/switch.
3) Pull/press/flip the lever/button/switch.
4) Hear a sound which indicates that a wall moved.
5) Go down the orignal tunnel and find an open secret door.

Anything is better than mindlessly hack-slashing though a maze.

Yes, because rpgs need to be more like Doom

 

[Revasser]

I think the only 'puzzle' I can remember from Morrowind was in one of the Mages' Guild quest-specific Dwemer ruins, when one of the stewards asks you to go grab a report from some researchers. The ruin was "Nchuleftingth" os something, I think. There were three machines with cranks, two of the cranks damage you when you turn them and the third opens a passage behind you that leads down into the lower level.

Pretty simplistic stuff.

<i>Edit:</i> Oh, and there was that musical cave thing in Bloodmoon, I guess.

 

[thomase]

If that's true its sad...

It doesn't have to be TOO hard. Just make me jump through a few hoops. For example:

1) Go down a tunnel and find a dead end.
2) Go down a 2nd tunnel and find a lever/button/switch.
3) Pull/press/flip the lever/button/switch.
4) Hear a sound which indicates that a wall moved.
5) Go down the orignal tunnel and find an open secret door.

Anything is better than mindlessly hack-slashing though a maze.

Yes, because rpgs need to be more like Doom

You roll your eyes, but I'm serious.

The bottom line is that there is not enough interactivity. With the ability to pick up or put down anything, and talk to virtually anyone, the only thing missing is to take advantage of this to add some life and interactivity to the environments.

And as for locks that can't be picked, as long as you provide enough solutions to the problem, I think this is better than the alternative, where you can virtually skip ahead by having a high enough lockpick. A lockpick shouldn't necessarly be able to pick a "magical lock" that doesn't have any physical device that can be picked.

A good example of the failure of Morrowind's system IMHO is the first MQ dwemer ruin where you can explore the whole ruin with a low-level lockpick or Open spell. When I finished the quest and got a key to the lower levels. I excitedly went back to the ruin, assuming that I must have missed some un-openable door which would now be opened by my key, revealing more secrets. When I realized that the key was virtually useless, that was what initially left me with a feeling that the dungeons were "flat".

I already know that you will say that this is how a free-form RPG aught to be. I guess its just not my cup of tea...

 

[thomase]

BTW, I just accidentally stumbled across the "Corprus exploit".

Jeez, this "game" is a mess...

 

[Jason]

The "Ebola exploit" is much more effective. Give it a try.

 

[Crnobog]

And as for locks that can't be picked, as long as you provide enough solutions to the problem, I think this is better than the alternative, where you can virtually skip ahead by having a high enough lockpick. A lockpick shouldn't necessarly be able to pick a "magical lock" that doesn't have any physical device that can be picked.

The whole point of a 'rogue' class with the emphasis on lockpicking/stealth skills is so that you can bypass the combat/puzzles needed to get a key. Allowing the player to pick only those doors which aren't very important anyway is retarded.
The problem with Morrowind is the weak class system and easily accesible open spell, if your idea of interactivity is running aimlessly in search for some key hidden under a pile of rocks that is on the other fucking end of the dungeon than the door it opens then seriously, go play Doom, you'll be blown away at the level of interactivity there

 

[thomase]

The whole point of a 'rogue' class with the emphasis on lockpicking/stealth skills is so that you can bypass the combat/puzzles needed to get a key. Allowing the player to pick only those doors which aren't very important anyway is retarded.
The problem with Morrowind is the weak class system and easily accesible open spell, if your idea of interactivity is running aimlessly in search for some key hidden under a pile of rocks that is on the other fucking end of the dungeon than the door it opens then seriously, go play Doom, you'll be blown away at the level of interactivity there

You have a point. I guess the problem is game balance. All I can say is that something feels wrong. At times, it seems that "playing" is not much different than arbitrarily manipulating the world in the editor. The model of how the world works can only be so complex. If the limitations of the model are not balanced by some hard boundaries, the end result feels flat. I understand that there are boundaries and that the sandbox has rules... its just that when combined with the level of freedom you have, the mix seems out of whack.

 

[Lumpy]

If that's true its sad...

It doesn't have to be TOO hard. Just make me jump through a few hoops. For example:

1) Go down a tunnel and find a dead end.
2) Go down a 2nd tunnel and find a lever/button/switch.
3) Pull/press/flip the lever/button/switch.
4) Hear a sound which indicates that a wall moved.
5) Go down the orignal tunnel and find an open secret door.

Anything is better than mindlessly hack-slashing though a maze.

Yes, because rpgs need to be more like Doom

You roll your eyes, but I'm serious.

The bottom line is that there is not enough interactivity. With the ability to pick up or put down anything, and talk to virtually anyone, the only thing missing is to take advantage of this to add some life and interactivity to the environments.

But shouldn't it make at least some sense? Who would make a secret door and put the lever that opens it in plain sight? Instead of using an old fashioned lock&trap?
Puzzles should be things that only the creator is supposed to know. If somebody can make a really complicated puzzle, wouldn't he just make a 5 digit password instead of a system where one has to group the sigils that represent the orient and the occident according to a riddle in plain sight above the door? Or some other stupid game like that?
Puzzle should make at least some sense.

 

[golgotha]

Tribunal had a much larger puzzle aspect. There was a wall that would move to fight a Lich, not to mention the weather machine.

 

[Vidder]

If that's true its sad...

It doesn't have to be TOO hard. Just make me jump through a few hoops. For example:

1) Go down a tunnel and find a dead end.
2) Go down a 2nd tunnel and find a lever/button/switch.
3) Pull/press/flip the lever/button/switch.
4) Hear a sound which indicates that a wall moved.
5) Go down the orignal tunnel and find an open secret door.

Anything is better than mindlessly hack-slashing though a maze.

Yes, because rpgs need to be more like Doom

Doom? ever played dungeon master?

 

[Rat Keeng]

I've played Lands of Lore, and it has about a million puzzles, levers, keys, special locks, secret walls, pressure plates and so on. Like, having to freeze swamp holes so you can walk over them safely, or navigating a mapless maze of pits. It could get frustrating, but good fun nonetheless.

 

[M'Aiq the Dragon]

Tribunal had a much larger puzzle aspect. There was a wall that would move to fight a Lich, not to mention the weather machine.

Yeah Tribunal had some nice ideas for puzzles. Though not really difficult.

Anyhow, I enjoyed Fable.

And not the Fable for the X-box.

But an earlier game with some skinny guy. Just really funny and wierd.
"Maybe I should just throw myself in the ice-cold river and end it all."

 

[bryce777]

yeah because a spice of tomb raider is the last thing that morrowind needs. jumping puzzles

exploring dungeons in morrowind is what you make of it. you can take the hack and slash approach or you can take a stealthy aproach, or a mixture. the only thing that would make it better is a diplomatic option...i always wanted to ally with various smugglers in caves but couldn't do so...

Excuse me, just passing through. Shit, give me a break.

 

[ExMonk]

I never cared for the puzzles in Arena or Daggerfall. I was glad they dropped them in Morrowind. Two things I don't care for in games at all. Platform jumping and silly puzzles. But that's just me. :D

 

[Chefe]

Woah, hold on there buddy...

Morrowind had dungeons?