NWN2: Storm of Zehir expansion (now confirmed)

[Warden]

As for the other stuff, am I to understand that people are now complaining about being able to make a balanced party with balanced strengths and weaknesses?

srsly?

Oh no.. not at all. The problem is when you can change the leader at will and metodically abuse the strenghts and weaknesses of your characters - this should be limited somehow. ...As should resting.
Not fun.. that's why I'll try to solo the game (and recruit a cohort or 2 maybe). Nice that you confirmed it's possible. :D
BAN HIPS or i'll be tempted to breeze through SoZ solo..

Uhm, and I was complaining about general d&d imbalances actually..

 

[Warden]

Our goal is to capture the essence or spirit of "fortune and glory" adventuring. Of course there is a main storyline with nefarious bad guys, but there are also lots of other adventure areas that have no bearing on the main story.

And that is GREAT. You have a kiss from me.. :kiss:

Now go teach bioWare and gaiDer how to make good rpgs.
GaiDer, come here, free lessons bitch!

 

[POOPERSCOOPER]

Bioware Junior lawl

 

[thesheeep]

Just a btw-question:

Do you have to be dumbfucked or a dev to post here?....

Anyway, everything I read here so far made me even more interested and I can't remember when a thread about a mere expension has become that huge.... without completely derailing.
Go on!

 

[Depressinator]

Will it use 4th edition rules? I really hope not. I will never play a 4th edition rpg, and this one sounds pretty good.

 

[fastpunk]

Will it use 4th edition rules? I really hope not. I will never play a 4th edition rpg, and this one sounds pretty good.

Nope. It uses 3.5 edition rules.

Anyway, everything I read here so far made me even more interested and I can't remember when a thread about a mere expension has become that huge.... without completely derailing.

It's not too late. This is the codex.

 

[Shannow]

You can talk about your concerns with "ability abuse" as much as you want. But using that as a strawman in the dialogue discussion is weak, even for you.

How is that a strawman argument? Is this topic specifically about SoZ dialogues? *looks at the topic title* No dear, it is not.

Trying to weaken my arguments on dialogue by claiming I was simply trying to distract from more important topics and attacking my non-existant position on those topics is a strawman

I don't know how you manage not to maximize your skills even if you try to fail the hardest you can - do you distribute your skill points to nonexistent skills? Buggy copy?

Ever heard of a fighter? The class I most like to play? The class that gets 3 skill points per level. The class that you claim one can max all skills with? Where are you standing? Is that podest? Obviously your nose is too high in the sky to notice that it is burning

Hey, it would be best for you to just disappear from this topic and stop with the nonsense, dumbfuck.

 

[Warden]

Trying to weaken my arguments on dialogue by claiming I was simply trying to distract from more important topics and attacking my non-existant position on those topics is a strawman

When I said "you"; it was you in plural, as in "you people".
The universe does not revolve around you, intergalactic freak.
There are indeed more important aspects of a game than how many dialogue options you get and how fluffy they are.

Ever heard of a fighter? The class I most like to play? The class that gets 3 skill points per level. The class that you claim one can max all skills with? Where are you standing? Is that podest? Obviously your nose is too high in the sky to notice that it is burning

The balancing should be done having in mind the classes that have plenty of skill points to distribute.
It's not like: "Ah, there's a class that has 3 skill points at level up (if the pc has abysmal intelligence..) so we don't have to worry that the system is maybe broken and that many will probably be able to maximize all skills."

Hey, it would be best for you to just disappear from this topic and stop with the nonsense, dumbfuck.

Parrot.

 

[Sodomy]

The balancing should be done having in mind the classes that have plenty of skill points to distribute.
It's not like: "Ah, there's a class that has 3 skill points at level up (if the pc has abysmal intelligence..) so we don't have to worry that the system is maybe broken and that many will probably be able to maximize all skills."

No, the balancing should be done with ALL of the characters in mind, rather than assuming that the player will create a party of all rogues/bards.

A typical Fighter/Cleric/Rogue/Sorceror party will have someone for every convo skill who has it as a class skill (Fighter for intimidate, Cleric for Diplomacy, Sorceror for Bluff, and Rogue for just about any), but the Fighter will still always fail some inimidate checks (unless they're a Fighter/Pally or Fighter/Blackguard multi using CHA for saves) because of their CHA penalty, and the Sorc will have to put some points into Int (or be human) in order to have the skill points (Spellcraft and Concentration are both more important)- and Int is usually a safe dump stat for a Sorc. Furthermore, it also requires having high CHA on the rogue, which is a bit of a waste (high DEX and high INT are far more useful for most things).

Furthermore, you're going to need (or at least want) someone who has crafting skills- so there are two or three more people who need at least two or four more int, or are going to have to sacrifice skill points in the convo. skills.

So, even if you have someone for every dialoge skill, you still probably won't pass every check, either due to skill point constraints or CHA penalties. Also, lets not forget that NWN2 treats EVERY skill, as well as stats, as potential skill checks in dialogue, so there is even more you'd have to max. Plus, as has been mentioned before, even if you did max all of it, it's not like you'd be able to respond to the same node with both an intimidate and a bluff.

PS: 12 int (the amount that a non-human Fighter needs to get 3 skill points per level) is hardly abysmal. Average is about 10-11. Even a human fighter needs average intelligence to get 3 skillpoints per level.

@Obsidian- if any of you happen to be reading, is there any chance of implementing Sense Motive? ToEE showed that there are some interesting oppertunities regarding that skill, and it'd be great to see it put to use again in a CRPG.

 

[Warden]

The point was that you have 4 (four) custom PCs available at start. So unless you decide to create 4 (four) fighters you should pretty much be able to maximize all important skills.

And honey, when balancing is being done - having extremes in mind is VERY imporant. An extreme for example is the player choosing the best class/race/feat/spell combos - and that happens often. Should they have a breeze through the game because such imbalances, which allow them to "exploit" the system, exist? No.

 

[Depressinator]

Will it use 4th edition rules? I really hope not. I will never play a 4th edition rpg, and this one sounds pretty good.

Nope. It uses 3.5 edition rules.

Ah, good. I will have to check it out, then.

 

[Amon Gesoto]

All in all, this sounds pretty good. My only concern is it sounds like the party characters are just going to end up as a box of skills that I can conveniently open as I please without having any interesting characteristics to them.

 

[CrimsonAngel]

Thanks for the Answer Anthony.

Now if possible, and i know this can be a subject to change along the way.

How many NPC cohorts are we looking at to choice from in the world.

4 different ones or say 12 or even more.

 

[Sodomy]

The point was that you have 4 (four) custom PCs available at start. So unless you decide to create 4 (four) fighters you should pretty much be able to maximize all important skills.

Stats being maxed doesn't guarantee passing every intimidate check. For example, my last character had his intimidate maxed, with a background that gave +1 to it, and a solid 16 CHA (fighter/blackguard/weapon master build). He failed several intimidate checks.

My current build, a favored soul with 1 level of fighter for the armor/shield proficiencies, has his diplomacy maxed, and has still failed diplomacy checks, with a CHA of 19 (before items).

And honey, when balancing is being done - having extremes in mind is VERY imporant. An extreme for example is the player choosing the best class/race/feat/spell combos - and that happens often. Should they have a breeze through the game because such imbalances, which allow them to "exploit" the system, exist? No.

That's not an extreme, that's the norm. An extreme would be someone building a party of 4 evocation-specialist sorcs, or a 2 rogue/2bard party. A well-balanced party consisting of 4 powerful characters who complement each other's skills well is not an extreme.

 

[themadhatter114]

I think he just said you can't since often enough each dialog choice type (bluff/diplomacy/intimidate/etc.) would lead you down a different possible path and you can only choose one ...

Yeah, that last part was sarcasm on my part, since you have to actually choose how to handle each situation.

I just think it's silly for someone to think that it's powergaming or gaming the system to switch characters during conversations. I personally always thought it was stupid in NWN2 that my character can't pass an intimidate check, yet the NPC's have points in dialogue skills. And occasionally an NPC would actually chime in to help you pass a check. Who cares if you can (if you decided to allocate skills that way) pass every skill check? Does anybody think it's unrealistic for different people to chime in at different points throughout a conversation if they have something to add?

 

[Shannow]

Fixed.

It's different Shannow.. winning battles is esential to complete the game. Having the right conversation skills is not. You see what I'm getting at? They could make very difficult skill checks which are not essential to finish the game - but to put an impossible battle which would make you unable to complete the game would be a bit weird.
And there's also one more element - battles at least involve a bit of thinking; spell and ability usage etc. Clicking on a dialogue option doesn't require any brain skill.

..
Oh, and there's another problem. You and Obsidian are all in the world dialogues and party conversations - and the game needs serious balancing of spells and abilities.

When I said "you"; it was you in plural, as in "you people".
The universe does not revolve around you, intergalactic freak.
There are indeed more important aspects of a game than how many dialogue options you get and how fluffy they are.

Cute. Ad hominem for a formulation that "was in no way" ambiguous
Way to go, man.

 

[deuxhero]

The point was that you have 4 (four) custom PCs available at start. So unless you decide to create 4 (four) fighters you should pretty much be able to maximize all important skills.

Stats being maxed doesn't guarantee passing every intimidate check. For example, my last character had his intimidate maxed, with a background that gave +1 to it, and a solid 16 CHA (fighter/blackguard/weapon master build). He failed several intimidate checks.

My current build, a favored soul with 1 level of fighter for the armor/shield proficiencies, has his diplomacy maxed, and has still failed diplomacy checks, with a CHA of 19 (before items).

And honey, when balancing is being done - having extremes in mind is VERY imporant. An extreme for example is the player choosing the best class/race/feat/spell combos - and that happens often. Should they have a breeze through the game because such imbalances, which allow them to "exploit" the system, exist? No.

That's not an extreme, that's the norm. An extreme would be someone building a party of 4 evocation-specialist sorcs, or a 2 rogue/2bard party. A well-balanced party consisting of 4 powerful characters who complement each other's skills well is not an extreme.

I would imagine that a few or all of the failed checks are simply not possioble (as in auto fail) at all.

Fixed.

It's different Shannow.. winning battles is esential to complete the game. Having the right conversation skills is not. You see what I'm getting at? They could make very difficult skill checks which are not essential to finish the game - but to put an impossible battle which would make you unable to complete the game would be a bit weird.
And there's also one more element - battles at least involve a bit of thinking; spell and ability usage etc. Clicking on a dialogue option doesn't require any brain skill.

..
Oh, and there's another problem. You and Obsidian are all in the world dialogues and party conversations - and the game needs serious balancing of spells and abilities.

Aside from the problem with uber AC from spells and abilities which I mentioned before, there's another big imbalance.

Has anyone tried playing with a HIPS (hide in plain sight) character? I've tested it in MotB - created a hipser (rogue/shadowdancer) and tested if there's any remote chance a monster can spot/hear me while I'm hidden. No. With its 5 seconds cooldown you can beat ANYTHING; you attack, run away, hide, attack, run, hide - to infinity. And the monsters are UNABLE to spot you.
Seriously, Obisidian.. leave the party banter alone; fix such issues first. Remove hips or make it a number/day ability.

Yep, first MoTB playthrew was Rogue/Assasin, the final boss was laughable (seriously, he just attacked Ganns summons the whole battle), as far as I could tell, there was not a scarch on my characters (although I had regenertive armor)

Next playthrew will be a Monk/Advenger/RDD LN (at the start, just to grab eternal rest, progress to evil latter), so while I will have HIPS, it won't be as good without the raw sneak attack die.

Hopefully this PC will stay evil, as the aformentioned one wound up good by the end because MoTB makes it hard to play an evil character who wants to control the hunger.

 

[Demnogonis Saastuttaja]

The point was that you have 4 (four) custom PCs available at start. So unless you decide to create 4 (four) fighters you should pretty much be able to maximize all important skills.

And what's wrong with that? To do that, you have had to make some choices, like having the kind of classes that actually have the skills, skill points and so on. Like, say, you can have a pretty good conversationist in a Warlock, with Beguiling Influence and high CHA score. Maybe multiclass to Shadow Thief of Amn and have even better dialogue skills, but that'd compromise your casting ability. Then you'd have to have good INT and maybe be a human so you actually have those skill points, and then decide if there's actually any merit in investing in more than one dialogue skill.

Then you might just decide that warlocks suck, and have a wizard instead, who IIRC doesn't have dialogue skills until some prestige classes. You could take sorcerer instead but sorc doesn't use INT for spellcasting. And so on. You can create a party with maxed dialogue (and other) skills, but you don't have to, maybe you don't even want to.

 

[Saxon1974]

I just played through about half of the user created mod called "Asphyxia" for NWN2. Kudos to the author a very well made and enjoyable mod.

This being said however, it just didn't hold my intersting that long, I stopped playing after about 4 hours. Honestly I don't think it's the mod though, I feel that way in almost every new RPG game that comes out now.

In playing through it I just realized how bland and uninteractive the worlds and environments are now. You can't really interact with hardly anything, your lucky if there is one chest in a room that you can open.

Also, while the areas in the game look nice and were well designed there really wasn't that much you could explore other than just going straight to the designated quest\plot related item.

Im really hoping that what's really missing in modern RPG for me is lack of open ended exploration and I have hopes that the Storms premium mod with the world map will satisfy me and if it does well that we will see more of this type in the future.

If not, I guess I will just continue to play from my old games collection.

Ultima Underworld here I come again.

 

[Starwars]

Good interview with the Lead Designer: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=In ... ail&id=333

 

[Volourn]

"but the Fighter will still always fail some inimidate checks (unless they're a Fighter/Pally or Fighter/Blackguard multi using CHA for saves) because of their CHA penalty"

Fighters don't get a charisma penalty...

 

[Hümmelgümpf]

Wizards of the Coast allowed us to take some liberties in adding a brand new ability: Summon Baatezu allows the [unspecified character class] to summon a powerful devil from the Nine Hells to fight for the party. The devils all have different abilities and it is just luck of the draw which one appears. There is a catch, though. The devil has a chance to turn on the party. Also, players familiar with previous games may recognize some of the devils that are summoned.

Ammon's buddies are coming back?

 

[Starwars]

http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/899/899068p1.html

 

[Sodomy]

"but the Fighter will still always fail some inimidate checks (unless they're a Fighter/Pally or Fighter/Blackguard multi using CHA for saves) because of their CHA penalty"

Fighters don't get a charisma penalty...

They tend to use it as a dump stat, given that, unless it's a Pally or Blackguard, it's the stat that's least applicable to combat for them. Poor CHA gives a penalty to the intimidate skill.