Review Oblivion reviewed by the Codex

[whitemithrandir]

What I don't find logical is how can you escape from prison, and not have the guards come up to you and say somthing like": "Hey! I just threw your ass in jail! How the hell did you get out?!" or someone saying: "Hey you! You're the prisoners the guards are looking for! The one that escaped last night!" or somthing like that?


Great review VD.

They didn't see me because I changed my face at the end of the tutorial dungeon.

/plays the mission impossible theme.

 

[Gwendo]

There are certain things I don't understand. Many Oblivion's mistakes are just things that come from bad design decisions, not for technical/economic/time constraints. Bethesda managed to ruin two games that could be great. And all that in a row: Morrowind and Oblivion.

So much obvious time, dedication, art design, etc, etc, etc spoiled due to a bad game design.

It's frustating. It's like watching a porn movie, with hot chicks and an impotent man.

 

[NeVeRLiFt]

Hey VD thanks for the review, it was a damn good review and I liked it!

 

[Kortalh]

I generally think it would be hard to come up with a portal that isn't round and doesn't look retarded at the same time.

I'd think that a simple tear in the fabric of space/time would suffice. I don't really understand how the evil cult has time to apparently go around building the foundations for these portals all over the place... or are we meant to believe that the stone foundation is actually created by the portal?

The biggest letdown in the entire game for me were the portals and the world beyond. The latter being so incredibly bland and cliche that I quit playing once I got to the "you have to close 7 of them now" part of the main quest.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

I disagree with the dungeons section of the review....i personally think they're the dullest part of the game.

but yeah, bethesda are completely hopeless at telling a decent story, you keep hearing about how the legion is stretched thin, yet only once have i seen them throw up a barricade around these gates (kvatch), there's a large bridge that leads out of the imperial city yet they don't fortify it at all, or set up checkpoints along roads, no large patrols of the guard even though i have mythic dawn faggots uncloaking and attacking me inside the city!.

Now look at Gothic 2, there's a big fucking ship unloading supplies and paladins and militia training in khorinis, goto the valley of mines and you have a castle under siege....and near the end of the game you have plate armoured paladins lining up ready to take the fight to the orcs.

This is simple stuff yet it adds alot to the game and helps tell a believable story.

They still maintain a lore and 'game world' and it's a retarded game world if they never got around to using spears and crossbows, since they were pretty damned useful for what they were used for.

They have been invented though....in morrowind, obviously cyrodil...the province that conquered the world forgot to create them.

 

[Licaon_Kter]

great review VD!

i think that if the portals were a different shape than an daedric O, every evil-minion would get stuck in Oblivion(??AI path-grid madness??), kindof like the NPCs in Morrowind that dont know how to use door knobs

 

[Spazmo]

I think this counts as self-congratulating since we're all RPG Codex (though just barely these days) but nice review, VD. I really like the juxtaposition of the developer's inflated lies with the game's disappointing truth.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Thanks.

 

[CorrodedCoder]

This is quite a useful really as I'm beginning to understand perhaps where some of you guys at the codex are coming from. I certainly agree that most commercial reviews haven't really done a good job of assessing the game from the perspective of a long time player of such games. This may just be because of the modern day drought of such games which they can compare with.

This isn't an attack of the review - or of anything really. Just observations. I should note that my points here aren't all to do with Vault Dweller's review, although they were prompted by it, but some are from other comments I've read about OB.

I've been playing CRPG's (or what I think are CRPG's anyway) for perhaps 18 years now and I have to say I've always been a big fan of the games produced by Bethesda (DF, MW & OB). My world was certainly rocked by DF anyway.

Some of the things I've noticed by reading your review are that perhaps I'm less sure I know how to define a CRPG anymore.

If it's about freedom of choice, then I guess I'd have to agree that the way in which you get to choose your solution in OB is restricted. Do I kill with magic, the sword or bow doesn't cover the - is there another solution to this. I have to say I've not found many games do really address that, and I've always assumed it to be for pragmatic reasons. If you allow for N different ways to solve each problem then there would be a great deal of design/development/testing to validate something of which many players will only ever see one of. The N == 2 path is the route that many games take, which tend to fall into the "good" choice or the "evil" choice.

If it's about immersion, then I guess games don't quite effect me like they do others. A popup on the screen doesn't shake me out of the moment - although I can see how others find it annoying. I feel that first-person combat makes a game more immersive for me than a turn-based game (I should mention that I'm a big fan of turn-based games).

If it's about realism, then I guess again that games don't effect me like others. I realised this when I played various serious flight sims versus actual arcade style combat flying. Realism isn't really what I want. I do want some aspects of the game to behave realistically, but I'll be bored out of my mind if I have to spend 2 weeks trying to work out how to properly fly a Falcon! Realism clearly means a great deal more to some than to others - but I feel that every game makes decisions about how much reality is can be added without making the game boring. Needing to eating and drink are a good examples. They may make the game experience more real, but do they make it more fun? Perhaps for some.

Personally I've always found it difficult to break things into individual areas - I tend to feel I either like something or I don't overall, although I do obviously dislike some things and like others.

Strangely, I really couldn't get on with a few of the games in your top-ten, which perhaps just shows me I'm less of a CRPG fan than I thought - and in fact prefer a more mixed-genre of game. I didn't find Fallout2 or Planescape Torment particularly enjoyable - and even more surpisingly for me, I found I just couldn't get into Arcanum (which is much more in my preferred subject area).

My only real complaint on your review is that I'd rather you hadn't setup PR quotes and then knocked them down, although for entertainments sake I understand why you did. I would have preferred your personal assessment on the game as it is - as you certainly have a different view to mine. As a dev who still has plans to turf out his own CRPG'ish game (my definition of one I'm afraid ;o) ) I find it useful to discover what makes a great game for other people.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to give your perspective!
CC

 

[LlamaGod]

Immersion to me is being able to be drawn into a believable world.

Nothing in Oblivion makes a lick of sense or feels anything like a real world, all it has is first person and pretty graphics. If thats all it takes for immersion, I guess 3D modelling programs are the most fucking immersive things ever.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Welcome to the forums, CC. Always glad to have a good conversation.

My world was certainly rocked by DF anyway.

So was mine. However, Bethesda that made Arena & Daggerfall and Bethesda that made MW and OB are two different companies with very different design philosophies. I hope you realize that.

I have to say I've not found many games do really address that, and I've always assumed it to be for pragmatic reasons.

Yet there are games that did a great job there, so why settle for less?

If it's about immersion, then I guess games don't quite effect me like they do others.

Different people, different tastes, preferences, and expectations. Obviously, a casual gamer would have different gaming needs than a hardcore gamer.

Strangely, I really couldn't get on with a few of the games in your top-ten, which perhaps just shows me I'm less of a CRPG fan than I thought - and in fact prefer a more mixed-genre of game. I didn't find Fallout2 or Planescape Torment particularly enjoyable - and even more surpisingly for me, I found I just couldn't get into Arcanum (which is much more in my preferred subject area).

Shame about Arcanum - one of the best role-playing games ever. Fallout 2 is so-so, and PST is more on the adventure side, but an excellent game nonetheless.

My only real complaint on your review is that I'd rather you hadn't setup PR quotes and then knocked them down, although for entertainments sake I understand why you did.

I didn't do it just for entertainment's sake alone. I think that developers' promises shouldn't be forgotten the moment the game hits the stores. People make purchasing decisions based on what developers told them, and if Gavin reassured people that becoming the top guy in a guild is totally awesome now, I think he should be reminded of that. Fallout 3 season is around the corner. Maybe now people would put less trust in what developers say.

I would have preferred your personal assessment on the game as it is - as you certainly have a different view to mine.

And I did that. I went over different aspects of the game, discussing them and making some references to what's been said in the past. I believe I described the gameplay and my description may give people a good idea of what to expect and what the game is like.

As a dev who still has plans to turf out his own CRPG'ish game (my definition of one I'm afraid ;o) ) I find it useful to discover what makes a great game for other people.

Well done games make great games for other people. Making a game that you would want to play would get you there. So, do tell us about your project.

 

[Spazmo]

Realism is the wrong word to use in this context, because realism is not fun. Reality is I have fifteen hours of class a week, nine hours of work and not enough sleep because of fucking contractors working on the neighbour's house.

What you want to have for a believable gameworld is consistency. Obviously magic is totally unrealistic, but once you have magic, it should always work the same way (unless you have one of those funny "magic is chaotic and fickle" deals, but that's a bit of a cop-out for writers who want to introduce something out of nowhere and call it magic). Once you have people, they should behave the way you'd expect people to behave--and if they don't behave that way (because half-cat half-man psychology has some slight differences, perhaps), they'd better always behave a different way. You don't, of course, want to get predictable (and anyways, the real world rarely is), but if the player can go "Ah, goblins. They tend to fight in large packs, but if I can kill their leader, they'll run away." Well, now you're talking immersion. And that's something that super realistic arrows with Havok physics and (of course) soil erosion will never get you.

 

[LlamaGod]

I just mean a world that feels real and behaves like our world does. Monsters that make sense and are placed in locations that make sense. Big towns that are just like real towns, all full of activity at the right moments.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Everything has hype. Beer companies hype that their stuff can get you hot sexy women. When someone describes a beer they don't like, they don't say "yea well it sucks because I haven't gotten those women!" They say "yea well it sucks because it's watered down and made with 15% donkey piss!"

It's good to include stuff against what the guys in suits said they would deliver against what they actually delivered, but it shouldn't be the entire focus. Marketing is marketing.

Expectation. That's the problem right there. Who cares if Oblivion is the greatest Tetris clone to ever dawn the history of man? The point is that right from the start, we were told it would be nothing like Tetris. There'd be no blocks! It'd be totally new and have "really cool" things like a better dialogue system and intense combat.

Instead, we got Tetris. Is that a problem if it's the greatest Tetris game ever? Hell yes. Why the bullshit? Why the lies? Why were we told there'd be XYZ or ABC only to find later that they just couldn't do it because, you know, they didn't feel like it in the end?

The problem is, Oblivion isn't exactly a great Tetris clone either.

crossbows

Are the bows good? Do they work? It seems Vault Dweller liked them. Even if he didn't, why mention crossbows anyway instead of why the bows weren't good? Can I complain about a lack of boomeranges and frisbees?

Again, expectation. Were spears in Oblivion? Yes. What about Crossbows? Yes. What about levitation? Yes. Mark and Recall? Yes. Frisbees and boomerangs? No. They go to the point I make below. The point is, this game is a sequel to a series of games which had a whole bunch of "really cool" stuff to do. When you actually look at the things game doesn't have that the previous games did, you wonder what the hell's going on. Less skills. Less weapons. Less choice. Is that a good thing? Is it a good thing that the latest game in the series actually makes you wnt to play the previous incarnation because that one actually had more to do in it?

Because being the head of something should probably get you something important.

Yea maybe. But the experience in getting there is the best part. You know, the gameplay. Unless you're one of those people who play games just to collect virtual treasure or whatever. Talk about how the factions interact with each other and the main quest. Talk about the internal rivalries and how they play out.

I don't think the factions do interact with each other nor are there any internal rivalries. I dunno, I could be wrong? Regardless, it's about creating a believeable game world. It's the story which goes right through everything you touch. In a (at least the good ones) RPG, the setting and world you're involved with go right to the root of gameplay. You're supposed to feel "immersed" in this believeable world and feel like you're actually making a difference. You're not just there because, gee you know,the game mechanics of swinging a sword are really cool. There's a reason Half-Life is praised for its story elements.

When you have a game that raises so many "immersion breaking" elements like the prison escape, like being the head of a guild and getting little reward, like being able to pwn all at level 1... Then what's the point? There are better games out there that have better game mechanics than Oblivion. I'd like to think I'm playing Oblivion in part to see those game mechanic elements but also to have it all wrapped up in a nice believable layer of setting. The fact that swinging your sword is really cool is only one aspect of design. Without a decent believeable story, swinging your sword around just gets awfully boring after a while.

 

[bryce777]

This is quite a useful really as I'm beginning to understand perhaps where some of you guys at the codex are coming from. I certainly agree that most commercial reviews haven't really done a good job of assessing the game from the perspective of a long time player of such games. This may just be because of the modern day drought of such games which they can compare with.

This isn't an attack of the review - or of anything really. Just observations. I should note that my points here aren't all to do with Vault Dweller's review, although they were prompted by it, but some are from other comments I've read about OB.

I've been playing CRPG's (or what I think are CRPG's anyway) for perhaps 18 years now and I have to say I've always been a big fan of the games produced by Bethesda (DF, MW & OB). My world was certainly rocked by DF anyway.

Some of the things I've noticed by reading your review are that perhaps I'm less sure I know how to define a CRPG anymore.

If it's about freedom of choice, then I guess I'd have to agree that the way in which you get to choose your solution in OB is restricted. Do I kill with magic, the sword or bow doesn't cover the - is there another solution to this. I have to say I've not found many games do really address that, and I've always assumed it to be for pragmatic reasons. If you allow for N different ways to solve each problem then there would be a great deal of design/development/testing to validate something of which many players will only ever see one of. The N == 2 path is the route that many games take, which tend to fall into the "good" choice or the "evil" choice.

If it's about immersion, then I guess games don't quite effect me like they do others. A popup on the screen doesn't shake me out of the moment - although I can see how others find it annoying. I feel that first-person combat makes a game more immersive for me than a turn-based game (I should mention that I'm a big fan of turn-based games).

If it's about realism, then I guess again that games don't effect me like others. I realised this when I played various serious flight sims versus actual arcade style combat flying. Realism isn't really what I want. I do want some aspects of the game to behave realistically, but I'll be bored out of my mind if I have to spend 2 weeks trying to work out how to properly fly a Falcon! Realism clearly means a great deal more to some than to others - but I feel that every game makes decisions about how much reality is can be added without making the game boring. Needing to eating and drink are a good examples. They may make the game experience more real, but do they make it more fun? Perhaps for some.

Personally I've always found it difficult to break things into individual areas - I tend to feel I either like something or I don't overall, although I do obviously dislike some things and like others.

Strangely, I really couldn't get on with a few of the games in your top-ten, which perhaps just shows me I'm less of a CRPG fan than I thought - and in fact prefer a more mixed-genre of game. I didn't find Fallout2 or Planescape Torment particularly enjoyable - and even more surpisingly for me, I found I just couldn't get into Arcanum (which is much more in my preferred subject area).

My only real complaint on your review is that I'd rather you hadn't setup PR quotes and then knocked them down, although for entertainments sake I understand why you did. I would have preferred your personal assessment on the game as it is - as you certainly have a different view to mine. As a dev who still has plans to turf out his own CRPG'ish game (my definition of one I'm afraid ;o) ) I find it useful to discover what makes a great game for other people.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to give your perspective!
CC

Hi, Steve!

Well, anyhow, I think the PR quote debunking is quite telling because it shows how much of the hype was utter bullshit and outright lies. Hyperbole is not even in it. Note that this is not done for every review, just for this one company which has some very dishonest people making ridiculous claims, and trying to fool a lot of fans of their older games into giving them one more chance even as they complete their cycle of pandering utterly to the new console OMG WTF LOL crowd.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Everything has hype. Beer companies hype that their stuff can get you hot sexy women. When someone describes a beer they don't like, they don't say "yea well it sucks because I haven't gotten those women!" They say "yea well it sucks because it's watered down and made with 15% donkey piss!"

It's good to include stuff against what the guys in suits said they would deliver against what they actually delivered, but it shouldn't be the entire focus. Marketing is marketing.

Marketting is one thing, but beer commercials don't actually say, "Hey, if you drink this, you'll get hot chicks!" They just show attractive people having fun. While you can argue that's elluded to by the commercials, VD's review is using direct quotes from the developers saying exactly how things will be in the game. Well, he's pointing out they didn't turn out the way they were said to be.

crossbows

Are the bows good? Do they work? It seems Vault Dweller liked them. Even if he didn't, why mention crossbows anyway instead of why the bows weren't good? Can I complain about a lack of boomeranges and frisbees?

Because crossbows have always been in Elder Scrolls games. In fact, they're in nearly every fantasy setting CRPG. The developers said the reason crossbows weren't going to be in Oblivion was because the physics of the bows were going to be just so damned cool, they couldn't impliment crossbows.

But yeah, I have personal weapon preferences "just because" in games. I like crossbows generally because they do more damage or are more accurate and I'm willing to trade reload time for either of those two things. I also think crossbows are cooler, more advanced weapons. So yeah, I was unhappy to hear they were cut out because of some bullshit line about physics and how most people think of bows when they think ranged in fantasy games.

Also, the second argument is fundamentally skewed. When the average Joe Gamer thinks fantasy CRPGs, generally he's thinking "sword". So, what if TES5 rolls around and they impliment some really cool sword animations and ditch every other weapon the same way? It's a logical extension of the thing about bows versus crossbows.

Yea maybe. But the experience in getting there is the best part. You know, the gameplay. Unless you're one of those people who play games just to collect virtual treasure or whatever. Talk about how the factions interact with each other and the main quest. Talk about the internal rivalries and how they play out.

The problem is with the gameplay. Don't tell me I'm headed to the top of a faction when, once there, I can't actually do anything someone with that status should be able to do. Having a quest string tied to a guild with no end result isn't gameplay. It's bait and switch. You can do lots of quests for lots of people around the world, why take the time to do the faction status crap when you could be doing quests from just Tom Farmer or Bob Shopkeep?

In fact, your argument that "If you're only goal is to collect treasure" applies more to the flawed guild faction ladder than it does if being factional leader were something important. What's the point of doing the quests if any status you achieve in the game is only represented by the treature and booty you get from working the quests in that linear job ladder?

Do you still try to play with hammers too? I can still vaguely remember your "Way of the Hammer" sig, where you used a hammer in both FO and Arcanum. Please say yes!

I still favor blunt weapons, yeah. In fact, in Mount & Blade, most of my characters use two-handed hammers. For ranged, I prefer crossbows as I said above.

ToEE introduced me to what a Heavy Flail actually is. I want more games with those. Big, giant, scary flails that take two hands. They're like swinging a log that has a chain at the end of it with a spikey log at the end of that chain. How sweet a weapon is that?

 

[bryce777]

Well, actually you should have crossbows or plate armor, but not both. Especially if you are going to go the romanesque route' if they had stuck to that and had stuff like gladiuses and pilums, it might have been pretty cool and different than the usual random hodgepodges of weapons that come from conflicting eras.

 

[Kthan75]

Nice review, VD!

I am curious to see the reaction of other forums, TES especially, to this review, given the dev quotes and all. Have any of you guys seen any reaction yet?

It's probably going to be the usual "Fucking elitist rpg snobs!" or "You didn't play it right" or "You suck!", but I'm curious, nevertheless.

 

[Twinfalls]

Very good review, enjoyed reading it and got quite a few laughs from it. I'd only suggest that the paragraph with the 'Mallrats reference' is horribly jumbled and a bit silly, and could do with being excised completely.

The use of the dev quotes is a master stroke - it's about time games companies start finding their bullshit to be a double-edged sword. Bethesda have proven to be the Masters of the Bullshit Universe, so it's especially good to see them skewer themselves so thoroughly - with a little help from the Codex...

 

[Justin Cray]

EDIT: the page now loads for me and I see my post is kinda redundant. :/

Hmm I get a jscript error when going to page 3 of this thread. Maybe this post doesn't even exist! (oooOOOoooOO)

Good review, I would have liked harsher criticism of the rpg elements.

This game fakes being an rpg. It's a very good action game set in a fantasy world, but it is not an rpg.

Another thing: people seem to forget that this is a sequel to Morrowind. The reduced complexity should be a huge thing for fans of the original. Spears and crossbows were mentioned, the review forgot levitation (huge deal imho!), raw ore to build your own armor or weapons, sleep anywhere. And I bet there is more.

And yet I like the game (for its merits as an action game) and am still playing it, but, and here I agree with the style of the review, it is not the game we were promised.

 

[CorrodedCoder]

Hi, Steve!

Do you greet everyone like that - or only those you suspect of having the surname of Meister? Well - you got the wrong guy here I'm afraid!

Well, anyhow, I think the PR quote debunking is quite telling because it shows how much of the hype was utter bullshit and outright lies. Hyperbole is not even in it. Note that this is not done for every review, just for this one company which has some very dishonest people making ridiculous claims, and trying to fool a lot of fans of their older games into giving them one more chance even as they complete their cycle of pandering utterly to the new console OMG WTF LOL crowd.

Yes - actually I have no issue with a "debunking the hype" kind of issue, I just personally would have preferred to separate that from the review. That way I think it might have been more approachable for those without prior knowledge of the game seeking a review. The debunking bit I suspect might turn people off.

Steve

ooer - I meant:

CC

 

[LlamaGod]

If people are too stupid to find the ski-lift, they should be forced to climb up the hill.

 

[Alliop]

200% with Vault Dweller. Thank for analysis.

It's time to move RPGs forward and really show how entertaining they can be.
Todd Howard

*Fan club chorus* Sure!

Let's moove forward!

*Fan club chorus* To where?

Let me think.... diablolique in a cirular open area instead of a guided linear world, wouldn't it be grate?

*Fan club chorus* Oh yes yes yes, that's great RPG forwarding!

But arborescent diablo's skills where much to complex, wheren't they? Let's have a linear systematic automatic and equaly efficient progression for all skills and all situations!

*Fan club chorus* Oh yes yes yes, what a great RPG forwarding!

But diablo's universe whas much too complex, with too much different kind of inventive areas, whasen't he?... so let's have absolutely no inventive artistic goal in graphics, let's use instead photographiclike aproximative display, and let's clône 2 or 3 types of dungeons... will it not be beautifull?!

*Fan club chorus* Oh yes yes yes, how beautifull it is !

Well that's enough for gameplay and graphics. Let's forward the rôle play.
What would you think about being the guy who gets universe destiny in his hands?

*Fan club chorus* Oh yes yes yes, how brand new forwarding it is !

For your own personal rôle, Would you like some kind of Zorro's sets more and more powerfulls to fight the evil ones?

*Fan club chorus* Oh yes yes yes, how grate new rôleplaying it is !

Oh but pardon me that's WoW tipycal rôleplaying! Let's be originals, instead of having to work a lot at farming and dungeoning to get some wonderfull items like in WoW, let's have automaticaly always te same levelled set as our ennemis. Isn't it a great forwarding?

*on single voice* And what about universe and background?

Well, the universe is the one witch's destiny is in someone's hands : YOU! Have'nt we talk enough about graphics?

*Fan club chorus* Oh yes yes yes, how grate new backgournd forwarding it is !

.......

And now, Bethesda's special gift : THE TESC ! ... moder's community will be glad to finish our work and correct our bugs for free (you can't guess how much french translation is a pity! books texts are not even balised!!!) , will not she be?

*Moder's community (myself inside)* Oh yes! yes! We' ll do that! Thank you Beth! An we'll even do much more better than you poor graphics in the large world space you left for that, and than your asshole quests (witch many are, i have to say, very good paper-ideas, but despeeratly truncatec in game treatment)! Much better!

Oh yes please go on, game will be sold as long as you work for free, and wee'll get the bills!

*All in one voice* Oooooo....W love you so much Beth, fuck us deeper and deeper!

*********

Atch ptfiou *spiting at ground*
I'm tired of all that, since Dungeon Siege sold itself as "the new RPG generation" ^^ lol.

Anyway Oblivion involved me in a great rôleplaying forwarding : I reinstalled Planescape Torment.

*********

But anyway great real thanks for the TESC. Whatever is it's commercial startegic purpose, it's a real fine moding tool (yes, i know, some are better). That's finally the why i do not absolutely regret to have pay my bill.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Nice review, VD!

I am curious to see the reaction of other forums, TES especially, to this review, given the dev quotes and all. Have any of you guys seen any reaction yet?

It's probably going to be the usual "Fucking elitist rpg snobs!" or "You didn't play it right" or "You suck!", but I'm curious, nevertheless.

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... pic=396547
http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... pic=397047
http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... pic=396334

 

[Section8]

I'll stick to the professional reviews, thanks. THEY'VE never been wrong.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

IT IS THE JOB OF THE PLAYER TO ROLEPLAY! That is what we had to do in Baldurs Gate or even pen and paper. We had great dialogue in Baldurs Gate, but the world? It was cool at the time but it really didn't offer anything. In Baldurs Gate we had the illusion of choice and that illusion was created within dialogue or text!!! In Oblivion the roleplaying for good or worse is not created in text and it is our responsibility.

Oh right. Glad they cleared that up. Remove text = Roleplay it yourself!