Decline On why boss combat is shit (and why your favorite Soulslike sucks).

[Ol' Willy]

To understand why, imagine the video game version of "bosses" in a movie or a book (so called more serious and mature entertainment media).

The entire movie is essentially about fighting a "boss"

This one too

Etc

 

[ciox]

You mentioned arcade games yourself, the answer is right there because bosses in arcade games were good and modern game devs just need to get good at replicating that in modern games. Nothing wrong with the boss concept itself.

 

[NecroLord]

90s FPS bosses also don't get enough credit.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

I see where you're coming from, but effect and intention must always be considered. Incoherence is a tool. Irrationality is a tool. Surprise is a tool. Even absurdity is a tool.

Yes, those can be tools, but if you want out-of-the-box approaches for video games, try something like Disco Elysium or Return of the Obra Dinn, having 30-130 bosses that you overcome by dying over and over is not artistic absurdity, it's an absurdity of design.

You consider it absurd. But you can't make your opinions fact by calling them "design".

That's why I keep saying you should stop hiding behind relativism. If I say the sky is blue, you can't say "oh but to somebody with pink eye from their gay bf's ass it looks brown". Some stuff is patently obvious to people with triple digit IQ.

What you seem to have meant when making this thread is that you don't like it when games establish mechanical rules and then break them. That's probably fair and correct in most cases. You just chose some very unfortunate examples in your OP. Most games that break their established rules and patterns with bosses probably aren't doing anything creative or interesting and are in fact just doing something retarded for no good reason. As I said last post, we should talk about this case by case. There are games with rule breaking bosses that use them interestingly. Just like there are shows and movies that break with reality and sense in ways that are interesting.

Dude, please stop putting words in my mouth. I meant exactly what I said, which is that boss trope in games is obsolete and needs to be done away with, since it brings nothing but decline.

I am not putting words in your mouth you autist. I am making inferences, which is necessary because you are so bad at communication. What you have said is not incompatible with what I said. In that quote I am making your point but more developed and articulate to the point you apparently can't even recognise it.

Alas, you are not really saying anything, just some bland platitudes that mean nothing. So I am just rolling with it.

From I'm certain could figure out how to make something like Mountain Blade. Simple spread of possible inputs mirrored between two parties. They could, but they don't. Like most people making games that aren't like this, they had something else they wanted to do. They didn't fail to do what you want. They succeeded in doing what they wanted.

Kind of a strawman. I am not claiming all games should be historical. There are plenty of fantasy games with relatively realistic mechanics: Battle Brothers, Witcher series, nuShadowrun games, etc.

My point is not that From games could be more historical. My point is that they could be more mechanically consistent and sound. These games are seriously thought out top to bottom. When they get weird and unwieldy it's on purpose.

That upside down unicycle wheel on a stool, that passed for post-modernist art, was also very thought out. Doesn't mean a thing, do it?

Again, we should talk about actual hard examples to make our points. Plenty of "post-modernist art" does have its own kind of sense. And plenty doesn't. Whether or not something means anything requires investigation on a case by case basis. As I've already covered in this thread and elsewhere, From have very rich and readily discernible intentions behind every element of their games.

But we are not talking about every element in From Software games. We are talking about one very specific element, which has gotten worse over time.

No, not at all. Please don't bring in some weird "relativism" into this. It is patently obvious to anyone above 12 that a movie/book with constant epic dragon/giant/Godzilla/whatever fights will not pass for a serious work, and is just campy tripe. But in games, this is ok because they are still maturing.

My idea of a serious work is fineness of craft and fullness of expressed intention. From have just about everyone beaten here. In most forms of media today.

The best thing about FromSoftware games is also the thing they have been working away from: beautifully designed and crafted gameworlds with an interesting mythology, stuff to find and discover and so on. But as we go from Demon Souls and Dark Souls to Dark Souls 3/Elden Ring/Sekiro, all that stuff is mostly sacrificed to focus the game on a progression of hair pulling bosses. So there you go.

What do you mean sacrificed? It's there every time. The fights get harder to scale with the experiences and expectations of the audience, but the added complexity in every game still errs on the side of favouring the player. You have so many tools in Elden Ring that you can completely break the game in your favour with minimal skill. This reached the point where the most popular meme after the game's release was a reaction to this. "You did not beat the game." This stuck because there were so many ways to "beat" Elden Ring with minimal skill that people got upset.

If you're too dumb to figure out the bell I'm surprised you can work a forum.

This is your dumbest argument yet. So I am supposed to feel better because their boss fights have gotten so ridiculously hard to do properly (ie with dodging/parrying/actual legit combat mechanics), that they now depend on introducing various cheating ways to get past them?

I have no problem admitting Elden Ring, etc are aesthetically beautiful. But the focus on stupid boss fights negates this to a large degree. And I feel like those things appeal to different audiences anyway. The aesthetics/lore appeal to one set of people, the twitchy boss fights appeal to the less mature crowd.

I believe that anybody who views these elements in isolation (everyone but me and a few of my friends) is an idiot who is missing the true extent of From's vision.

Yeah, ok, From's true vision is to combine the intricacies of their layered worlds and the beauty of their thematic art with the infinite stamina, 360 degree tracking, flying like a flea in heat on acid, 3 Frame attack after a feint boss. I believe ya, bra.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

To understand why, imagine the video game version of "bosses" in a movie or a book (so called more serious and mature entertainment media).

The entire movie is essentially about fighting a "boss"

This one too

Etc

1. FFS, Terminator had nothing on video game bosses. Being a robot, he had more "hitpoints" than a human, probably somewhat better aim with computer tracking, maybe some abilities, but overall, he was human-sized, using human weapons, and certainly easily destroyed with certain weaponry. Whereas a typical video game boss is more on the level of Godzilla, Kong, Superman, etc.
2. In the movies, they had to kill him once in a 2 hour long movie. In video games, you have to fight bosses hundreds of times over 60+ hour long games. Surely you realize how this changes the dynamics?

 

[GamerCat_]

I see where you're coming from, but effect and intention must always be considered. Incoherence is a tool. Irrationality is a tool. Surprise is a tool. Even absurdity is a tool.

Yes, those can be tools, but if you want out-of-the-box approaches for video games, try something like Disco Elysium or Return of the Obra Dinn, having 30-130 bosses that you overcome by dying over and over is not artistic absurdity, it's an absurdity of design.

You consider it absurd. But you can't make your opinions fact by calling them "design".

That's why I keep saying you should stop hiding behind relativism. If I say the sky is blue, you can't say "oh but to somebody with pink eye from their gay bf's ass it looks brown". Some stuff is patently obvious to people with triple digit IQ.

This is a relative matter. And your beliefs are not obvious to anybody but yourself. Look at the state of this thread.

Alas, you are not really saying anything, just some bland platitudes that mean nothing. So I am just rolling with it.

This is a very bad impersonation of a smart person's language.

Again, we should talk about actual hard examples to make our points. Plenty of "post-modernist art" does have its own kind of sense. And plenty doesn't. Whether or not something means anything requires investigation on a case by case basis. As I've already covered in this thread and elsewhere, From have very rich and readily discernible intentions behind every element of their games.

But we are not talking about every element in From Software games. We are talking about one very specific element, which has gotten worse over time.

You believe it's getting worse. I don't. There is a case to be made for the structure of From's games and you simply don't respect it. You haven't answered it. Maybe you believe it's not necessary to because it's so obviously wrong. But even someone as autistic as yourself is surely going to notice eventually that nobody else thinks like you do.

No, not at all. Please don't bring in some weird "relativism" into this. It is patently obvious to anyone above 12 that a movie/book with constant epic dragon/giant/Godzilla/whatever fights will not pass for a serious work, and is just campy tripe. But in games, this is ok because they are still maturing.

My idea of a serious work is fineness of craft and fullness of expressed intention. From have just about everyone beaten here. In most forms of media today.

The best thing about FromSoftware games is also the thing they have been working away from: beautifully designed and crafted gameworlds with an interesting mythology, stuff to find and discover and so on. But as we go from Demon Souls and Dark Souls to Dark Souls 3/Elden Ring/Sekiro, all that stuff is mostly sacrificed to focus the game on a progression of hair pulling bosses. So there you go.

What do you mean sacrificed? It's there every time. The fights get harder to scale with the experiences and expectations of the audience, but the added complexity in every game still errs on the side of favouring the player. You have so many tools in Elden Ring that you can completely break the game in your favour with minimal skill. This reached the point where the most popular meme after the game's release was a reaction to this. "You did not beat the game." This stuck because there were so many ways to "beat" Elden Ring with minimal skill that people got upset.

If you're too dumb to figure out the bell I'm surprised you can work a forum.

This is your dumbest argument yet. So I am supposed to feel better because their boss fights have gotten so ridiculously hard to do properly (ie with dodging/parrying/actual legit combat mechanics), that they now depend on introducing various cheating ways to get past them?

"Actual legit", why don't you try refining this thought into a coherent principle we can apply elsewhere? Because right now it looks like you're just declaring your feelings to be rules again.

"Cheating". Fucking hell, you're basically a child. If it wasn't obvious already I consider you too far gone to reach. My part of this exchange is a show for potential observers. You can't think.

I have no problem admitting Elden Ring, etc are aesthetically beautiful. But the focus on stupid boss fights negates this to a large degree. And I feel like those things appeal to different audiences anyway. The aesthetics/lore appeal to one set of people, the twitchy boss fights appeal to the less mature crowd.

I believe that anybody who views these elements in isolation (everyone but me and a few of my friends) is an idiot who is missing the true extent of From's vision.

Yeah, ok, From's true vision is to combine the intricacies of their layered worlds and the beauty of their thematic art with the infinite stamina, 360 degree tracking, flying like a flea in heat on acid, 3 Frame attack after a feint boss. I believe ya, bra.

Yes actually, that's exactly what they're doing.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

I see where you're coming from, but effect and intention must always be considered. Incoherence is a tool. Irrationality is a tool. Surprise is a tool. Even absurdity is a tool.

Yes, those can be tools, but if you want out-of-the-box approaches for video games, try something like Disco Elysium or Return of the Obra Dinn, having 30-130 bosses that you overcome by dying over and over is not artistic absurdity, it's an absurdity of design.

You consider it absurd. But you can't make your opinions fact by calling them "design".

That's why I keep saying you should stop hiding behind relativism. If I say the sky is blue, you can't say "oh but to somebody with pink eye from their gay bf's ass it looks brown". Some stuff is patently obvious to people with triple digit IQ.

This is a relative matter. And your beliefs are not obvious to anybody but yourself. Look at the state of this thread.

Nope, it's really not. Big bosses in games are patently juvenile and moronic. If you assume that roughly half the population has double digit IQ, that explains the breakdown of this thread.

Alas, you are not really saying anything, just some bland platitudes that mean nothing. So I am just rolling with it.

This is a very bad impersonation of a smart person's language.

I can't impersonate myself, old chap.

Again, we should talk about actual hard examples to make our points. Plenty of "post-modernist art" does have its own kind of sense. And plenty doesn't. Whether or not something means anything requires investigation on a case by case basis. As I've already covered in this thread and elsewhere, From have very rich and readily discernible intentions behind every element of their games.

But we are not talking about every element in From Software games. We are talking about one very specific element, which has gotten worse over time.

You believe it's getting worse. I don't. There is a case to be made for the structure of From's games and you simply don't respect it. You haven't answered it. Maybe you believe it's not necessary to because it's so obviously wrong. But even someone as autistic as yourself is surely going to notice eventually that nobody else thinks like you do.

That's where you are wrong. Most smart people agree that FromSoftware games have declined over time (surprise, surprise). You are just not privy to those circles.

They went from bosses being a puzzle-like change of pace thing that you had to solve (Demon Souls), to combat change of pace thing that were challenging to defeat compared to regular mobs (Dark Souls) to being 90% of the game by Dark Souls 3/Elden Ring/Sekiro.

No, not at all. Please don't bring in some weird "relativism" into this. It is patently obvious to anyone above 12 that a movie/book with constant epic dragon/giant/Godzilla/whatever fights will not pass for a serious work, and is just campy tripe. But in games, this is ok because they are still maturing.

My idea of a serious work is fineness of craft and fullness of expressed intention. From have just about everyone beaten here. In most forms of media today.

The best thing about FromSoftware games is also the thing they have been working away from: beautifully designed and crafted gameworlds with an interesting mythology, stuff to find and discover and so on. But as we go from Demon Souls and Dark Souls to Dark Souls 3/Elden Ring/Sekiro, all that stuff is mostly sacrificed to focus the game on a progression of hair pulling bosses. So there you go.

What do you mean sacrificed? It's there every time. The fights get harder to scale with the experiences and expectations of the audience, but the added complexity in every game still errs on the side of favouring the player. You have so many tools in Elden Ring that you can completely break the game in your favour with minimal skill. This reached the point where the most popular meme after the game's release was a reaction to this. "You did not beat the game." This stuck because there were so many ways to "beat" Elden Ring with minimal skill that people got upset.

If you're too dumb to figure out the bell I'm surprised you can work a forum.

This is your dumbest argument yet. So I am supposed to feel better because their boss fights have gotten so ridiculously hard to do properly (ie with dodging/parrying/actual legit combat mechanics), that they now depend on introducing various cheating ways to get past them?

"Actual legit", why don't you try refining this thought into a coherent principle we can apply elsewhere? Because right now it looks like you're just declaring your feelings to be rules again.

"Cheating". Fucking hell, you're basically a child. If it wasn't obvious already I consider you too far gone to reach. My part of this exchange is a show for potential observers. You can't think.

Now apply some soothing ointment to your butt and unclench your sphincter. It won't hurt so bad.

If you don't understand the difference between actual combat mechanics and cheating mechanics, you are beyond help, dawg. Might as well start playing Sims and transition.

I have no problem admitting Elden Ring, etc are aesthetically beautiful. But the focus on stupid boss fights negates this to a large degree. And I feel like those things appeal to different audiences anyway. The aesthetics/lore appeal to one set of people, the twitchy boss fights appeal to the less mature crowd.

I believe that anybody who views these elements in isolation (everyone but me and a few of my friends) is an idiot who is missing the true extent of From's vision.

Yeah, ok, From's true vision is to combine the intricacies of their layered worlds and the beauty of their thematic art with the infinite stamina, 360 degree tracking, flying like a flea in heat on acid, 3 Frame attack after a feint boss. I believe ya, bra.

Yes actually, that's exactly what they're doing.

Yes, in the world of the 80IQ man, I am sure they are.

 

[GamerCat_]

This is a relative matter. And your beliefs are not obvious to anybody but yourself. Look at the state of this thread.

Nope, it's really not. Big bosses in games are patently juvenile and moronic. If you assume that roughly half the population has double digit IQ, that explains the breakdown of this thread.

Most people are horrifically stupid, as I've said elsewhere. And as I've also said, pinning officious language to your beliefs does not make them objective. It does make you look like a moron with a fetishistic appreciation of language.

This is a very bad impersonation of a smart person's language.

I can't impersonate myself, old chap.

I'm not going to post the hat man but you're doing the hat man thing.

You believe it's getting worse. I don't. There is a case to be made for the structure of From's games and you simply don't respect it. You haven't answered it. Maybe you believe it's not necessary to because it's so obviously wrong. But even someone as autistic as yourself is surely going to notice eventually that nobody else thinks like you do.

That's where you are wrong. Most smart people agree that FromSoftware games have declined over time (surprise, surprise). You are just not privy to those circles.

And what do they say? Do they just say "obviously" and "patently" a lot? Is that the difference between an intelligent and an unintelligent opinion?

They went from bosses being a puzzle-like change of pace thing that you had to solve (Demon Souls), to combat change of pace thing that were challenging to defeat compared to regular mobs (Dark Souls) to being 90% of the game by Dark Souls 3/Elden Ring/Sekiro.

You haven't explained why either thing is good or bad. And the "bosses" are not 90% of the latter games unless you are absolutely abysmal at them, probably due to a failure to appreciate what you're meant to be doing. If you consider options the game explicitly gives you "cheating" then you're just being obstinate, if not outright petulant.

Now apply some soothing ointment to your butt and unclench your sphincter. It won't hurt so bad.

If you don't understand the difference between actual combat mechanics and cheating mechanics, you are beyond help, dawg. Might as well start playing Sims and transition.

Niggerisms in language alongside an assertion that caring about anything makes you uncool. Could you be more of an autistic genexer moron? Could you be more transparently driven by psychological hangups and dullard's obstinacy?

I tried to be nice for a few posts but you are clearly a genuine autist incapable of appreciating the workings of other minds, while at the same time you are too stupid to contain anything of redeeming interest in your own mind. Your existence is pointless. Allowing your kind to observe art is a mistake. You'd get as much out of observing paint dry. Your attempts at impersonating appreciation (which you feel compelled to do) are just pollution in the noosphere.

 

[Odoryuk]

If you don't understand the difference between actual combat mechanics and cheating mechanics, you are beyond help, dawg. Might as well start playing Sims and transition.

Please, do tell me about these cheating mechanics. Give me some examples.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

The problem with boss combat is western developers seem to largely suck at doing boss fights for some reason. Which is probably why you’ll probably only ever hear western developers say stupid shit like: Haven’t games evolved beyond the need for boss fights? But other than that boss fights are pretty great.

The origin of fighting games is in boss fights. The first Street Fighter game is essentially a boss rush game, an evolution of the series creator Takashi Nishiyama’s previous game Kung-Fu Master. Street Fighter took the boss encounters in Kung-Fu Master, focused on that, and fleshed them out into something more complicated. When the new team made Street Fighter 2, instead of just having one playable character like the previous game, (the first SF did have Ken on the Player 2 side, but gameplay wise he was just Player 2 Ryu) they made everyone but the final boss characters (the Four Heavenly Kings) playable. Takashi Nishiyama’s Fatal Fury game, which was in development at the same time as Capcom’s Street Fighter 2 still keep the more boss rush feel of the first Street Fighter but had three playable characters instead of just one. Boss fights are so cool they spawned a how genre.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Pretty much everyone sucks at doing boss fights, honestly. You get a rare few good ones here or there, but mostly it's either a memorization test or a 'dodge until his pants fall down then knife him in the dick' fight. Often both at once.

A proper long fight shouldn't be repetitive nor should it be a test of luck to have a fight where the boss doesn't use his best moves. The boss needs to have a large variety of behavours, and they need to be reasonably balanced and possible to understand by observing. The boss needs to be vulnerable to multiple different strategies, not just a single gimmick. Finally, the boss needs to not kill you too quickly or there's no time to engage with the boss and learn anything about it.

Most games fail right out of the gate because they discard the concept of attrition- they either kill you before your resources can be used, or your resources are functionally endless.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

To understand why, imagine the video game version of "bosses" in a movie or a book (so called more serious and mature entertainment media).

The entire movie is essentially about fighting a "boss"

This one too

Etc

The “imagine the video game version of "bosses" in a movie or a book” comment is pretty funny.

Any fight in an action movie where the protagonist doesn’t easily take out their opponent is the movie version of a boss fight. The Agents in The Matrix would be boss fights. Any time The Bride fights one of the Deadly Viper Assassination Squad would be a boss fight. The shark at the end of Jaws is a boss fight. The Predator in Predator is a boss fight. The giant snake in Conan the Barbarian is a boss fight. Freddy Krueger, Jason Voorhees, Pazuzu... they’re boss fights.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

Writing that reminded me of this:

 

[NecroLord]

To understand why, imagine the video game version of "bosses" in a movie or a book (so called more serious and mature entertainment media).

The entire movie is essentially about fighting a "boss"

This one too

Etc

The “imagine the video game version of "bosses" in a movie or a book” comment is pretty funny.

Any fight in an action movie where the protagonist doesn’t easily take out their opponent is the movie version of a boss fight. The Agents in The Matrix would be boss fights. Any time The Bride fights one of the Deadly Viper Assassination Squad would be a boss fight. The shark at the end of Jaws is a boss fight. The Predator in Predator is a boss fight. The giant snake in Conan the Barbarian is a boss fight. Freddy Krueger, Jason Voorhees, Pazuzu... they’re boss fights.

We are going into autism territory now.

 

[Hellraiser]

We are going into autism territory now.

Now?

 

[Merkwürdigliebe]

The boss fights in Sekiro are generally fantastic, and Isshin Ashina is easily the best boss fight ever made. You can disagree if you want to, but your opinion would be objectively wrong.
Other games just need to step up their game design from tired old sit around and wait for the boss to reveal it's weak point so you can poke it once or twice and then repeat.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

There is a whole cult of gamers who think Dark Souls, Sekiro, Elden Ring, and similar games like Nioh represent the height of video game combat or action RPG combat. I will now proceed to explain to you why they are wrong.

Why bother? That's a retarded notion to begin with.

Boss combat

Ah, you are just being salty, aight.

 

[Lyric Suite]

"FromSoft is popular, that means their games are now shit and in fact always were"

- A typical Codexian thread.

[EDIT] Oh wait it's faggot the paladin. Should have known.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

This is a relative matter. And your beliefs are not obvious to anybody but yourself. Look at the state of this thread.

Nope, it's really not. Big bosses in games are patently juvenile and moronic. If you assume that roughly half the population has double digit IQ, that explains the breakdown of this thread.

Most people are horrifically stupid, as I've said elsewhere. And as I've also said, pinning officious language to your beliefs does not make them objective. It does make you look like a moron with a fetishistic appreciation of language.

And as I have said elsewhere, bosses are juvenile and moronic.

This is a very bad impersonation of a smart person's language.

I can't impersonate myself, old chap.

I'm not going to post the hat man but you're doing the hat man thing.

You believe it's getting worse. I don't. There is a case to be made for the structure of From's games and you simply don't respect it. You haven't answered it. Maybe you believe it's not necessary to because it's so obviously wrong. But even someone as autistic as yourself is surely going to notice eventually that nobody else thinks like you do.

That's where you are wrong. Most smart people agree that FromSoftware games have declined over time (surprise, surprise). You are just not privy to those circles.

And what do they say? Do they just say "obviously" and "patently" a lot? Is that the difference between an intelligent and an unintelligent opinion?

It also encapsulates the ability to distinguish simple and self-obvious truths.

They went from bosses being a puzzle-like change of pace thing that you had to solve (Demon Souls), to combat change of pace thing that were challenging to defeat compared to regular mobs (Dark Souls) to being 90% of the game by Dark Souls 3/Elden Ring/Sekiro.

You haven't explained why either thing is good or bad. And the "bosses" are not 90% of the latter games unless you are absolutely abysmal at them, probably due to a failure to appreciate what you're meant to be doing. If you consider options the game explicitly gives you "cheating" then you're just being obstinate, if not outright petulant.

Sure I did. You are just choosing to ignore my detailed and excellent, dare I say, explanations.

Now apply some soothing ointment to your butt and unclench your sphincter. It won't hurt so bad.

If you don't understand the difference between actual combat mechanics and cheating mechanics, you are beyond help, dawg. Might as well start playing Sims and transition.

Niggerisms in language alongside an assertion that caring about anything makes you uncool. Could you be more of an autistic genexer moron? Could you be more transparently driven by psychological hangups and dullard's obstinacy?

I tried to be nice for a few posts but you are clearly a genuine autist incapable of appreciating the workings of other minds, while at the same time you are too stupid to contain anything of redeeming interest in your own mind. Your existence is pointless. Allowing your kind to observe art is a mistake. You'd get as much out of observing paint dry. Your attempts at impersonating appreciation (which you feel compelled to do) are just pollution in the noosphere.

All I hear is a lot of whining about refusing to accept a fairly obvious statement, along the lines of the sky being blue.

If you don't understand the difference between actual combat mechanics and cheating mechanics, you are beyond help, dawg. Might as well start playing Sims and transition.

Please, do tell me about these cheating mechanics. Give me some examples.

Literally every single way in which most people beat Elden Ring: summoning NPCs/players to help fight bosses, using cheese strategies like bleeding enchantments on weapons, stupid weapon arts, etc.

The problem with boss combat is western developers seem to largely suck at doing boss fights for some reason. Which is probably why you’ll probably only ever hear western developers say stupid shit like: Haven’t games evolved beyond the need for boss fights? But other than that boss fights are pretty great.

The origin of fighting games is in boss fights. The first Street Fighter game is essentially a boss rush game, an evolution of the series creator Takashi Nishiyama’s previous game Kung-Fu Master. Street Fighter took the boss encounters in Kung-Fu Master, focused on that, and fleshed them out into something more complicated. When the new team made Street Fighter 2, instead of just having one playable character like the previous game, (the first SF did have Ken on the Player 2 side, but gameplay wise he was just Player 2 Ryu) they made everyone but the final boss characters (the Four Heavenly Kings) playable. Takashi Nishiyama’s Fatal Fury game, which was in development at the same time as Capcom’s Street Fighter 2 still keep the more boss rush feel of the first Street Fighter but had three playable characters instead of just one. Boss fights are so cool they spawned a how genre.

Nobody likes fighting games though, beyond some juvenile retards. So there you go.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

Nobody likes fighting games though, beyond some juvenile retards.

You're just pretending to be retarded, right?

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Nobody likes fighting games though, beyond some juvenile retards.

You're just pretending to be retarded, right?

Truth hurts.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Welcome to my serious RPG. Those are your enemies.

...more examples? No, it's just those two. We're not playing some baby game here, this is a serious RPG for serious....where are you going? I'm not finished.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Welcome to my serious RPG. Those are your enemies.

...more examples? No, it's just those two. We're not playing some baby game here, this is a serious RPG for serious....where are you going? I'm not finished.

This is the kind of midwit troglodyte comment that shows how the average Codexer cannot think for themselves. It is precisely BECAUSE having regular enemies removes the crutch of stupid abilities that combat in those types of games is usually a lot better. When you can't pull out random magic shit out of your ass, you have to actually design interesting combat systems, like in Operation Flashpoint/ARMA, in KCD, in Battle Brothers, in Expeditions: Viking, in Shadowrun: Dragonfall, in JA2, etc.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

False dichotomy, you can have both and not having one doesn't mean you'll do the other.

You're making the classic mistake of thinking that "thinking for yourself" will necessarily lead to something good, even though it might lead you to something retarded, which is why conventions exist. This is how intellectuals sniff their own farts until they decide that the universe started when nothing exploded into everything, how sociologists decided that math is racist, and how you sniffed your own sharts until you decided that the reason your RPGs aren't better is because they don't get enough inspiration from ARMA.

 

[GamerCat_]

This is a relative matter. And your beliefs are not obvious to anybody but yourself. Look at the state of this thread.

Nope, it's really not. Big bosses in games are patently juvenile and moronic. If you assume that roughly half the population has double digit IQ, that explains the breakdown of this thread.

Most people are horrifically stupid, as I've said elsewhere. And as I've also said, pinning officious language to your beliefs does not make them objective. It does make you look like a moron with a fetishistic appreciation of language.

And as I have said elsewhere, bosses are juvenile and moronic.

"as I have said elsewhere". someone pointed out to me that people on this site are already started to post like me, didn't see it until here.

When I refer to existing posts I'm referring people to prior elaborations to help understand my line of thinking. But you haven't expressed any previous thoughts that lead into where you're going. Do you believe that having said something before makes the thought more powerful?

It also encapsulates the ability to distinguish simple and self-obvious truths.

This is absurd.

They went from bosses being a puzzle-like change of pace thing that you had to solve (Demon Souls), to combat change of pace thing that were challenging to defeat compared to regular mobs (Dark Souls) to being 90% of the game by Dark Souls 3/Elden Ring/Sekiro.

You haven't explained why either thing is good or bad. And the "bosses" are not 90% of the latter games unless you are absolutely abysmal at them, probably due to a failure to appreciate what you're meant to be doing. If you consider options the game explicitly gives you "cheating" then you're just being obstinate, if not outright petulant.

Sure I did. You are just choosing to ignore my detailed and excellent, dare I say, explanations.

You say, as you ignore most of the text you are quoting.

All I hear is a lot of whining about refusing to accept a fairly obvious statement, along the lines of the sky being blue.

I think it's fairly obvious that you are a moderately functional autistic.

If you don't understand the difference between actual combat mechanics and cheating mechanics, you are beyond help, dawg. Might as well start playing Sims and transition.

Please, do tell me about these cheating mechanics. Give me some examples.

Literally every single way in which most people beat Elden Ring: summoning NPCs/players to help fight bosses, using cheese strategies like bleeding enchantments on weapons, stupid weapon arts, etc.

Could you explain what "cheating" is? Don't give examples. Explain the difference between cheating and not cheating.