Ol' Willy
Arcane
To understand why, imagine the video game version of "bosses" in a movie or a book (so called more serious and mature entertainment media).
The entire movie is essentially about fighting a "boss"
This one too
Etc
To understand why, imagine the video game version of "bosses" in a movie or a book (so called more serious and mature entertainment media).
You consider it absurd. But you can't make your opinions fact by calling them "design".I see where you're coming from, but effect and intention must always be considered. Incoherence is a tool. Irrationality is a tool. Surprise is a tool. Even absurdity is a tool.
Yes, those can be tools, but if you want out-of-the-box approaches for video games, try something like Disco Elysium or Return of the Obra Dinn, having 30-130 bosses that you overcome by dying over and over is not artistic absurdity, it's an absurdity of design.
I am not putting words in your mouth you autist. I am making inferences, which is necessary because you are so bad at communication. What you have said is not incompatible with what I said. In that quote I am making your point but more developed and articulate to the point you apparently can't even recognise it.What you seem to have meant when making this thread is that you don't like it when games establish mechanical rules and then break them. That's probably fair and correct in most cases. You just chose some very unfortunate examples in your OP. Most games that break their established rules and patterns with bosses probably aren't doing anything creative or interesting and are in fact just doing something retarded for no good reason. As I said last post, we should talk about this case by case. There are games with rule breaking bosses that use them interestingly. Just like there are shows and movies that break with reality and sense in ways that are interesting.
Dude, please stop putting words in my mouth. I meant exactly what I said, which is that boss trope in games is obsolete and needs to be done away with, since it brings nothing but decline.
Again, we should talk about actual hard examples to make our points. Plenty of "post-modernist art" does have its own kind of sense. And plenty doesn't. Whether or not something means anything requires investigation on a case by case basis. As I've already covered in this thread and elsewhere, From have very rich and readily discernible intentions behind every element of their games.My point is not that From games could be more historical. My point is that they could be more mechanically consistent and sound. These games are seriously thought out top to bottom. When they get weird and unwieldy it's on purpose.From I'm certain could figure out how to make something like Mountain Blade. Simple spread of possible inputs mirrored between two parties. They could, but they don't. Like most people making games that aren't like this, they had something else they wanted to do. They didn't fail to do what you want. They succeeded in doing what they wanted.
Kind of a strawman. I am not claiming all games should be historical. There are plenty of fantasy games with relatively realistic mechanics: Battle Brothers, Witcher series, nuShadowrun games, etc.
That upside down unicycle wheel on a stool, that passed for post-modernist art, was also very thought out. Doesn't mean a thing, do it?
What do you mean sacrificed? It's there every time. The fights get harder to scale with the experiences and expectations of the audience, but the added complexity in every game still errs on the side of favouring the player. You have so many tools in Elden Ring that you can completely break the game in your favour with minimal skill. This reached the point where the most popular meme after the game's release was a reaction to this. "You did not beat the game." This stuck because there were so many ways to "beat" Elden Ring with minimal skill that people got upset.My idea of a serious work is fineness of craft and fullness of expressed intention. From have just about everyone beaten here. In most forms of media today.
No, not at all. Please don't bring in some weird "relativism" into this. It is patently obvious to anyone above 12 that a movie/book with constant epic dragon/giant/Godzilla/whatever fights will not pass for a serious work, and is just campy tripe. But in games, this is ok because they are still maturing.
The best thing about FromSoftware games is also the thing they have been working away from: beautifully designed and crafted gameworlds with an interesting mythology, stuff to find and discover and so on. But as we go from Demon Souls and Dark Souls to Dark Souls 3/Elden Ring/Sekiro, all that stuff is mostly sacrificed to focus the game on a progression of hair pulling bosses. So there you go.
If you're too dumb to figure out the bell I'm surprised you can work a forum.
I believe that anybody who views these elements in isolation (everyone but me and a few of my friends) is an idiot who is missing the true extent of From's vision.I have no problem admitting Elden Ring, etc are aesthetically beautiful. But the focus on stupid boss fights negates this to a large degree. And I feel like those things appeal to different audiences anyway. The aesthetics/lore appeal to one set of people, the twitchy boss fights appeal to the less mature crowd.
To understand why, imagine the video game version of "bosses" in a movie or a book (so called more serious and mature entertainment media).
The entire movie is essentially about fighting a "boss"
This one too
Etc
This is a relative matter. And your beliefs are not obvious to anybody but yourself. Look at the state of this thread.You consider it absurd. But you can't make your opinions fact by calling them "design".I see where you're coming from, but effect and intention must always be considered. Incoherence is a tool. Irrationality is a tool. Surprise is a tool. Even absurdity is a tool.
Yes, those can be tools, but if you want out-of-the-box approaches for video games, try something like Disco Elysium or Return of the Obra Dinn, having 30-130 bosses that you overcome by dying over and over is not artistic absurdity, it's an absurdity of design.
That's why I keep saying you should stop hiding behind relativism. If I say the sky is blue, you can't say "oh but to somebody with pink eye from their gay bf's ass it looks brown". Some stuff is patently obvious to people with triple digit IQ.
This is a very bad impersonation of a smart person's language.
Alas, you are not really saying anything, just some bland platitudes that mean nothing. So I am just rolling with it.
You believe it's getting worse. I don't. There is a case to be made for the structure of From's games and you simply don't respect it. You haven't answered it. Maybe you believe it's not necessary to because it's so obviously wrong. But even someone as autistic as yourself is surely going to notice eventually that nobody else thinks like you do.Again, we should talk about actual hard examples to make our points. Plenty of "post-modernist art" does have its own kind of sense. And plenty doesn't. Whether or not something means anything requires investigation on a case by case basis. As I've already covered in this thread and elsewhere, From have very rich and readily discernible intentions behind every element of their games.
But we are not talking about every element in From Software games. We are talking about one very specific element, which has gotten worse over time.
"Actual legit", why don't you try refining this thought into a coherent principle we can apply elsewhere? Because right now it looks like you're just declaring your feelings to be rules again.What do you mean sacrificed? It's there every time. The fights get harder to scale with the experiences and expectations of the audience, but the added complexity in every game still errs on the side of favouring the player. You have so many tools in Elden Ring that you can completely break the game in your favour with minimal skill. This reached the point where the most popular meme after the game's release was a reaction to this. "You did not beat the game." This stuck because there were so many ways to "beat" Elden Ring with minimal skill that people got upset.My idea of a serious work is fineness of craft and fullness of expressed intention. From have just about everyone beaten here. In most forms of media today.
No, not at all. Please don't bring in some weird "relativism" into this. It is patently obvious to anyone above 12 that a movie/book with constant epic dragon/giant/Godzilla/whatever fights will not pass for a serious work, and is just campy tripe. But in games, this is ok because they are still maturing.
The best thing about FromSoftware games is also the thing they have been working away from: beautifully designed and crafted gameworlds with an interesting mythology, stuff to find and discover and so on. But as we go from Demon Souls and Dark Souls to Dark Souls 3/Elden Ring/Sekiro, all that stuff is mostly sacrificed to focus the game on a progression of hair pulling bosses. So there you go.
If you're too dumb to figure out the bell I'm surprised you can work a forum.
This is your dumbest argument yet. So I am supposed to feel better because their boss fights have gotten so ridiculously hard to do properly (ie with dodging/parrying/actual legit combat mechanics), that they now depend on introducing various cheating ways to get past them?
Yes actually, that's exactly what they're doing.I believe that anybody who views these elements in isolation (everyone but me and a few of my friends) is an idiot who is missing the true extent of From's vision.I have no problem admitting Elden Ring, etc are aesthetically beautiful. But the focus on stupid boss fights negates this to a large degree. And I feel like those things appeal to different audiences anyway. The aesthetics/lore appeal to one set of people, the twitchy boss fights appeal to the less mature crowd.
Yeah, ok, From's true vision is to combine the intricacies of their layered worlds and the beauty of their thematic art with the infinite stamina, 360 degree tracking, flying like a flea in heat on acid, 3 Frame attack after a feint boss. I believe ya, bra.
This is a relative matter. And your beliefs are not obvious to anybody but yourself. Look at the state of this thread.You consider it absurd. But you can't make your opinions fact by calling them "design".I see where you're coming from, but effect and intention must always be considered. Incoherence is a tool. Irrationality is a tool. Surprise is a tool. Even absurdity is a tool.
Yes, those can be tools, but if you want out-of-the-box approaches for video games, try something like Disco Elysium or Return of the Obra Dinn, having 30-130 bosses that you overcome by dying over and over is not artistic absurdity, it's an absurdity of design.
That's why I keep saying you should stop hiding behind relativism. If I say the sky is blue, you can't say "oh but to somebody with pink eye from their gay bf's ass it looks brown". Some stuff is patently obvious to people with triple digit IQ.
This is a very bad impersonation of a smart person's language.
Alas, you are not really saying anything, just some bland platitudes that mean nothing. So I am just rolling with it.
You believe it's getting worse. I don't. There is a case to be made for the structure of From's games and you simply don't respect it. You haven't answered it. Maybe you believe it's not necessary to because it's so obviously wrong. But even someone as autistic as yourself is surely going to notice eventually that nobody else thinks like you do.Again, we should talk about actual hard examples to make our points. Plenty of "post-modernist art" does have its own kind of sense. And plenty doesn't. Whether or not something means anything requires investigation on a case by case basis. As I've already covered in this thread and elsewhere, From have very rich and readily discernible intentions behind every element of their games.
But we are not talking about every element in From Software games. We are talking about one very specific element, which has gotten worse over time.
"Actual legit", why don't you try refining this thought into a coherent principle we can apply elsewhere? Because right now it looks like you're just declaring your feelings to be rules again.What do you mean sacrificed? It's there every time. The fights get harder to scale with the experiences and expectations of the audience, but the added complexity in every game still errs on the side of favouring the player. You have so many tools in Elden Ring that you can completely break the game in your favour with minimal skill. This reached the point where the most popular meme after the game's release was a reaction to this. "You did not beat the game." This stuck because there were so many ways to "beat" Elden Ring with minimal skill that people got upset.My idea of a serious work is fineness of craft and fullness of expressed intention. From have just about everyone beaten here. In most forms of media today.
No, not at all. Please don't bring in some weird "relativism" into this. It is patently obvious to anyone above 12 that a movie/book with constant epic dragon/giant/Godzilla/whatever fights will not pass for a serious work, and is just campy tripe. But in games, this is ok because they are still maturing.
The best thing about FromSoftware games is also the thing they have been working away from: beautifully designed and crafted gameworlds with an interesting mythology, stuff to find and discover and so on. But as we go from Demon Souls and Dark Souls to Dark Souls 3/Elden Ring/Sekiro, all that stuff is mostly sacrificed to focus the game on a progression of hair pulling bosses. So there you go.
If you're too dumb to figure out the bell I'm surprised you can work a forum.
This is your dumbest argument yet. So I am supposed to feel better because their boss fights have gotten so ridiculously hard to do properly (ie with dodging/parrying/actual legit combat mechanics), that they now depend on introducing various cheating ways to get past them?
"Cheating". Fucking hell, you're basically a child. If it wasn't obvious already I consider you too far gone to reach. My part of this exchange is a show for potential observers. You can't think.
Yes actually, that's exactly what they're doing.I believe that anybody who views these elements in isolation (everyone but me and a few of my friends) is an idiot who is missing the true extent of From's vision.I have no problem admitting Elden Ring, etc are aesthetically beautiful. But the focus on stupid boss fights negates this to a large degree. And I feel like those things appeal to different audiences anyway. The aesthetics/lore appeal to one set of people, the twitchy boss fights appeal to the less mature crowd.
Yeah, ok, From's true vision is to combine the intricacies of their layered worlds and the beauty of their thematic art with the infinite stamina, 360 degree tracking, flying like a flea in heat on acid, 3 Frame attack after a feint boss. I believe ya, bra.
Most people are horrifically stupid, as I've said elsewhere. And as I've also said, pinning officious language to your beliefs does not make them objective. It does make you look like a moron with a fetishistic appreciation of language.This is a relative matter. And your beliefs are not obvious to anybody but yourself. Look at the state of this thread.
Nope, it's really not. Big bosses in games are patently juvenile and moronic. If you assume that roughly half the population has double digit IQ, that explains the breakdown of this thread.
I'm not going to post the hat man but you're doing the hat man thing.This is a very bad impersonation of a smart person's language.
I can't impersonate myself, old chap.
And what do they say? Do they just say "obviously" and "patently" a lot? Is that the difference between an intelligent and an unintelligent opinion?You believe it's getting worse. I don't. There is a case to be made for the structure of From's games and you simply don't respect it. You haven't answered it. Maybe you believe it's not necessary to because it's so obviously wrong. But even someone as autistic as yourself is surely going to notice eventually that nobody else thinks like you do.
That's where you are wrong. Most smart people agree that FromSoftware games have declined over time (surprise, surprise). You are just not privy to those circles.
You haven't explained why either thing is good or bad. And the "bosses" are not 90% of the latter games unless you are absolutely abysmal at them, probably due to a failure to appreciate what you're meant to be doing. If you consider options the game explicitly gives you "cheating" then you're just being obstinate, if not outright petulant.They went from bosses being a puzzle-like change of pace thing that you had to solve (Demon Souls), to combat change of pace thing that were challenging to defeat compared to regular mobs (Dark Souls) to being 90% of the game by Dark Souls 3/Elden Ring/Sekiro.
Niggerisms in language alongside an assertion that caring about anything makes you uncool. Could you be more of an autistic genexer moron? Could you be more transparently driven by psychological hangups and dullard's obstinacy?
Now apply some soothing ointment to your butt and unclench your sphincter. It won't hurt so bad.
If you don't understand the difference between actual combat mechanics and cheating mechanics, you are beyond help, dawg. Might as well start playing Sims and transition.
Please, do tell me about these cheating mechanics. Give me some examples.If you don't understand the difference between actual combat mechanics and cheating mechanics, you are beyond help, dawg. Might as well start playing Sims and transition.
To understand why, imagine the video game version of "bosses" in a movie or a book (so called more serious and mature entertainment media).
The entire movie is essentially about fighting a "boss"
This one too
Etc
We are going into autism territory now.To understand why, imagine the video game version of "bosses" in a movie or a book (so called more serious and mature entertainment media).
The entire movie is essentially about fighting a "boss"
This one too
Etc
The “imagine the video game version of "bosses" in a movie or a book” comment is pretty funny.
Any fight in an action movie where the protagonist doesn’t easily take out their opponent is the movie version of a boss fight. The Agents in The Matrix would be boss fights. Any time The Bride fights one of the Deadly Viper Assassination Squad would be a boss fight. The shark at the end of Jaws is a boss fight. The Predator in Predator is a boss fight. The giant snake in Conan the Barbarian is a boss fight. Freddy Krueger, Jason Voorhees, Pazuzu... they’re boss fights.
We are going into autism territory now.
Why bother? That's a retarded notion to begin with.There is a whole cult of gamers who think Dark Souls, Sekiro, Elden Ring, and similar games like Nioh represent the height of video game combat or action RPG combat. I will now proceed to explain to you why they are wrong.
Ah, you are just being salty, aight.Boss combat
Most people are horrifically stupid, as I've said elsewhere. And as I've also said, pinning officious language to your beliefs does not make them objective. It does make you look like a moron with a fetishistic appreciation of language.This is a relative matter. And your beliefs are not obvious to anybody but yourself. Look at the state of this thread.
Nope, it's really not. Big bosses in games are patently juvenile and moronic. If you assume that roughly half the population has double digit IQ, that explains the breakdown of this thread.
I'm not going to post the hat man but you're doing the hat man thing.This is a very bad impersonation of a smart person's language.
I can't impersonate myself, old chap.
And what do they say? Do they just say "obviously" and "patently" a lot? Is that the difference between an intelligent and an unintelligent opinion?You believe it's getting worse. I don't. There is a case to be made for the structure of From's games and you simply don't respect it. You haven't answered it. Maybe you believe it's not necessary to because it's so obviously wrong. But even someone as autistic as yourself is surely going to notice eventually that nobody else thinks like you do.
That's where you are wrong. Most smart people agree that FromSoftware games have declined over time (surprise, surprise). You are just not privy to those circles.
You haven't explained why either thing is good or bad. And the "bosses" are not 90% of the latter games unless you are absolutely abysmal at them, probably due to a failure to appreciate what you're meant to be doing. If you consider options the game explicitly gives you "cheating" then you're just being obstinate, if not outright petulant.They went from bosses being a puzzle-like change of pace thing that you had to solve (Demon Souls), to combat change of pace thing that were challenging to defeat compared to regular mobs (Dark Souls) to being 90% of the game by Dark Souls 3/Elden Ring/Sekiro.
Niggerisms in language alongside an assertion that caring about anything makes you uncool. Could you be more of an autistic genexer moron? Could you be more transparently driven by psychological hangups and dullard's obstinacy?
Now apply some soothing ointment to your butt and unclench your sphincter. It won't hurt so bad.
If you don't understand the difference between actual combat mechanics and cheating mechanics, you are beyond help, dawg. Might as well start playing Sims and transition.
I tried to be nice for a few posts but you are clearly a genuine autist incapable of appreciating the workings of other minds, while at the same time you are too stupid to contain anything of redeeming interest in your own mind. Your existence is pointless. Allowing your kind to observe art is a mistake. You'd get as much out of observing paint dry. Your attempts at impersonating appreciation (which you feel compelled to do) are just pollution in the noosphere.
Please, do tell me about these cheating mechanics. Give me some examples.If you don't understand the difference between actual combat mechanics and cheating mechanics, you are beyond help, dawg. Might as well start playing Sims and transition.
The problem with boss combat is western developers seem to largely suck at doing boss fights for some reason. Which is probably why you’ll probably only ever hear western developers say stupid shit like: Haven’t games evolved beyond the need for boss fights? But other than that boss fights are pretty great.
The origin of fighting games is in boss fights. The first Street Fighter game is essentially a boss rush game, an evolution of the series creator Takashi Nishiyama’s previous game Kung-Fu Master. Street Fighter took the boss encounters in Kung-Fu Master, focused on that, and fleshed them out into something more complicated. When the new team made Street Fighter 2, instead of just having one playable character like the previous game, (the first SF did have Ken on the Player 2 side, but gameplay wise he was just Player 2 Ryu) they made everyone but the final boss characters (the Four Heavenly Kings) playable. Takashi Nishiyama’s Fatal Fury game, which was in development at the same time as Capcom’s Street Fighter 2 still keep the more boss rush feel of the first Street Fighter but had three playable characters instead of just one. Boss fights are so cool they spawned a how genre.
You're just pretending to be retarded, right?Nobody likes fighting games though, beyond some juvenile retards.
You're just pretending to be retarded, right?Nobody likes fighting games though, beyond some juvenile retards.
Welcome to my serious RPG. Those are your enemies.
...more examples? No, it's just those two. We're not playing some baby game here, this is a serious RPG for serious....where are you going? I'm not finished.
"as I have said elsewhere". someone pointed out to me that people on this site are already started to post like me, didn't see it until here.Most people are horrifically stupid, as I've said elsewhere. And as I've also said, pinning officious language to your beliefs does not make them objective. It does make you look like a moron with a fetishistic appreciation of language.This is a relative matter. And your beliefs are not obvious to anybody but yourself. Look at the state of this thread.
Nope, it's really not. Big bosses in games are patently juvenile and moronic. If you assume that roughly half the population has double digit IQ, that explains the breakdown of this thread.
And as I have said elsewhere, bosses are juvenile and moronic.
This is absurd.
It also encapsulates the ability to distinguish simple and self-obvious truths.
You say, as you ignore most of the text you are quoting.You haven't explained why either thing is good or bad. And the "bosses" are not 90% of the latter games unless you are absolutely abysmal at them, probably due to a failure to appreciate what you're meant to be doing. If you consider options the game explicitly gives you "cheating" then you're just being obstinate, if not outright petulant.They went from bosses being a puzzle-like change of pace thing that you had to solve (Demon Souls), to combat change of pace thing that were challenging to defeat compared to regular mobs (Dark Souls) to being 90% of the game by Dark Souls 3/Elden Ring/Sekiro.
Sure I did. You are just choosing to ignore my detailed and excellent, dare I say, explanations.
I think it's fairly obvious that you are a moderately functional autistic.
All I hear is a lot of whining about refusing to accept a fairly obvious statement, along the lines of the sky being blue.
Could you explain what "cheating" is? Don't give examples. Explain the difference between cheating and not cheating.Please, do tell me about these cheating mechanics. Give me some examples.If you don't understand the difference between actual combat mechanics and cheating mechanics, you are beyond help, dawg. Might as well start playing Sims and transition.
Literally every single way in which most people beat Elden Ring: summoning NPCs/players to help fight bosses, using cheese strategies like bleeding enchantments on weapons, stupid weapon arts, etc.