Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Infinitron]

So? That's not the point. The point is they must play Irenicus and not, I dunno, Raistlin.

Like I said, I don't give a fuck. But Sawyer is inconsistent in his arguments if he does not either.

I agree that it's not an ideal situation, but I would argue not as critical as people are making it sound, because I don't think the traditional D&D wizard was played as a "MY FIREBALL IS BIGGER THAN YOURS, POWER OVERWHELMING" type of character. Especially considering that there was no stat for increasing spell damage in D&D anyway.

I don't remember Raistlin being like that, either - I think the strain of it would have made him faint.

 

[FeelTheRads]

He isn't. It is clear for anyone who has even touched the BETA that the classes play quite differently. "Character development" is also way more diverse than in the original IE-games, though as I've said earlier, that honestly doesn't say much.

Depends what is "quite differently". If you can switch their role in the party without too many disadvantages I'd say they don't play differently enough. Pushing different buttons is not really playing it differently. And it's not different enough either even if the fighters are the best tanks but the wizards can take their place and still be successful.

If things are not like that (even though they certainly sound like they would be, played too little because the retarded clusterfuck of the combat was worse than Arcanum) then I'd say Sawyer failed to make his system. Or at least he didn't make what he wanted.

Edit:
It's lovely how Infinitron is running circles picking up straws left and right.

 

[Grunker]

He isn't. It is clear for anyone who has even touched the BETA that the classes play quite differently. "Character development" is also way more diverse than in the original IE-games, though as I've said earlier, that honestly doesn't say much.

Depends what is "quite differently". If you can switch their role in the party without too many disadvantages I'd say they don't play differently enough. Pushing different buttons is not really playing it differently. And it's not different enough either even if the fighters are the best tanks but the wizards can take their place and still be successful.

If things are not like that (even though they certainly sound like they would be, played too little because the retarded clusterfuck of the combat was worse than Arcanum) then I'd say Sawyer failed to make his system. Or at least he didn't make what he wanted.

Edit:
It's lovely how Infinitron is running circles picking up straws left and right.

damned if he does damned if he doesn't, eh?

you're not really one to educate other people on their argumentative skills when you pull that, y'know

PoE has class difference in that the Fighter will always be the class best able to engage and just tank, but other classes can pull this duty as well, they just do it with twists. It's how a lot of P&P class-systems try to play. Most don't succeed that well. It remains to be seen whether PoE will.

 

[Lhynn]

damned if he does damned if he doesn't, eh?

you're not really one to educate other people on their argumentative skills when you pull that, y'know

PoE has class difference in that the Fighter will always be the class best able to engage and just tank, but other classes can pull this duty as well, they just do it with twists. It's how a lot of P&P class-systems try to play. Most don't succeed that well. It remains to be seen whether PoE will.

You do not define a class by its role in battle when you make the fucking class, you give the player several options fitting to the class to mix, match and define for themselves, that is how classes are made fun. Granted, 2nd ed made fighters auto attackers and 3.5 made them nearly useless, but hes had time to learn from this. I dont mind that he wants to change things for the better, but he doesnt seem to get how to do this while preaching that no one else but him does.

 

[Grunker]

If you guys could just make up your minds at least.

 

[Lhynn]

If you guys could just make up your minds at least.

We are not a hive mind, i dont agree with what a lot of detractors of his system say.

 

[Sensuki]

You do not define a class by its role in battle when you make the fucking class, you give the player several options fitting to the class to mix, match and define for themselves, that is how classes are made fun.

Ideally this is how it should work. Unfortunately (some of) PE's classes are a bit more role-restricted than this, which is a shame. Whereas a lot of them are very flexible.

 

[SCO]

So... is it totally impossible to solo PoE? More tedious than BG? Less? Impossible?

 

[Infinitron]

We won't know until somebody actually tries!

 

[Grunker]

So... is it totally impossible to solo PoE? More tedious than BG? Less? Impossible?

Less possible but (allegedly) still possible. You gain a lot of extra XP (but not all the XP), so it should be possible at least on some difficulty settings.

 

[SCO]

I thought the game had a level cap. Well, that's the first thing to go for mods obviously, just behind the Pellagina romance.
I shudder to think of the banters of that one.

 

[Grunker]

I thought the game had a level cap.

It does.

 

[Shannow]

He isn't. It is clear for anyone who has even touched the BETA that the classes play quite differently. "Character development" is also way more diverse than in the original IE-games, though as I've said earlier, that honestly doesn't say much.

Depends what is "quite differently". If you can switch their role in the party without too many disadvantages I'd say they don't play differently enough. Pushing different buttons is not really playing it differently. And it's not different enough either even if the fighters are the best tanks but the wizards can take their place and still be successful.

If things are not like that (even though they certainly sound like they would be, played too little because the retarded clusterfuck of the combat was worse than Arcanum) then I'd say Sawyer failed to make his system. Or at least he didn't make what he wanted.

Edit:
It's lovely how Infinitron is running circles picking up straws left and right.

damned if he does damned if he doesn't, eh?

you're not really one to educate other people on their argumentative skills when you pull that, y'know

I may be knitpicking here, and I can't make an informed opinion without actually playing the game and testing the classes. But if one disagrees with his design goal then
"damned if he does damned if he doesn't, eh?" (In this case meaning he manages to implement it exactly as planned or fails at implementing as planned. It does not mean he changes his goal and implements it differently.)
is a perfectly valid opinion.

I'd also like to repeat that
Fighter = Tank
is MMO rubbish. My meleers in all IE (and other D&D) games had much broader characteristics.

 

[Grunker]

is a perfectly valid opinion.

You miss the point. One of those opinions are a "I don't like this because I don't"-opinion. The other is a relevant criticism.

In other words, I can also come here to say that I don't personally like X and therefore I don't like Sawyer. Nobody should rightly give a crap. It's why I (justifiably) got unceremoniously kicked out of the LoG2 thread for lamenting the lack of turn-based gameplay. However it is relevant to critique problems with PoE's design. If the classes aren't different enough, there's no reason to have them, and that's objective criticism. However currently they are close, and as we get closer to release they'll probably get more so.

Also, the DIYDDIYD-tactics is something like saying "well, if the classes are different it's shit because they fall into stock archetypes, but not having them be different is shit because then why have classes." That's sort of what you're doing with this comment:

Fighter = Tank
is MMO rubbish

Why? Because Fighters aren't typically a defensive class in key P&P rpgs? I don't see what is preventing Sawyer from making a good game with a defensive melee class and an offensive melee class, and calling one fighter and the other barbarian. It even goes within the borders of typical fantasy thematization.

But this is pure speculation, the fighter will probably have options for dealing damage or being more controlling if one is so inclined.

 

[Infinitron]

 

[Immortal]

"The disengagement mechanic is pretty shitty"

It's the backers fault.


The Sawyer Effect is in full swing. I can see the interviews now..

 

[Sensuki]

Liston what did you have to do to change the inventory slots to 16? I've changed the InventoryMaxSize, but that didn't seem to work, do you need to update something in the UI code as well ?

Such as on InventorySecondaryRow ?

 

[Infinitron]

"The disengagement mechanic is pretty shitty"

It's the backers fault.


The Sawyer Effect is in full swing. I can see the interviews now..

 

[Immortal]

What does that prove? His first inclination is to throw someone else under the bus because there's nothing he could possibly do to make it better.

The mark of a true a designer.

 

[Sensuki]

Movement pausing recovery makes it double as bad, because chasing results in you losing X seconds of combat actions

And apparently that was added in almost purely to make it so that you couldn't kite with bows

 

[Infinitron]

What does that prove? His first inclination is to throw someone else under the bus because there's nothing he could possibly do to make it better.

The mark of a true a designer.

You're assuming that Sawyer's post is an admission on his part that that the mechanic is in fact "shitty". It's not - he's simply not bothering to argue about it because there's no point.

Movement pausing recovery makes it double as bad, because chasing results in you losing X seconds of combat actions

I like how he's completely ignoring you in that thread

 

[Duraframe300]

What does that prove? His first inclination is to throw someone else under the bus because there's nothing he could possibly do to make it better.

The mark of a true a designer.

Keep misinterpreting

Also those interviews are still imaginary.

 

[Immortal]

What does that prove? His first inclination is to throw someone else under the bus because there's nothing he could possibly do to make it better.

The mark of a true a designer.

You're assuming that Sawyer's post is an admission on his part that that the mechanic is in fact "shitty". It's not - he's simply not bothering to argue about it because there's no point.

I disagree.. His reply to that post wasn't "Your wrong completely because of this, this and this".. His reply was more like "I know many people won't like it.. but it's the best I could do.. my hands are tied by these fucking grognards"

 

[Infinitron]

I disagree.. His reply to that post wasn't "Your wrong completely because of this, this and this"..

There a better things for him to do than to try to have a debate with somebody who called his mechanic "shitty" with no explanations.

(as it turns out, because he didn't actually consider the mechanic shitty)

Ah, fuck it

Joined:
Saturday

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

It is a bit strange seeing Sawyer come up with "a bunch of backers requested it" as a first response. A "bunch of backers" want plenty of things that he's ruled out as being contrary to his vision. I would have thought his response would be more along the lines of defending an engagement mechanic on its merits, as he's done with all the other changes he's made from the IE games.