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Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

almondblight

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Or just show the
main throne room fight against the Ogres from White March….

Here you go:



Again, I show that it's PotD at the beginning and end. I show that Sagani and Aloth are wearing 0 DR clothing. When the fight begins, I hover over every single ogre, and you can see that they're all targeting my frontline (Eder). If you look at the end of the fight, you can see that Sagani and Aloth took no damage, and my tanks were the ones who took the most damage.

And this isn't to say I'm particularly good at the game. You'll probably notice that past a certain point I wasn't really sure what to do with Durance (I usually only pay attention to a fraction of the priest spells). I forgot about per rest items, the per rest abilities on my main, and didn't use any food. My character builds aren't great, and there's open slots for a lot of characters where they could probably get some buffs from items. I'm sure someone who's actually decent at the game would slice through the battle a lot more quickly (again, I've only played it once before, also on PotD, and stopped around the pit).

I'm starting to get the impression that a lot of the complaints about Pillars is coming from Codexers that don't know how to play the game.
 
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Or just show the
main throne room fight against the Ogres from White March….

Here you go:

...

Again, I show that it's PotD at the beginning and end. I show that Sagani and Aloth are wearing 0 DR clothing. When the fight begins, I hover over every single ogre, and you can see that they're all targeting my frontline (Eder).

The way engagement works, there is a limit of like 3-4 enemies that a tank can hold, if they get all the talents for it and maybe some equipment with +engage. And the PoE enemy AI literally seeks out enemies with lower defenses. So they cannot be all targeting Eder unless you are using some cheese mod.

If you look at the end of the fight, you can see that Sagani and Aloth took no damage, and my tanks were the ones who took the most damage.

And this isn't to say I'm particularly good at the game. You'll probably notice that past a certain point I wasn't really sure what to do with Durance (I usually only pay attention to a fraction of the priest spells). I forgot about per rest items, the per rest abilities on my main, and didn't use any food. My character builds aren't great, and there's open slots for a lot of characters where they could probably get some buffs from items. I'm sure someone who's actually decent at the game would slice through the battle a lot more quickly (again, I've only played it once before, also on PotD, and stopped around the pit).

I'm starting to get the impression that a lot of the complaints about Pillars is coming from Codexers that don't know how to play the game.

Just think about how stupid what you are saying is. You, who have yet to complete the game on PoTD (and are obviously not playing on Expert Mode either) are telling people who have completed the game on PotD + Expert (that only 0.9% of the playerbase did according to Steam) that they don't know how to play the game. Lol, you are a funny guy, unfortunately not in an amusing way.
 

Lacrymas

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This thread hasn't stopped going bonkers since someone said they like the ideas implemented in DA2.

Where does PotD rank among cRPGs difficulty in codex tier list? I find it impossible to believe PotD to be harder to beat than BG1/2.
BG2 vanilla is easier than BG1 vanilla first of all. BG1's difficulty relies a lot on knowing what works and what doesn't, which is often deceptive. If you start playing the characters like you'd think they should be played you'll be a sad panda. The moment you realize you have to give everyone bows and slings, you've solved more than half the game. PoE1 PotD has more mechanics to each significant fight, but you quickly become overpowered and it stops mattering what you do with a few exceptions.

RE: Tanking in PoE - I find the discussion silly because it's pointless to have tanks in the first place and they are almost worthless when you do have them. They only "work" because the AI is scripted to avoid disengagement attacks and it was scripted that way because Sensuki proved you can chain disengagement attacks by luring the mobs into your backline. If the AI took the game seriously, tanks will never work because they do pitiful damage even on disengagement. It's the same thing on tabletop, you'll be surprised how many times I've caught my players off guard by having an enemy run past the tank and eating the opportunity attack.
 

IHaveHugeNick

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Stellar logic there lad: tanks don't work unless you understand the mechanics of tanking and know how to exploit them. In other words tanks actually work excellently unless you can't play the game.
 

Lacrymas

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I never said they don't, I said they work because the AI is scripted that way as opposed to the tanks actually having any mechanics that stop mobs from getting to the backline. You can have a party with no tanks and it will be a better party. I didn't have any tanks in my ironman run of PoE1 (which I stoppled playing at one point but got quite a bit into).
 

IHaveHugeNick

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Of course dropping a core class will make for more interesting gameplay, that's kinda the point ain't it? Same reason why I prefer to run without priest and/or caster. Engagement might not have been the most elegant solution, but it worked much better than the alternative some dumbfucks were pushing for, aka, kiting like a retard and calling it gameplay.

The real issue was there should have been more NPCs using rougish abilities to dunk on the backline, even with the patched game it doesn't happen nearly enough and on launch it barely happened at all.
 
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BlackAdderBG

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Tanking in Pillars kind of works. The pathfinding is so bad that you can block the AI, the AI will block itself too and starts sliding around until mobs settle and surround you so you want your back line to not be close to the tanks to take aggro and while all that process resembling a primitive mating ritual is going on you want to nuke/CC them. Tanking is way better on lower difficulties as your tools to punish with like attacks of opportunity or re-engage abilities are vastly more powerful, mainly because they don't miss/get resisted.
 
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almondblight

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RE: Tanking in PoE - I find the discussion silly because it's pointless to have tanks in the first place and they are almost worthless when you do have them. They only "work" because the AI is scripted to avoid disengagement attacks and it was scripted that way because Sensuki proved you can chain disengagement attacks by luring the mobs into your backline. If the AI took the game seriously, tanks will never work because they do pitiful damage even on disengagement. It's the same thing on tabletop, you'll be surprised how many times I've caught my players off guard by having an enemy run past the tank and eating the opportunity attack.

There's a big misconception that enemies will only focus on your tanks if they are engaged to them, but that's not the case for a lot (most?) enemies in the game. A lot of the time they seem to favor proximity rather than anything else, and stick to one target after they've decided on it. Here's a good example from a PotD playthrough I found on Youtube, at about 27:23:



You can see that the stelgaer not only focus on the tanks right from the start of the battle, but when some of them can't reach the tanks, they circle around between the tanks and the back row and opt to still attack the tanks from behind instead of going for the back row fighters.

Here's another example where you can see it clearly, at about 45:16. An ogre ends up between the front and back rows, and is close to striking distance from the back rows, but ignores it and focuses on the tanks:



Obviously some enemies like shades have some other priorities. But a lot seem to prioritize the nearest enemy, whether or not they're engaged.
 

Lacrymas

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Eh, whether it's proximity or avoiding disengagement attacks, the result is the same and the practical application of tanks is the same. My problem with tanks in PoE (and other non-MMO RPGs) is that they are quite useless outside of holding the line while the other actually useful members of the team do something about the enemies. If the AI wasn't scripted to prefer sticking to the tanks in some way, this would never fly. I find it quite artificial and not something I adhere to during a tabletop session f.e. On top of that, I don't find tanks in PoE all that useful even if all the mobs attack them in an encounter. I much prefer having any other kind of character.
 
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Tanks/frontline work in real life for very simple reasons:

- if you are a melee type, you can't run past a frontline - in many cases they will physically block you from moving further, and you can't just walk around them since you will get sliced open doing that
- if you are a ranged type, it's hard to hit someone standing behind a frontline, since you can't see most of them

Because of this, Baldur's Gate, with it's simple rules, modeled real life combat quite well, and worked excellently, except for autistic munchkin types.

This new shit like PoE and Shitmaker gives mobs abilities to "fake" move past the frontline, whether by teleporting, moving/ccing frontline out of the way, swarming with superior numbers, magically spawning behind the backline, being able to hit with ranged weapons/spells without line of sight, etc. This is stupid artificial challenge that doesn't bring anything to the table except stupid fake combat with fake difficulty. "Oh, if I plunge a dildo in my ass, 12 inches deep, and have to balance on a unicycle while touching the back of my head with my left foot, this shit is really a challenge!"
 

Sensuki

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Since Lacrymas tagged me I ended up reading the discussion on this page. Can't speak to what the game is like now since I haven't played it since shortly after the 2015 release.

A few points:

AI Targeting
In my experience, most AI will first and foremost attack the closest enemy initially sighted. I do recall Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale: Heart of Winter having some cases of AI switching targets based on a preference. HoW AI from memory appeared to be a bit smarter than BG1/BG2 default AI. Since the games were made for slow computers and to not be too difficult (apparently BG1 was way too hard initially so they had to make the AI dumber), it takes a while for the default AI to change targets, in those games I recall often the Mage being the character that the AI preferred to target because they often had the worst AC. In Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale in particular it's not very difficult to set up the fight relatively optimally before the engagement because units don't move very fast, so if you use pause correctly and you see that Ogre Berserker going for Imoen you can just move her away, move a character with Plate Mail in front, and the Ogre Berserker will retarget the closer character. The Ogre Berserker has a large selection circle so it's very easy to block/control those types of monsters in BG and grid-based pathfinding in tile-based 2D games have a very consistent feeling to the movement and collision of units that makes it very easy to get the hang of.

I recall the initial Pillars release was programmed kind of similar except the AI would choose a new target pretty quickly. I played on Hard and I recall Aloth often being targeted no matter what because of his low defenses. It got to the point where I was playing with Aloth standing far at the back out of the initial engagement to avoid the aggro, sending other characters in first and having him come in at the end of the Alpha Strike, and even then enemies would often retarget to him, and disengage the melee characters. It often meant low health enemies would get whalloped by the engagement system but it was a bit annoying for tanky or hard to hit enemies. The way the AI worked at release meant that it was optimal to do weird stuff like heavily armor a targeted character like Aloth, and have a character like Eder in very light armor, or deliberately manipulate a character's defense so that they would be targeted which was relatively easy to do with a couple of the stats by juggling equipment.

Can't comment on what it's like now, but judging from this post, it's still the same as release.

And the PoE enemy AI literally seeks out enemies with lower defenses.

Engagement system and "Fake" move past

Baldur's Gate was a lucky accident of an RPG being made with an RTS engine, so the gameplay inherited a lot of the good things about RTS style combat and gameplay. In Baldur's Gate 1 in particular, ranged units are overpowered - due to a combination of factors including the low level D&D system design, the slowish movement speed of units, targeting and AI of characters and the level design of the game with lots of big open maps (wilderness areas in particular). I do not recall this being the case in the other Infinity Engine games, it's something specific to Baldur's Gate 1. In BG2 the higher level of characters meant that ranged weapons weren't *as* deadly and characters had more means of dealing with a ranged character and levels were smaller and more close quarters, and in Icewind Dale the level and encounter design was quite different - much more close quarters fighting a lot of the time, among other things.

Looking at BG1 specifically, ranged was very strong for a variety of reasons.
* First and foremost because of the relationship between damage and hit points. Arrows in particular dealt 1D6 damage. The Composite Long Bow which can be found from very early on adds extra damage. Characters can have less than 10 HP at Level 1 and if you play with Core Rules and get a bit unlucky with the HP rolls, can be killed after being hit by a few arrows. Enemies tend to have average HP and thus particularly vulnerable to arrows.
* Secondly because of the relationship between THAC0 and AC values - Bow users are either Warriors or Thieves, or monster equivalent, and tend to have a higher than average Dexterity and Bow Proficiency so they generally have the highest chance to land a hit than most other types of characters or monsters, particularly in the early game. The regular Long Bow and regular Composite Long Bow also improve THAC0. Enemies tend to have average-ish AC for the most part and are also fairly easy to hit with Arrows.
* Third, Bow users tend to have higher APR than melee characters. Melee characters will catch up, but a Bow user will have at least 2 APR to a Melee character's 1 or 3/2 in the early game, so they attack faster (with a higher chance to hit, and remove a good percentage of HP per shot).
* Fourth, Range advantage - Bow users will tend to fire one, if not two arrows before a melee character reaches them in combat, let alone has a chance to attack due to a combination of character movement speed and how the combat loop works - particularly in BG1 with the 'fake attacks', a melee character may have to make several fake attack animations before a real attack occurs, and when it does they don't have the best chance to hit.
* Fifth, kiting. This is the point that everyone remembers and complains about. The player character can simply run away from a melee enemy with their ranged character and reinstate the top four listed advantages. There's also the fact that enemies can lose morale and run away, and it's actually pretty annoying to chase down fleeing enemies because it's hard to even catch them to hit them. I believe the engagement system was a partial response to the player's sentiment from Baldur's Gate 1 specifically - even though the design of future games on the engine had reduced the prevalence of the issue. I also think that with consecutive titles player skill increased so there was likely less need to 'resort' to kiting to win because of better understanding and familiarity of the systems and gameplay.

The ideological battle over Attacks of Opportunity in real-time games and Pillars of Eternity's engagement system is very simple. It all stems from the perspective on how RPG combat should be represented. RPGs started with tabletop as turn-based systems. Realtime gameplay began with video games. Turn-based games have strict rules that control the sequence of events in the game and limit the amount of actions that can be made 'per turn'. Actions in turn-based RPG games are a reflection of a character skill's and the player's 'skill' is limited to the decision making that goes behind the choice of the action. Realtime gameplay opens up another avenue of player skill - the amount of decisions and actions they can perform in quick succession. Realtime with pause is simply realtime gameplay the ability to pause to have more time to think and issue commands. There is more opportunity to use 'player skill' in realtime games - the ability to think quickly and perform actions quickly and the precision with which those actions are performed. "Unit control" is a player skill, not a character skill and you can use your skill of unit control as an advantage in games that allow it. The people that like the engagement system and AoOs in realtime are the people of the belief that character actions should be a result of character skill, not player skill. I am an RTS player, before Baldur's Gate I played Warcraft 2 and Age of Empires 2 (which I still play now) and in those games, you run away and kite with ranged units, you micromanage low health units to the back to be healed and it's up to the opponent to actively stop you. The opposite school of thought to that is often held by people who prefer tabletop and turn-based games, MMORPG and RPG players - that you have to 'pay extra' to move. There seems to be overlap between the character skill and pay-to-move people. RPG designers also tend to be these people and unfortunately that and a strong overreaction to the memories of BG1 ranged kiting is how we ended up here today.
 

Lacrymas

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The difference between RTSs and RPGs in the ranged kiting department is that you have more and varied units to work with in an RTS. You don't have cavalry in an RPG to go chase down ranged characters, so there's almost 0 ways to counter them, making them baseline overpowered. Adding free movement on top trivialises most of the game. In the RPG system I'm developing for my setting, ranged characters can't shoot at enemies engaged in melee combat.
 

Sensuki

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There are lots of ways to deal with the problem that don't have to be resorting to something from a turn-based system. If it's a high-magic setting (BG2) then it's trivial - arrows aren't really that big of a deal in the first place. In something like Aarklash Legacy, the combat area is limited and attacks are generally low damage (not my favourite, but it is an example). You could have an 'aim time' mechanic for ranged characters where there is essentially a delay before the first shot.

Not to say that any of those in the best, it's just literally three off the top of my head. I personally like the possibility of a high player skill ceiling (not floor, but ceiling), but not everyone does.
 

BlackAdderBG

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Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
Since Lacrymas tagged me I ended up reading the discussion on this page. Can't speak to what the game is like now since I haven't played it since shortly after the 2015 release.

A few points:

AI Targeting
In my experience, most AI will first and foremost attack the closest enemy initially sighted. I do recall Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale: Heart of Winter having some cases of AI switching targets based on a preference. HoW AI from memory appeared to be a bit smarter than BG1/BG2 default AI. Since the games were made for slow computers and to not be too difficult (apparently BG1 was way too hard initially so they had to make the AI dumber), it takes a while for the default AI to change targets, in those games I recall often the Mage being the character that the AI preferred to target because they often had the worst AC. In Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale in particular it's not very difficult to set up the fight relatively optimally before the engagement because units don't move very fast, so if you use pause correctly and you see that Ogre Berserker going for Imoen you can just move her away, move a character with Plate Mail in front, and the Ogre Berserker will retarget the closer character. The Ogre Berserker has a large selection circle so it's very easy to block/control those types of monsters in BG and grid-based pathfinding in tile-based 2D games have a very consistent feeling to the movement and collision of units that makes it very easy to get the hang of.

I recall the initial Pillars release was programmed kind of similar except the AI would choose a new target pretty quickly. I played on Hard and I recall Aloth often being targeted no matter what because of his low defenses. It got to the point where I was playing with Aloth standing far at the back out of the initial engagement to avoid the aggro, sending other characters in first and having him come in at the end of the Alpha Strike, and even then enemies would often retarget to him, and disengage the melee characters. It often meant low health enemies would get whalloped by the engagement system but it was a bit annoying for tanky or hard to hit enemies. The way the AI worked at release meant that it was optimal to do weird stuff like heavily armor a targeted character like Aloth, and have a character like Eder in very light armor, or deliberately manipulate a character's defense so that they would be targeted which was relatively easy to do with a couple of the stats by juggling equipment.

Can't comment on what it's like now, but judging from this post, it's still the same as release.

In my experience this is true. I'm pretty sure on PotD the AI will target the party member with lowest Deflection in certain range, so if you keep your weak guys away from the mobs they will not try to disengage to re-target them. Problem is that with a lot of mobs at once they start to bump each other and slide around so they end up coming in range or some spells don't have good range and you are forced to come closer to the battle and the AI pounce on them hard.
 

Namutree

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Really no point in continuing to engage with porky directly, he saw indisputable proof of tanks effectively doing their job and came up with retarded conspiracies to pretend it wasn't a thing, then complained defending your back line is *sometimes* not 100% brainless due to enemies like spirits, because he wants the AI to play the game for him (On the hardest difficulty).
 

Namutree

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There are lots of ways to deal with the problem that don't have to be resorting to something from a turn-based system. If it's a high-magic setting (BG2) then it's trivial - arrows aren't really that big of a deal in the first place. In something like Aarklash Legacy, the combat area is limited and attacks are generally low damage (not my favourite, but it is an example). You could have an 'aim time' mechanic for ranged characters where there is essentially a delay before the first shot.

Not to say that any of those in the best, it's just literally three off the top of my head. I personally like the possibility of a high player skill ceiling (not floor, but ceiling), but not everyone does.
I'm not the biggest fan of the engagement mechanic either. I think modern PoE is actually pretty good overall thanks to a lot of the updates the game got, some of which were really cool, but that is definitely not a good mechanic. It's *kinda* decent now at best.
 
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Really no point in continuing to engage with porky directly, he saw indisputable proof of tanks effectively doing their job and came up with retarded conspiracies to pretend it wasn't a thing, then complained defending your back line is *sometimes* not 100% brainless due to enemies like spirits, because he wants the AI to play the game for him (On the hardest difficulty).

Your "proof" was a joke. Please try again.
 

Axel_am

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Pushing through Act 3 on Path of the Damned but the combat is so body dense that it's getting difficult to chew through. I've read that there is an Upscale option in White March. Does this mean even the most trivial fights in the expansion will be as pumped up as the ones in the endgame?

Haven't played White March nor enabled it.
 

cvv

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For the third time I've played through the vanilla and transitioned into the DLCs and stopped within the first hour.

That's with being committed to finally finish the fucking DLC for once.

I demand to have this explained to me. Is it possible that the vanilla is just the perfect length for reasonable people to have their fill with Sawyer's idea of an RPG?
 

Tweed

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Vanilla goes on way too long, but White March felt better, probably because it had more focus than the vanilla campaign which starts out weak and then just peters out altogether towards the end.
 

Tweed

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That's not paying attention to all the retarded shit in White March like the butch dyke barbarian with the world's most retarded side quest and Golden Mech Girl with her generic revenge story with generic revenge story end.
 

Roguey

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For the third time I've played through the vanilla and transitioned into the DLCs and stopped within the first hour.

That's with being committed to finally finish the fucking DLC for once.

I demand to have this explained to me. Is it possible that the vanilla is just the perfect length for reasonable people to have their fill with Sawyer's idea of an RPG?
If you want do the DLC, don't bother with most sidequests in the main game. When I stuck to the critical path I think I was level 7 near the endgame which is when you're supposed to go into it. It's a replacement for content, not a supplement.
 

Axel_am

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So the decline is starting to show with hints of it in White March too. This low key gets me excited to play Deadfire as I imagine there would be some sort of reset incline/decline point. Still tho, from the small hints of lore in the vanilla game I'm sharpening my fangs for White March also.

It feels like I'm hitting a point where I have to optimize my builds a bit more. That and my Cipher not really being very effective. I've been fighting tons of Famyprs and Ghouls. My druid has more or less been filling in for the missing wizard in the party. Instead of fireballs I'm throwing huge rocks and lightning scrolls at everybody. Things seem to be working out.

What can the wizard do better than the druid? Is his thing that he gets to cast more spells or what? Both the cipher and druid feel vastly superior. I can see him fitting into any party composition but not doing better than a cipher/druid. Is he in the game just to replace my cipher when she's having a bad match up?
 
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