Question about meeting other devs

[PorkyThePaladin]

I have a bunch of ideas that I believe (I am biased obviously) would make for some great indie games. The problem is I would rather not code them myself, and I have zero artistic talent. So ideally, I would love to hook up with a programmer and an artist and stick to design and whatever else needs to be done outside of programming/art. So I was wondering, are there good forums or something else online for meeting other people like that?

 

[JRIz]

What place is better than the 'dex? Do you want to do this commercially from the start, or more like Vault Dweller? If you're not focused on profit, fan forums are surely a better bet than job websites.

Even though not being a programmer or artist, you might first want to make a mock-up of your ideas in some free engine to test the feasibility of your ideas.

 

[gaussgunner]

Well, besides art and coding, maybe you could help someone with mapping or level design, sound effects, music, writing (in a very structured way), or publicity (forums, press, social media). It'll be hard to find a team that wants your ideas though. Usually they work backwards from what's feasible with their chosen game engine, art style, budget, and timeframe.

Honestly it takes years to get anywhere in game development. You have plenty of time to learn the hard skills if you have your heart set on gamedev.

 

[Viata]

If you only appeal is idea, I hope you will:
1) release the game for free and that's why you expect programmers and artists to do the hard work for free(because everyone has idea for things)
or
2) contract some programmer and artist so you can sell your game without they feel like they are working hard while you'll get the same share as them after sales

So better learn some skills.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

What place is better than the 'dex? Do you want to do this commercially from the start, or more like Vault Dweller? If you're not focused on profit, fan forums are surely a better bet than job websites.

I was thinking more along the lines of an after-work, free time project at first, just to keep things stable. Then if it goes well, you can always explore other options.

Even though not being a programmer or artist, you might first want to make a mock-up of your ideas in some free engine to test the feasibility of your ideas.

The problem is, most of my ideas are for systems-driven games with emergent content, so it's not very easy to mock that up on existing stuff.

I get your guys' point about bringing something other than ideas, but first of all, I think ideas are very important, and perhaps underrated in the current indie scene. You have all these people learning to code, produce art, etc, but there are so many bad games out there, and a lot of it, in my opinion at least, is due to them not being designed well. And secondly, it's not like design stops after you settle on some ideas. Things change over the development course, and you have to keep designing around obstacles and newly learned information and so on. So I don't think a designer is some light-weight position that just has it easy while others do the real work.

 

[Davaris]

GameDev.net used to be a big one a long time ago. Or it might be better to go to game engine forums like Unity or Unreal and post there. Offer your services to an already existing team would be your best bet.

 

[gaussgunner]

The problem is, most of my ideas are for systems-driven games with emergent content, so it's not very easy to mock that up on existing stuff.

Have you tried? You might be surprised.

I think ideas are very important, and perhaps underrated

Overrated, I'd say. Execution is the key. Cheesy ideas can work if the programming is good. A cool idea ...coupled with shitty controls, boring gameplay, unfinished stories, crashing and savefile corruption ... is just another shit game. I've seen hundreds of those.

Things change over the development course, and you have to keep designing around obstacles and newly learned information and so on. So I don't think a designer is some light-weight position that just has it easy while others do the real work.

Yeah, it shouldn't be; even fashion designers do a lot of sewing. I think you'll discover that "designing around obstacles" means programming. Successful designers probably have more experience than the rest of their team, they just don't have to be up on all the latest software fashions.

 

[Keldryn]

I have a bunch of ideas that I believe (I am biased obviously) would make for some great indie games. The problem is I would rather not code them myself, and I have zero artistic talent. So ideally, I would love to hook up with a programmer and an artist and stick to design and whatever else needs to be done outside of programming/art. So I was wondering, are there good forums or something else online for meeting other people like that?

The thing is that everybody working on indie gaming projects have their own ideas that they want to work on. There are no programmers sitting around thinking "hmm, I'd love to work on a computer game, but I really need somebody else to come along with an idea of what to make."

I get your guys' point about bringing something other than ideas, but first of all, I think ideas are very important, and perhaps underrated in the current indie scene. You have all these people learning to code, produce art, etc, but there are so many bad games out there, and a lot of it, in my opinion at least, is due to them not being designed well. And secondly, it's not like design stops after you settle on some ideas. Things change over the development course, and you have to keep designing around obstacles and newly learned information and so on. So I don't think a designer is some light-weight position that just has it easy while others do the real work.

Of course ideas are very important, but they are absolutely not underrated. When it comes to making games, ideas truly are a dime a dozen. There is no shortage of good ideas -- it all comes down to execution.

Successful game designers also need to do some programming themselves, especially on a small indie team. Some studios have "writers" and "world builders" but actual game designers need to be able to implement their ideas and not just tell a programmer how it should work. Programmers build the game engines, and game designers script the gameplay.

What you're describing sounds more the the role of a producer on an AAA title, and that is a role that no indie team needs to have filled.

The problem is, most of my ideas are for systems-driven games with emergent content, so it's not very easy to mock that up on existing stuff.

Then start with smaller ideas. It doesn't matter what forum you post on, nobody is going to be interested in what you are proposing.

Also, you might be surprised by what you can do with the right tools. There are several good visual scripting tools available for the Unity engine:

Playmaker is the most popular and best-supported. It integrates with virtually every other major Unity add-on, and it works particularly well with Behavior Designer for creating AI systems.

Makinom is a new visual scripting system created by the guy who does the ORK RPG Framework.

plyGame is another visual scripting system that also contains an RPG module.

uScript is the most expensive of the bunch and I have no experience with it, but it is very well-regarded.

Adventure Creator is focused on 2D and 3D adventure games, but it can be used to build games of any genre.

So my advice is to get the free Unity Personal Edition and one of the above visual scripting tools and start prototyping some of your ideas on your own. Once you have something that looks like an actual game, then you will have more luck finding people to work with you.

 

[J1M]

Instead of asking how you can find a team that is willing to accept someone with no talents and is also a team capable of finishing a project, you should be asking yourself which areas of game creation you are willing to learn. It sounds like you want to build some sort of open world game, which would imply that the project needs lots of in-game levels. Perhaps that is something that you could learn to do.

Moreover, you don't want to join a team with nothing to offer but ideas because when there are debates about game direction or which features to cut you will always be negotiating from a position of weakness. The only reason this situation can occur in the corporate world is because the corporate entity is allowing producers and designers to borrow its authority by paying programmers and artists money.

 

[Zed]

Ideas and concepts are the least important part of game development.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Ideas and concepts are the least important part of game development.

Indeed, and that's probably why it's in such a glorious state.

The thing is that everybody working on indie gaming projects have their own ideas that they want to work on. There are no programmers sitting around thinking "hmm, I'd love to work on a computer game, but I really need somebody else to come along with an idea of what to make."

Are you sure? Because I remember reading some programmer saying exactly that on some forum a few years back. Programming, art and design are very different disciplines, so I don't see why people can't specialize within them. There might be some talented programmers out there who might love video games and want to work on them (even if only to learn enough to get a job in the industry later), but might not necessarily have good ideas for a new game.

Also, just to clarify, any game, whatever its structure, needs some kind of content. Whether it's writing, adding NPCs, creating crafting recipes, designing levels/maps or whatever, I would certainly do my part with that, I just don't want to do programming and art, which is why in the OP, i said: "and whatever else needs to be done outside of programming/art".

 

[Zed]

Ideas and concepts are the least important part of game development.

Indeed, and that's probably why it's in such a glorious state.

Agreed, but I meant in terms of getting a game made.

 

[Viata]

The thing is, when you comes up with just idea to show, people will think: "Man, just another guy who wants to ride on game development without nothing to offer but ideas". Pretty much an idea guy.

You gotta show something that goes beyond an idea and a piece of paper full of words. If you can show a prototype of your game, be it just a basic game on Unity/Unreal or even 2D, you'll attract people who wants to make a game with you. They'll think you can do shit and are looking for people who wants to make a game, not people to create your ideas. Also, even with basic knowledge of programming, it can be usefull, as long as you understand programming, you can come up with ideas that are viable. There's no need to become John Carmack, but knowledge in programming can't hurt you.

 

[Jack]

I have a bunch of ideas that I believe (I am biased obviously) would make for some great indie games. The problem is I would rather not code them myself, and I have zero artistic talent.

Behead all idea guys. Just make something in GameMaker or RPG Maker if you're a shit programmer who is also bad at art, or if that doesn't seems like something for you then you could always do some modding or just mapping for existing games. Like make a TDM map or something and I'll play it. Or if that is not enough to satisfy your creative urges then how about you actually take up programming and start learning, you big baby? You're like a guy who wants to make an indie movie but you don't want to act in it, do any of that complicated technical camera and sound stuff or write a script. You can't just walk up to a film crew and tell them to make your brilliant idea for a film "King Kong with TITS" and expect them do all the work for you, that only works if you've got the funding.

 

[flabbyjack]

I bet all your ideas would be impossible to code.

Don't give up your dreams!

 

[Keldryn]

Are you sure? Because I remember reading some programmer saying exactly that on some forum a few years back.

I was of course speaking in general terms and I did not mean that not a single programmer has ever said such a thing. As a general rule, people who want to make a game and know how to program aren't just sitting around waiting to work on someone else's idea. I've never met anyone working on a game who didn't have their own ideas that they will work on "one day."

Programming, art and design are very different disciplines, so I don't see why people can't specialize within them. There might be some talented programmers out there who might love video games and want to work on them (even if only to learn enough to get a job in the industry later), but might not necessarily have good ideas for a new game.

Specialization is for insects and large development teams. Indie teams generally don't have the luxury of having specialized members and typically the team members have to wear multiple hats.

And game design by its nature is a very broad subject which spans across multiple disciplines. An effective game designer must be well-rounded with some degree of skill in either or both of the technical and artistic side of things.

There is a term for specialists in "game design" with no technical or artistic skills: Dead Weight. Especially on a small indie team.

Also, just to clarify, any game, whatever its structure, needs some kind of content. Whether it's writing, adding NPCs, creating crafting recipes, designing levels/maps or whatever, I would certainly do my part with that, I just don't want to do programming and art, which is why in the OP, i said: "and whatever else needs to be done outside of programming/art".

Skilled artists and programmers are in short supply. There seem to be an infinite number of game designers who have ideas and are willing to do exactly those things you listed. You need to bring more to the table than the thousands of other guys offering the same thing. At the very least you need to be able to script the gameplay for the areas you design.

And if you've never participated in making a game before, then you should help out on another project or work on a mod for another game before you attempt to put together a team of your own. Either that, download Unity and buy one of the visual scripting tools. You don't need to program a rendering engine and you don't need to be able to create production-quality artwork, but you need to be able to prototype your ideas on your own.

 

[Destroid]

PorkyThePaladin you are what we in the biz call an ideaguy, the lowest form of indie, incapable of producing anything. Simply put you contribute nothing of value and no one cares about your ideas until you acquire some ability to do something useful. This usefulness need not be directly production related, perhaps you are really good at getting media coverage or money or something. You gotta have something to offer.

Would you trust someone who cant even work on their own ideas to finish someone else's ideas? For free?

 

[Talby]

Implementation > Ideas. If you're serious about making games then you're gonna have to work on developing some skills to turn those ideas into something tangible. Either that, or be rich enough to employ people to do the work for you.

 

[gaussgunner]

Bottom line, PorkyThePaladin: you can find indie developers who will let you help a little, without pay, within the framework of THEIR ideas. You might even find a complete noob programmer who's willing to work on your idea... good luck with that. If your gameplay ideas are of utmost importance to you, best learn to program. (You can always hire artists)

 

[ProphetSword]

Why don't you tell us what these ideas are? Then, those of us with programming experience will know if we would waste our time on them.

 

[Viata]

Why don't you tell us what these ideas are? Then, those of us with programming experience will know if we would waste our time on them.

He's probably going to say "I'm not going to tell my ideas because someone may stole them".

 

[Galdred]

That is not true. You can still contribute even with no artistic talent and no programming skills. But you'd better be a top writer or someone very good at talking other into investing in your project. Preferably both. That and the level design.
In the iOS game out there (mostly a COYA heavy adventure game), the team was one game designer/writer/PR guy and one developer/artist.
But assembling a team with nothing to show will be hard (unless you are very good at talking people into helping you).
That said, no programming talent + no artistic talent would make it much easier for you to start with a board game. Even for prototyping, a board game would probably work better than using an engine that was not designed with whatever you want in mind.

A typical indie game breakdown could be :
Programming : 25-50%
Art : 20-50 %
Music : 5-10%
Design (game design + level design) : 10-30 %
other (getting people to fund/kickstart your game, assembling a team, marketing and PR, paperwork, accounting) : 15-25%
This is a ballpark estimate based on my previous research on fair team equity. Of course it can be different from these figures : if your project is an interactive fiction, art would go down to almost 0, and Design will be much higher.

Note that game design is not just ideas. It is also their translation in accurate game terms, some iterative testing to be sure you get the values and rules right, and may include writing.

 

[Cthulhu_is_love]

Maybe Dorian Black wants to help you:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/help-with-gameplay-mechanics.103836/

 

[Duckard]

In an indie team, everyone has to take on multiple roles. Even in a big company, game designers are generalists by nature because their job involves having knowledge of every discipline to some extent. That means you need to know some kind of programming or art or music in order to contribute. You don't have to be amazing, but if you can do stuff like scripting, basic box modeling, and level design in addition to your ideas, you'll probably be of more use on an indie team. Not all of these tasks are as hard as the in-depth stuff, but they all take time, and if you can do them, your programmer/artist can work on other stuff. Updating the design document isn't going to take up all your time on a small project.

Are your ideas really so good that someone will do the hard work of implementing them for free while you sit back and do nothing? If they are (they're not), are you able to present them so well that this will come through?

 

[Viata]

the team was one game designer/writer/PR guy and one developer/artist.

If you ask them, you'll learn 9 out of 10 (if not 10 out of 10) indie devs where 1 guy just do the designer/writer or is just the idea guy, the team was already made of friends way before they start making a game, so there's no problem. When someone you never meet wants to just do writer/designer, it's hard to accept it, no one wants to do the hard work for some random guy. Now, if your best friend comes up with the same deal, the probability of you accepting it is higher.