Question about meeting other devs

[Keldryn]

First of all, there is confusion about what "ideas" mean. I don't mean it in a way that you come up with some high level idea, like "oh, let's make a game about A with mechanic B". I mean it as actual design, where you come up with detailed gameplay mechanics, which is actually a lot of VERY important work that is, in my opinion, not given enough attention in modern games, whether AAA or indie.

Of course it is very important work. Nobody here said that it wasn't. We're also not confused about what "ideas" mean. If you haven't produced something playble then guess what? You're an "ideas guy."

I think everyone trying to be a programmer and/or artist is a terrible idea myself, because it is extremely inefficient.

EVERY game designer can only benefit from acquiring some programming and artistic skills (preferably both). While you don't need to be able to create production-ready models and textures, it takes some degree of artistic ability to build good-looking environments from the modular pieces created by the artists. Likewise, you don't need to be able to write low-level rendering code and pathfinding algorithms, but being able to script the higher-level behavior in your scenes/levels/etc is a huge benefit (initializing, spawning creatures/enemies, getting ambient behaviors set up, determining when an enemy will notice the player, etc).

I should spend years making some shitty mods, then spend more time learning game programming even though that doesn't interest me in the slightest just so I can be a shitty 2nd rate game programmer just so I can finally get to design interesting games?

I certainly never said that.

No, don't learn "game programming" unless you want to be a programmer. I still suggest joining an existing mod or game team doing some level design work before you try to tackle sometime as ambitious as designing an entire game. This is mainly to give you a small taste of what making a game is actually like.

If you don't want to go that route (which I know you don't), you will have far greater chances of success if you can prototype your core gameplay ideas on your own, rather than looking for someone else to do it for you. You said you don't want to program and that's why I suggested looking at visual scripting tools like Playmaker (for Unity). Playmaker is perhaps not objectively the best visual scripting tool for Unity, but it is easily the most popular and thus has the largest support community around it, which is invaluable. Virtually all of the top-tier Unity packages feature integration with Playmaker, which essentially means that you can use Playmaker to integrate all of those systems: Dialogue System for Unity, Inventory Pro, Behavior Designer, and dozens more. In general, almost everything in the Unity API or a package's API is exposed through Playmaker actions, so there is very little that you can't do in Playmaker that you could do via scripting. It won't always be the optimal or most efficient way, of course.

And it is especially important to be able to prototype your own ideas if you want to work with experienced developers. The only people who get excited talking about potential gameplay ideas with someone who has never made a game are ... other people who have never worked on a game. And trust me, you want to work with people who have at least a bit of experience, if only because they've already had their game development dreams crushed by reality and now have much more realistic expectations.

Or every good game programmer should try to make his own game, even though most of their ideas are terrible, as evidenced by the current glut of these horrible indie games that god knows who buys and plays?

This is your inexperience talking.

Virtually no ideas survive implementation intact. In many cases, it isn't that the idea was terrible, it's that the developer did not spend sufficient time iterating on the design and gathering feedback. Great ideas are screwed up by poor execution all of the time. Of course some ideas are actually terrible, but you can't know for certain until you try to implement it. People come up with ideas that seem brilliant but are ultimately revealed to be unworkable all of the time, too.

So you have some "great" ideas while good game programmers mostly have "terrible" ideas, despite the fact that your ideas have never even been put through the process of implementation and theirs have. You might want to take that arrogance down a few notches if you want other developers to take you seriously.

How about people instead stick to what they are actually good? Yes, yes I know, how would they know if I am any good at design since I don't have anything on my resume, but that's the point of meeting up with like-minded people and talking about games and ideas. If these sound like shit, they are free to walk away.

TL:DR; Stop talking about games and ideas and start making something. Nobody with any experience wants to work with an inexperienced but enthusiastic "designer" brimming with ambitious ideas. Sorry to burst your bubble. Don't look for like-minded people to talk to game ideas about, look for a set of tools that you can use to actually build something with your ideas.

 

[JamesDixon]

I'm going to say that the people here are not downing you personally. They want you to make the game of your dreams. They also want you to realize that it's hard work. Okay, you can't program and you can't do art. Can you write up the setting history, the rules system for the programmer to go by, and the quests? Have you decided upon an engine to use for your game? Have you worked with the tools that come with the engine?

I ask these questions because when I first came here I was excited about making an updated version of the old Gold Box games by SSI. However, with the help of all the people that commented on my project helped me to decide that the project I wanted to do was too ambitious to do as a first project. I took the time to figure out the genre, setting, and type of game I wanted to create. The new game is more focused and less ambitious. It's also a lot more interesting then the original game. While working on the original project, I worked on the rules system with ProphetSword, Keldryn, and JarlFrank. We may have parted ways on that project, but I still talk to them and get feedback. However, during that time I busted my butt to learn how to make maps and dungeons etc... in Unity3D using the tools I have available. I contributed more than just the rules and ideas because I also was the map maker and I thought I did really good job at that. I have trouble learning languages and art is definitely not for me, so I did the part that is equally as important as programming and art assets which is making the world plus the individual maps.

My advice is to listen to the advice you've gotten and figure out what exactly you want to do while doing something other than being the ideas guy.

 

[Viata]

Going by how codex is famous for hating everything, this guy got a lot of good advice here. If anything you can just quote some posts here and show to any person who comes here as an idea guy looking for programmers to do his job.

 

[DosBuster]

In terms of being a designer, well, my definition of what a designer does requires you to know a basic idea of almost every element of game development. Effectively, you have to communicate the system in three major ways:

1. You need to break down all the logic and processing, often using a flowchart or UML document so that the programmer can just look at it and build it quickly. (Which is key since iteration is the most important factor of game design.)

2. Often you need to state and prioritise what assets are required and where they are used. This crosses every element of Art (Animation, Audio and Concept) meaning you need to understand the workflow and the technical knowledge behind what an artist does.

3. A producer has to figure out if this feature fits in with the schedule and the budget, meaning you need to effectively list what has to be implemented and what can be thrown away. (Usually this is done with an A/B/C priority system - with C rarely getting touched on.)

However, if you're a level designer then you'd be building out the levels, hooking up the level and being responsible for any bugs in the level. There are other design professions out there, most of which require scripting know-how, but it really depends on the studio.

 

[Nell]

It wouldn't hurt too much to learn coding and art. We all have at least 50 years in our life, and you can learn both of them in less than 5.

If you feel that you can't learn them on your own, you just need a mentor instead. Try looking at how others do them.

 

[Leshy]

Being a designer is more than sitting with a pen and paper and figuring out mechanics. It has a lot to do about knowing how games are made. Rarely anyone starts in the industry as the design guy. Precisely because you need to learn about the whole process.

Learn some programming. If you are serious, you'll need it.
Learn about making art. If you are serious, you'll need it.

And if you are really serious, build something. RPGMaker, Unity, whatever. Put your ideas to test and design into some sort of proof of concept. You'll see how much more you need to design and think about than you have considered so far.

Sorry, but I always will have a higher regard for the guy who made a shitty indie game and shipped it, than a guy who had ideas, but didn't have enough drive to build anything.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

I know you guys mean well, but there is a bit too much crowd-thinking here. First of all, there is confusion about what "ideas" mean. I don't mean it in a way that you come up with some high level idea, like "oh, let's make a game about A with mechanic B". I mean it as actual design, where you come up with detailed gameplay mechanics, which is actually a lot of VERY important work that is, in my opinion, not given enough attention in modern games, whether AAA or indie.

Also, I am not thinking of this as some kind of formal BS, I was thinking more in terms of hooking up with likeminded gamers, bouncing ideas off walls, and if and only if they are interested, trying to create something together. In that context, doing design plus things like writing, level design and whatever else would actually be quite a lot of work, and not some freeloader trying to get by using others' work.

When people start thinking in the same way as everyone else, that's stagnation and the opposite of thinking. I think everyone trying to be a programmer and/or artist is a terrible idea myself, because it is extremely inefficient. I should spend years making some shitty mods, then spend more time learning game programming even though that doesn't interest me in the slightest just so I can be a shitty 2nd rate game programmer just so I can finally get to design interesting games? Or every good game programmer should try to make his own game, even though most of their ideas are terrible, as evidenced by the current glut of these horrible indie games that god knows who buys and plays? How about people instead stick to what they are actually good? Yes, yes I know, how would they know if I am any good at design since I don't have anything on my resume, but that's the point of meeting up with like-minded people and talking about games and ideas. If these sound like shit, they are free to walk away.

I think the problem is game design flirts too much with programming to separate them. The end result is good designers almost always can program too. Otherwise, the designer is giving the programmer some very blurry instructions.

I'm not trying to discourage. You should pick up Python and try to make a simple text game. I think you'll find it's much harder than you thought it would be. And you'll how translating an idea to code is demanding.

For a while I toyed with Byond. I considered GameMaker. Gamemaker is nice because the base game is already constructed for you. Thing like the game loop, event system and animations. You're more like a scripter. Byon is interesting because you can make it multiplayer and all of the serve resources are already there. You just pay a small fee for membership.

Here:
http://www.byond.com/developer/

In general I think game making demands much more intelligence and talent and versatility than commonly believed. Unfortunatley, this means a lot of us go into it dismissing its difficulty. It's a painful but good lesson.

If you do try to make a game, make it simple. You don't want lots of unfinished games in your memories. If you're in college and there's a game making course, take it. It'll force you to make it simple--so you finish it!