Roguey vs the Grognards Thread

[Ninjerk]

This looks to me more like to much special effects. Something i feared when i saw first bless like spell.

They look too close together as well.

 

[Athelas]

They're simply following in the footsteps of giants:

 

[Roguey]

Skyrim is Josh-approved? Please provide sources when you make such claims.
Skyrim is a weak game coated in very pretty art work.

http://steamcommunity.com/id/baby_goat/games/?tab=all
http://new.spring.me/#!/JESawyer/q/260654042043129867
http://new.spring.me/#!/JESawyer/q/262298374328295506

So far I don't disagree. When it comes to gameplay, I was expecting something close to fantasy New Vegas and got something much less enjoyable. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This looks to me more like to much special effects. Something i feared when i saw first bless like spell.

I told them to avoid NWN2-shit. Still going to blame this on the art department and not Josh.

 

[Perkel]

Yeah nwn2 was full of overdone special effects.

Some spells were nice but some pther created this dragon ball fights

 

[SuicideBunny]

there is more than one type of beer hater. i'd totally drink it if it only tasted like dirty water.

You are a beer hater? That explains everything.

yup. i pretty much only drink whisky.

 

[Onholyservicebound]

http://steamcommunity.com/id/baby_goat/games/?tab=all
http://new.spring.me/#!/JESawyer/q/260654042043129867
http://new.spring.me/#!/JESawyer/q/262298374328295506

So far I don't disagree. When it comes to gameplay, I was expecting something close to fantasy New Vegas and got something much less enjoyable. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Doesn't make it a good game, let alone an RPG. I have a lot of hours in that game, it's a time waster, like an mmo. It's really easy to jump into, but doesn't leave a lasting impression.(Isn't very replayable, and doesn't have a definite end) Also he's right in the Oblivion comparison, but you could also take that as an insult for what is a truly awful game.

there is more than one type of beer hater. i'd totally drink it if it only tasted like dirty water.

You are a beer hater? That explains everything.

yup. i pretty much only drink whisky.

Beer is for teens who can't handle their liquor.

 

[IDtenT]

I love seeing Butthurt Obsidian fans.

 

[HiddenX]

Me too

 

[Sensuki]

I told them to avoid NWN2-shit. Still going to blame this on the art department and not Josh.

Josh has stated in multiple interviews (including mine) that he wants flashier spell fx

 

[Infinitron]

I told them to avoid NWN2-shit. Still going to blame this on the art department and not Josh.

Josh has stated in multiple interviews (including mine) that he wants flashier spell fx

Ahem. These are his words:

The Spell FX direction in the IE games were very RTS-inspired. Effects were opaque, easily distinguishable from one another, fairly contained in size and clear visual feedback was given when a unit was affected by a spell (on the unit and UI). In contrast the FX shown for PE have been a little in the opposite direction edging towards modern flashiness, brightness and style. What is the intended art style for the FX in PE moving forward?

I don't think it's accurate to say that the IE games' VFX were opaque because they were RTS-inspired. They were opaque because the early games simply didn't have any alpha blending capability (just alpha test). With 3D particles and alpha blending, I think it's inevitable that there's going to be as much of a visual shift from the older games as you see with our 3D characters. That said, the early footage we've shown of the game was often missing hit effects. Those will go a long way in helping the player see exactly when a character has been affected.

 

[Sensuki]

That's from my interview - he has said he likes them in VIDEO interviews

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Me too

Someone Cross-post it in OBsidian Forums and/or Something Awful

 

[CyberP]

So far I don't disagree. When it comes to gameplay, I was expecting something close to fantasy New Vegas and got something much less enjoyable. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Indeed. With that recorded playtime it means he is serious also, not just being modest (or lying if you prefer).
What the hell Sawyer? Play good games bro.

As wide as an ocean, as deep as a puddle is the perfect descriptor. I got bored in half his play time, and I was trying to like it.

 

[HiddenX]

Infinitron fights on the wrong side. Grognards to arms.

 

[RandomAccount]

And WTF does Grognard even mean?

DnD hardcore fanboi

for JESawyer (and his fangays), basically everyone who thinks that some aspects of gameplay were much better in bg2 than they are in poe = grognard

And herein lies the 'problem' for every RPG developer.

I have a very abstract mind (Melon juice, for example) and I can very easily bring into my mind the framework for a wonderfully original, complex, engaging and yet simple and traditional D&D style RPG. It wouldn't take me very long at all to storyboard something both unique but completely familiar. I'm empathic, in that I can consume vast quantities of a cliche and regurgitate a completely new twist to the formula.

However, the devil is then in the detail.

How will the actual mechanics perform in the game?

The best way to solve the mechanic is to simply use an already tried and tested existing and popular mechanic as the means to best communicate your adventure to the player. You can have the best game ever convinced, but if the player spends most of the game not knowing how to interact with their choices, or finding that a new system is so cumbersome to learn that it completely distracts from the first discovery play-through, or being met by a n00b system which hasn't been fully balanced (time/budget restrictions) and results in either boring or impossible combat roadblocks, then your game might as well be shovelware.

The ideal scenario would be to use the (old) D&D ruleset as a base from which to take the relateable and replace the unrelateable. To basically invent your own game-personal D&D 3.75 (or AAD&D or whatever).

But then you have copywrite issues and the ignoble fact that you're not providing the consumer with a 'real' product (in that you couldn't advertise it as a D&D based game, as this would also disappoint people who were expecting 'pure' D&D).

It would be great if the market was awash with D&D-like base systems with which to play with, but there aren't any with quite the same level of player reknown. To use a lesser known system would be akin to just making up your own on the spot, so to speak.

What Sawyer and his team are doing is making one up on the spot.

That's the tough bit.

No matter what else the game offers, no matter the level of good intentions, no matter the pre-game hype or hate, the game will finally be judged on the quality of the base mechanics the game comes up with.

And I don't see how anyone can make any true judgements about this until it's fully released, tested and patched.

I have no idea why this game is being dribbled over so much just - in the way that is on this site - because, even with BETA testing and demo-like experiences, a new system can only be judged from its whole as a complete product. It's not like Dragon Age, where we know pretty much most of it before it happens based on previous experiences with their base game mechanics and were just waiting to see if 'general changes' are either better or worse.

I know it doesn't make for great forum fun, but for such as this game I can see no other option than simply 'sitting on the fence'.

 

[Sranchammer]

This grognard has no beef with Roguey

 

[HiddenX]

RandomAccount

PoE gets so much flak, because Obsidian promised an IE game and they don't make one (except for the gfx).

Balanced influence of stats for all classes is a major design goal.
"No character can fail" - policy is a design goal, too.
No trash options is a design goal, too.
No hard counters is a design goal, too.

All of these goals will not change.
Some people don't like this at all and critisice it.

 

[DefJam101]

No, Roguey. You are the grognards

 

[RandomAccount]

You make some good points HiddenX, but even still, even if they fuck-up some stuff, if it still 'works' and 'produces' then we can forgive some indiscretions, surely?

Yes, we know that we wanted a D&D IE (Dungeons and Dragons Infinity Engine) game, but we also know they're not allowed to actually use D&D, so we know it's gonna be different. Highlighting the differences as they are made known is one thing, openly criticising them is another, but an unholy crusade against the whole game based upon them is another ball-park altogether. I'm waiting for the finished product before I get my horse out, that's all I'm saying.

 

[TheGreatOne]

Doesn't make it a good game, let alone an RPG.

Josh Sawyer has stated that a)his idea of a good game is different than that of "grognards" and b)he does not care about catering to grognards (classic CRPG fans) when designing games, because their idea of "fun" clearly isn't something that most modern gamers agree on. In other words it's unprofitable to not cater to casuals, and doing the opposite would be an unwise design choice since grognards are a vocal minority not representative of his core audience.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Doesn't make it a good game, let alone an RPG.

Josh Sawyer has stated that a)his idea of a good game is different than that of "grognards" and b)he does not care about catering to grognards (classic CRPG fans) when designing games, because their idea of "fun" clearly isn't something that most modern gamers agree on. In other words it's unprofitable to not cater to casuals, and doing the opposite would be an unwise design choice since grognards are a vocal minority not representative of his core audience.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

Forget having memories of holy shit my ninja got charmed and wiped out my own party with critical hits in wizardry 7, or omg kensai>mage is assraping everyone in bg2 and what not.

P:E is the next steep slippery slope in the path of decline:
where everything is banal +x% increase,
where petrification is dumbed down to temporary paralysis,
where a wizard's dps is balanced in comparison to a fighter,
where gfx effects, instead of being solid classic clearly visible opaque colors are changed to a GFX clusterfuck cause alpha blending is pretty!!

Grognards, wear your label with Pride!!
and Fight the Good Fight!!

 

[Infinitron]

tacticians (who liked easy character creation and hard combat)

Sounds to me like PoE is catering to these guys, actually.

 

[Roguey]

Doesn't make it a good game, let alone an RPG. I have a lot of hours in that game, it's a time waster, like an mmo. It's really easy to jump into, but doesn't leave a lasting impression.(Isn't very replayable, and doesn't have a definite end) Also he's right in the Oblivion comparison, but you could also take that as an insult for what is a truly awful game.

There has to be something more here to explain why it sold so many more millions over Oblivion, Fallout 3, and New Vegas, and I'm going to try to find it.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

I'm sorry... is anyone actually shocked that Obsidian did not deliver on their promises, and if they are, where have they been the past ten years?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Doesn't make it a good game, let alone an RPG. I have a lot of hours in that game, it's a time waster, like an mmo. It's really easy to jump into, but doesn't leave a lasting impression.(Isn't very replayable, and doesn't have a definite end) Also he's right in the Oblivion comparison, but you could also take that as an insult for what is a truly awful game.

There has to be something more here to explain why it sold so many more millions over Oblivion, Fallout 3, and New Vegas, and I'm going to try to find it.

Lover's lab.
You're welcome.