RPGs with robust resource management

[:Flash:]

Spoiler

...
Wait a minute. 34485 - 50 isn't 34428 either.


Maybe the whole party lost 50 * 4 (4 chars in my party) and then it gets distributed according to some weird number magic.

Also that whole affair reminds me that I seem to have forgotten something important...
Can't quite put the finger on what though.

Huh, that is strange. I never played the English version, but I was remembered Guido Henkel saying in one of those interviews that this was a change introduced by Sir-Tech to make it less punishing and that therefore they decided to do away with it altogether in 2 and 3. I Must be misremembering, then, though I have no idea where I got that idea from.

 

[Doktor Best]

Age of Decadence was one of the few games where i deliberately was an asshole just so i could get more money out of quests. I salute the game for that.

What does that involve? "Gimme more money or I'll beat it out of you", or something like extortion that results in more than just chump change?

In most RPGs I've played this doesn't impact the PC's resources all that profoundly, but maybe in AoD it does.

You can accept bribery from an asshole for example which has a major effect on the storyline. Or a bandit camp offers you a split of the loot if you help them kill off some innocent villagers (and killing off the bandits is really hard for any character not solely combat oriented), or you can screw people over the deal youve struck with them, (though that gets you a dishonest reputation) change sides and backstab your superiors, etc.

 

[Lilura]

Trying to think of other RPGs where morals/ethics significantly impacts resources... other than just running around, butchering and robbing ppl or donating to a temple, that is. Those are just game-play actions that are rarely of consequence.

Off-hand, I guess Arcanum might be a solid example. Mask of the Betrayer. Meh, that's about all that is coming to mind...

 

[V_K]

Don't forget blind reagent sellers in Ultima.

 

[Jack Of Owls]

I'm looking forward to playing the NWN Swordflight series modules because I hear Lilura raving about their excellent resource management. Speaking of NWN nights modules, I can't remember any others with good resource management but I can tell you about the two Eye of the Beholder modules by Rick Francis & team which are the polar opposite, complete antithesis of good resource management. When you find, like, 50 Potions of Heal by the end area going in to confront the final boss, or you can respawn upon death and pick up exactly where you got offed and lose just a few gold and exp points, it's just not very fun, though the Eye of the Beholder modules for NWN are extremely well-done and polished otherwise.

 

[NotAGolfer]

Also that whole affair reminds me that I seem to have forgotten something important...
Can't quite put the finger on what though.

Does the XP penalty scale with lvl?

Dunno but I guess not. 57 isn't that far off compared to the claimed 50. Who knows.
The quote didn't refer to that though.
There's an abandoned RoA Let's Play lurking somewhere.
But what can I say, it's summertime, and the living is easy.

:Flash:
Might as well be him. Wouldn't be the first bullshit coming from Guido's constantly bragging mouth. ^^

 

[Perkel]

Yeah AoD economy is fucking intense. You have to work your ass off to actually have spending money. Loved that.

 

[Lilura]

Does AoD have a hardcore/Ironman mode? (i.e, one that bans Power Word: Reload and save-scumming?)

 

[J1M]

Unless a game regularly resets consumables, it can only balanced for at most a small slice of its players. It's nice that Swordflight was balanced for you, but not everyone is going to have the same experience, especially in a game where you can build your own character.

This reeks of how reddit users make these subjectivity-trumps-all non-arguments disguised as arguments. This can be said about every other aspect of a game, mechanics-wise or even writing, visuals, etc.

How is balance in game's mechanics, which the use of resources, unattainable on a larger scale?

You speak of this reddit TV show as if it is relevant. It is also possible to measure quality objectively in many areas. I'm not sure why you went on that tangent.

Just because I stated an uncomfortable truth, does not mean that I am endorsing it. In fact, the words you quoted list one potential remedy: reset consumables at certain intervals. This doesn't have to take the form of a character being knocked out an robbed. Equally clunky, but distinct, options for achieving the same thing include requiring the player to trade consumables for access to the next area or ratcheting up numbers to the point where one would only use a super healing potion because the horded standard healing potions are no longer effective.

Other solutions include things like restrictions on how many items a character can carry. For example, in Zelda you can have up to 4 potions based on how many bottles you've located.

Another option is mandating the consistent use of consumables to continue playing. The most common version of this is a food/hunger mechanic. There's nothing stopping a game from deciding that once you have outgrown the resource drain simple food requires it can't send you to a location that requires consistent application of expensive mystical sunscreen, etc.

Personally, I think limited carrying capacity would probably create the most interesting gameplay. In particular, if those consumables were competing for inventory spots with weapons that would grant orthogonal combat effectiveness. ie. Do you want to take an extra set of healing potions or a ranged weapon? Do you want to take an extra set of stamina potions or a wooden club in case you encounter a rust monster? etc.

 

[Lhynn]

Yeah, after so much talk it came down to Lhynn admitting he mostly ignored the OP premise.

Our argument wasnt even about the OPs premise in the first place. It was about BG2 and what it was and why it would have been a worse game if Lilura had her way with it. Oh, and also how specific changes in some areas would make no sense, as BG2 works as a whole, individual elements vary in quality.

 

[baturinsky]

Lords of Xulima has some scarce resources, maybe TW1 has some at the start, Expeditions: Conquistador do that till about the midgame, Darkest Dungeon and that's all I can recall right now. Anyway, I don't remember the last game where it wasn't really easily breakable, you usually just outlevel your need to use consumables.

+1 for dark dungeons. Limited inventory, several types of supplies with several uses each, and several ways of acquiring resources mid-dungeon make you agonizing each time you prepare for an expedition or have to throw something away to make space.

 

[Lilura]

It was about BG2 and what it was and why it would have been a worse game if Lilura had her way with it.

Not really. It would have been different, for sure. And better, imo. In the end the Infinity Engine just isn't up to it, though. Perhaps even Aurora isn't up to what I have in mind but, short of coding one's own engine from scratch, it may be as good as it gets.

 

[Lhynn]

Not really. It would have been different, for sure. And better, imo. In the end the Infinity Engine just isn't up to it, though. Perhaps even Aurora isn't up to what I have in mind but, short of coding one's own engine from scratch, it may be as good as it gets.

Try RPG maker.

 

[Lilura]

Nah, it's easier just to DM a PnP campaign or a module for NWN. I may consider it in the future.

 

[Hupu]

You speak of this reddit TV show as if it is relevant. It is also possible to measure quality objectively in many areas. I'm not sure why you went on that tangent.

I don't understand your notion that a game can only balanced for at most a small slice of its players.
If a game feels unbalanced for a player who doesn't understand its mechanics, but balanced to a player who can employ his knowledge of the systems - can you then say that this game is only balanced for the second one? I'd say that it is balanced period, it just requires some skill and thought from the player.

I agree with your points about other factors to consider in consumables, that's why I like and recommended 7.62 Hard Life, as it has quite an involving inventory-Tetris to it. It's to the point that finding a chest carrier or a belt with pouches feels and more significant than finding a powerful weapon.

 

[J1M]

You speak of this reddit TV show as if it is relevant. It is also possible to measure quality objectively in many areas. I'm not sure why you went on that tangent.

I don't understand your notion that a game can only balanced for at most a small slice of its players.
If a game feels unbalanced for a player who doesn't understand its mechanics, but balanced to a player who can employ his knowledge of the systems - can you then say that this game is only balanced for the second one? I'd say that it is balanced period, it just requires some skill and thought from the player.

I agree with your points about other factors to consider in consumables, that's why I like and recommended 7.62 Hard Life, as it has quite an involving inventory-Tetris to it. It's to the point that finding a chest carrier or a belt with pouches feels and more significant than finding a powerful weapon.

That's probably because you've tried to extrapolate a single statement in the context of a thread discussing games about resource management to all games.

In a game like Neverwinter Nights you can build characters that make use of completely different resources, or characters that multi-class. Now, if you want to list everyone who picked a Ranger to play the game as "not understanding the mechanics" because the designers included a lot of undead foes and didn't communicate this before the game started, I'd say you are being silly. I use this as an example, not to straw-man your argument.

There are, however, lesser shades of this that would unbalance consumable design. A Ranger who picked up Favored Enemy feats for Orcs and finds there are no Orcs in the last half of the game is going to be seeing heavier consumable use than someone who built a martial character with more generic feats. That's not even considering the difference in effectiveness between say, a Ranger and a Wizard, or base classes and prestige classes.

In conclusion, consider the context under which I said those things. If you'd like to continue this, then define "balanced" so we are talking about the same thing because even Chess can be considered "unbalanced" given that white consistently wins about 4% more often.

 

[TigerKnee]

I started playing Swordflight and I got to say I wish I knew that quite a few of the consumables are class-limited.

Arcane-casters have the most items available to them I believe, not sure whether Rogues with UMD ranks are allowed to use scrolls, wands and the special charged spell book items.

As a Druid, I basically only get scrolls of spells that Druids can cast and global potions.

Can't imagine what being a pure Fighter is like.

 

[Lilura]

Rogues may equip, wield and use all kinds of shit with UMD. The higher the skill, the more powerful item can be used. At around 35-40 in the skill a rogue may read the highest lvl scrolls and wield holy avengers with 1 million GP upgrades (that's just an example, Swordflight doesn't go Monty Haul like that).

Here is my UMD thug rogue, end-game:

Just luuurved playing that char to malefactor in Swordflight.

Fighters do just fine, but there are not many reasons to take them past fourth, pre-epic. Multi-class with some other warrior class (barb, pally) or with rogue or PrC.

Druids have solid summons, and an animal companion that lvls up with its master. Animal empathy lets you dominate beasts like dire bears in addition, who stay loyal after resting or area-transition. I'm currently playing a druid in Chapter 2, and she's doing ok.

Speaking of which, look out for the build-specific quests in Chapter 2: they can give you the boost you need.

 

[Lurker King]

Pathologic

 

[Lurker King]

Yeah AoD economy is fucking intense. You have to work your ass off to actually have spending money. Loved that.

Meh, not really. You just need to kill people and gather loot to sell.

 

[Wayward Son]

Yeah AoD economy is fucking intense. You have to work your ass off to actually have spending money. Loved that.

Meh, not really. You just need to kill people and gather loot to sell.

Just like every RPG in the history of ever!

 

[Lurker King]

Yeah AoD economy is fucking intense. You have to work your ass off to actually have spending money. Loved that.

Meh, not really. You just need to kill people and gather loot to sell.

Just like every RPG in the history of ever!

The economy is broken in... every cRPG I can remember.

 

[Bubbles]

The Dwarf Run has a fairly stable economic progression for most of the game. Only on my very last shop visit did I feel like I had a bit too much cash.

 

[nomask7]

Probably the reason why proper resource management stopped being a thing at about the same time hardcore games stopped being a thing is that it makes the player's failure take so long and be so final. People don't like realising 20 hours in that they've played themselves into a corner they can't get out of. My experience of this sort of design is Warhammer: Dark Omen, which is a super great game, partly for that reason, but you don't easily get away with something like that these days.

Proper resource management is a stress test for your characters and skills as a player. It's more interesting than testing them encounter by encounter, because it makes even minor encounters and decisions important. In Dark Omen, you may have an easier mission at times, but it is still a mission where you will lose some amount of troops, and you need to take it seriously and put effort into it so as to lose as few as possible. Even if you can save scum, how do you know beforehand what is an acceptable loss for you in the long term? This sort of system makes it harder to "cheat" in this manner, because you don't see the consequences of your failures until much later.

 

[TigerKnee]

AoD has like two economies - if you're a pacifist Visual Novel player, money is pretty valuable, and if you're playing a combat wombat, you have an abundance because you get a ridiculous ton of Metal to melt down and sell or craft your own shit with.