Shadowrun Shadowrun: Hong Kong Pre-Release Discussion [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Morality Games]

I haven't played the previous Shadowrun games, are they continuation of a single story or separate?

Separate.

 

[Hoaxmetal]

That's good to hear, thanks.

 

[Roguey]

I don't like the idea of needlessly large levels or combat-that's-so-easy-even-RPS-thinks-it-is (though he probably played it on normal).

Everything else sounds as expected.

 

[DeepOcean]

I was more making a comment on the fact that each companion has to have a "Quest" that always results in their issue being resolved and leading to some pay off. A unique item, they don't betray you later on, they survive or do something in the finale of the game. Etc..

This is what I consider the Bioware Tropes in Video games. You get a bunch of multi-diversity companions and give them all troubled pasts (that you have to resolve) which leads to cheap 20 minute side quests which after completion always leads to a resolution for that companion.

Gloria started as a brooding quiet girl.. but then you do some shit and go some places and now it's all better.
Ogre chick hates you, hates your leadership, do some quests and now she will give her life for you.
Dude Bro is Dude bro until you save his bro and now he's all like duuude bro!

I actually liked the companion stories in Dragon Fall.. I just understand where this "Bioware Archetype" thing is coming from.

I would just like to remind people that Bioware didn't invented the character arc, sure, they are lazy, inept and juvenile at it but if people use this criteria of "Character change to the positive so it is a Bioware archetype thing" half the novels on the planet would be made by Bioware writers... actually, thinking better at this, if you use Bioware = terrible writing, yeah most writting is Bioware writing.

The problem with the "Bioware archetype thing" is the premise that the other characters are always nice with you and there should ever be serious differences between them and you that can't be easily fixed. They can't be mean, betray you or use you or they loyalty be questionable or if they are all of that, at some point they will repent and become best friends and that is some sort of fan service that pretty much most RPG developers do. Bioware is just unique about it because they are uniquely bad when it comes to fan service.

 

[Sykar]

I would just like to remind people that Bioware didn't invented the character arc, sure, they are lazy, inept and juvenile at it but if people use this criteria of "Character change to the positive so it is a Bioware archetype thing" half the novels on the planet would be made by Bioware writers... actually, thinking better at this, if you use Bioware = terrible writing, yeah most writting is Bioware writing.

The problem with the "Bioware archetype thing" is the premise that the other characters are always nice with you and there should ever be serious differences between them and you that can't be easily fixed. They can't be mean, betray you or use you or they loyalty be questionable or if they are all of that, at some point they will repent and become best friends and that is some sort of fan service that pretty much most RPG developers do. Bioware is just unique about it because they are uniquely bad when it comes to fan service.

Morrigan fanbiodrones would disagree with you!

Spoiler

 

[veevoir]

Sykar fuck off, this post triggered me!

Posting such shit is straight up irresponsible, you opressive shitlord!

Spoiler

 

[Sykar]

I got a trigger license!

 

[Immortal]

I would just like to remind people that Bioware didn't invented the character arc, sure, they are lazy, inept and juvenile at it but if people use this criteria of "Character change to the positive so it is a Bioware archetype thing" half the novels on the planet would be made by Bioware writers... actually, thinking better at this, if you use Bioware = terrible writing, yeah most writting is Bioware writing.

The problem with the "Bioware archetype thing" is the premise that the other characters are always nice with you and there should ever be serious differences between them and you that can't be easily fixed. They can't be mean, betray you or use you or they loyalty be questionable or if they are all of that, at some point they will repent and become best friends and that is some sort of fan service that pretty much most RPG developers do. Bioware is just unique about it because they are uniquely bad when it comes to fan service.

I mean if you are referring to the hero's journey archetype.. then sure..

My point was that Bioware is the first company that comes to mind that took companions and tried to make it seem like they had character arcs that always culminated in a single fire side quest. It feels weird and takes away from the main story.. which let's be honest is also pretty shit in Bioware's case but still..

I am not saying Bioware created the Hero Journey story arc, I am saying that in relation to games they are generally the ones who started campy sub plots that rarely pay off in a meaningful way or seem way to bi-polar to feel immersive.

The biggest reason for this (IMO) usually is because of the "Too many cooks in the kitchen" syndrome, where Bioware has a bunch of tard writers all wanting their special snow flake to be front and center because Bioware always needs like 8 - 12 companions, who are all diverse and appeal to different demographics, then decides each one needs a meaningful arc, which leads to none of them having anything meaningful at all.

EDIT:
Getting things back on topic for a second.. I can't wait to get home and play the shit out of this game.
Their area design gets sexier and sexier each Shadow Run..
I really hope the game plays similar to Dragon Fall in story and mission choices.

 

[J_C]

Because I'm too lazy to convert stupid amercian timezones, could someone tell me when will the game unlock in GMT time?

 

[Immortal]

Because I'm too lazy to convert stupid amercian timezones, could someone tell me when will the game unlock in GMT time?

I didn't even see a preload option before going to work..
I had to check to make sure the release date was still Aug 20th.. also the store page doesn't have any count down to release..

Steam is fucking with my head.

 

[veevoir]

5pm I think. In potatoland it is 7pm and we are currently +2.

Also people who provide some non-standard timezones should be publicly shamed. SI for units, GMT for time, is it that hard? Should I draw it in football fields lengths?

 

[Duellist_D]

3 hours 51 minutes left until playing

 

[Infinitron]

Because I'm too lazy to convert stupid amercian timezones, could someone tell me when will the game unlock in GMT time?

Just look at the game's Steam page, the sale timer is also a countdown to release.

 

[ArchAngel]

I didn't even see a preload option before going to work..
I had to check to make sure the release date was still Aug 20th.. also the store page doesn't have any count down to release..

Steam is fucking with my head.

Not true it does have a countdown. The preorder deal has a countdown when the discount expires.

 

[almondblight]

I was more making a comment on the fact that each companion has to have a "Quest" that always results in their issue being resolved and leading to some pay off.

Well, none of their issues were resolved really:

Spoiler

- Glory: I chose to save the kids instead of stop the cult leader. At the end of the game Glory leaves the team to track him down on her own (apparently there are a bunch of different ways her mission can end, don't know about the others).

- Eiger: You stop one guy from her past from doing some bad stuff, and find out that the org he's working for is going to do much worse stuff that you can't stop. And she stays unrepentant about torturing/executing people when she gets mad.

- Blitz: You help him out of a debt problem he has, but he doesn't change much. If you try to get him to save his girlfriend, you screw up his relationship and he gets depressed.

 

[Killzig]

I like that the best Blitz outcome is only possible if you repeatedly tell him to knock it the fuck off.

 

[Immortal]

Well, none of their issues were resolved really:

Spoiler

- Glory: I chose to save the kids instead of stop the cult leader. At the end of the game Glory leaves the team to track him down on her own (apparently there are a bunch of different ways her mission can end, don't know about the others).

- Eiger: You stop one guy from her past from doing some bad stuff, and find out that the org he's working for is going to do much worse stuff that you can't stop. And she stays unrepentant about torturing/executing people when she gets mad.

- Blitz: You help him out of a debt problem he has, but he doesn't change much. If you try to get him to save his girlfriend, you screw up his relationship and he gets depressed.

This suffers from another common issue I have with CnC / plot resolutions - the dreaded "Obsidian Slide Show with Dull Narrator Voice Over" Trope.

My Point:

• The side quests all resolve the issues as far as the game is concerned.
  • Is there more story after the game is over? Of course there is but I don't care because it doesn't affect the game I am playing.
    
  • It's nice flavour text and I appreciate it but to say it adds depth or momentum to the decisions I made is weak.

Aside:
Bioware does this too, It's a clear marking of "Too many spinning plates in the air and we don't have a budget to catch them all".. It really affects nothing in the game.
So what if you give me a little carrot dangling at the end of the game, My choice to help my companion really had no impact or depth, just a few line swaps in the post-mortem.

Before You Reply:
I know there isn't a traditional slide show style ending that you see in games like New Vegas or NWN 2.. But the point remains.
You do the side quest or you don't, the impact is small and each companion must have a 1:1 ratio of Mission to Dark Past. It feels campy.

I like that the best Blitz outcome is only possible if you repeatedly tell him to knock it the fuck off.

I think his story was one of the most refreshing and original I've seen and fits the setting really well, which is why I didn't mention it. I intentionally tried to take the "paragon save the day" route, just to see how it would end. It ended in a true shadow run fashion of terribly. Amazing sub-plot IMO.

 

[Starwars]

There's a new trailer up on the STEAM page featuring some dundundun voiceacting. Pretty cool.

 

[Immortal]

There's a new trailer up on the STEAM page featuring some dundundun voiceacting. Pretty cool.

Are they doing voice acting in this game?
I thought they scrapped it to put more money into other things..?

 

[Infinitron]

Only in the new "animatics" I believe.

 

[Abu Antar]

Less than 2 hours. Gonna play something else or just hang around here.

 

[RK47]

 

[almondblight]

My Point:

• The side quests all resolve the issues as far as the game is concerned.
  • Is there more story after the game is over? Of course there is but I don't care because it doesn't affect the game I am playing.
    
  • It's nice flavour text and I appreciate it but to say it adds depth or momentum to the decisions I made is weak.

Not sure what you're saying. The issues aren't resolved, but when you finish all of the missions dealing with XYZ, naturally there are no more missions dealing with XYZ. You wanted there to be more than one mission for the character sidequests? Or for stuff from them to show up in other missions?

 

[Immortal]

Not sure what you're saying. The issues aren't resolved, but when you finish all of the missions dealing with XYZ, naturally there are no more missions dealing with XYZ. You wanted there to be more than one mission for the character sidequests? Or for stuff from them to show up in other missions?

Yea, Basically.
Don't branch the story off if you can't fully realize that arc in a meaningful way.

Just write the characters how they should be naturally, then if it makes sense for a back story arc, play it to the hilt.

Not every companion needs a "sub-plot / mission" and not every sub-plot should start and stop in a single level. The consequences of what happened to that character should bleed over into other missions and areas of the game while your still playing it. It's more work, no doubt - maybe it means some characters get a little more shafted. It's my opinion but we don't need every NPC to be a snowflake with a speshal mission level.


==== Opinionated Land =====

This whole ideology is a Bioware Staple IMO

• Every companion must have a unique back story - with a story hook that is force fed to us.
  • I'm fine with unique back stories, obviously its good writing to have fleshed out characters but we don't need every detail of their history spoon fed to us. Things can be ambiguous or just not ever told to us outright and used more as a tool by developers to flesh their motivations out - without ever telling the player it.
• Every back story must go to a special or different location off the main quest
  • with that companion tagging along
• Finally - that arc needs to be resolved for them at that moment (without affecting the main story)
  • with an optional slide show at the end of the game with 2 -3 possible endings for their "arc"
  • or a possible change to the "final battle" where your choice to help a companion leads to some kind of twist or resolution. Betrayal / Death

NWN, Dragon Age, Star Wars, Mass Effect, Jade Empire and even Baldurs Gate 2 to an extent..
It bleeds over to Obsidian games too and this game as well. It feels campy and breaks the flow of the game with these quick Episodic Sub-plots and you basically are checking the boxes for each companion in case there's a consquence later on in the game if you didn't do it.

(AKA Mass Effect 2, if you don't do all their sub-plots, they die at the end, Or NWN 2 - They might betray you)

 

[Unbeliever]

Half a hour. It will be 7 PM when download starts, so I will have seven or eight hours for playing Hong Kong before bedtime. And for switching from time to time on Underrail.

Life is really good this days.