So... Dragon Age 2...

[Lagole Gon]

Oh man, I just love these.
"DA:O is super fun, you just can't use certain spells and potions", "Stop using OP spells", "Don't use bloodmage and arcane warrior".

Not exactly arguments in DA:O's favor...

 

[pan]

Taking an elitist attitude towards a shitty game is idiotic. Stop it.

No. I will however concede to possibly being an idiot for re-reading Gaider comics.

From what little I know about comics, one is not supposed to combine descriptive art with simplistic text. Perhaps that page is an exception, though. Also I think that the last two panels would have worked better without any text at all. The text detracts from the action taking place.

 

[Roguey]

Oh man, I just love these.
"DA:O is super fun, you just can't use certain spells and potions", "Stop using OP spells", "Don't use bloodmage and arcane warrior".

Not exactly arguments in DA:O's favor...

BG2 is super fun, just don't use rest spam or OP spells or kensai/mages.

 

[Erebus]

Pool of Radiance 2 is super fun, just use the disk as a frisbee.

 

[Dreaad]

That does sound riveting, much like hiking through mushroom land.

 

[pan]

Oh man, I just love these.
"DA:O is super fun, you just can't use certain spells and potions", "Stop using OP spells", "Don't use bloodmage and arcane warrior".

Not exactly arguments in DA:O's favor...

BG2 is super fun, just don't use rest spam or OP spells or kensai/mages.

Um, you realise that that is valid criticism of BG2, right?

The game is a cakewalk unless you place major restrictions on yourself (or use mods).

Once again you have demonstrated total lack of critical thought and ability to comprehend the discussion preferring to bring up irrelevant nonsense and quotes by Josh Sawyer:declining:

 

[Lagole Gon]

Oh man, I just love these.
"DA:O is super fun, you just can't use certain spells and potions", "Stop using OP spells", "Don't use bloodmage and arcane warrior".

Not exactly arguments in DA:O's favor...

BG2 is super fun, just don't use rest spam or OP spells or kensai/mages.

I was just giving examples from interwebs, not actual criticism. Why are you so literal? Geeezus
and...
BG 2 IS FUN BECAUSE OF OP MAGIC!

The difference is - DA:O has no variety, no resource management and overall shitty mechanics (I've never invested a single point in mana, potions are common and crafting is rather cheap). You just pick up a cone of cold and spam it. Spam. Spam. Spam. Bandits? Spam. Spam. Spam. Undead? Spam. Spam. Spam. Darkspawn? Spam. Spam. Spam? Dragon? Oh, now it gets difficult. Maybe you should spam Hex, before spamming CoC. Spam. Spam. Spam. It works for fucking everybody. And it's not some cheesy, obscure tactic.

Now go ahead. Name an overpowered spell in BG2 that works miracles in every combat scenario, available after 2 hours of gameplay.

Avelline goes ape shit crazy about some elves who killed a rapist, but she doesn't mind Hawke murdering 100 people per day.

• Merrill: Why don't you arrest us, Aveline?
• Aveline: What?
• Merrill: We break the law. I'm pretty sure. There are laws for almost everything. You're not a bad guard, are you?
• Aveline: No!

(If on a friendship path with Merrill)

• Merrill: That's good. Is it because you're fond of Hawke? I kind of am.
• Aveline: How very nice for you. Keep it to yourself.
• Merrill: I'd rather keep it with her/him.

(If on a rivalry path with Merrill)

• Merrill: That's good. You look uncomfortable. Did I say something wrong again?
• Aveline: No, Merrill, that's fine.
• Merrill: Ah, maybe it's your shoes.

She will let some murders slide because she likes him, but when the city is on a brink of war she just has to arrest those elves and piss off Qunari.
So Bioware once again presents women as crazy aliens unable to think rationally, driven only by emotions. Creepy puppets.

Hawke. A guy who kills 30 bandits when he's trying to cross a street is unable to stop one templar from taking away Bethany.

Can't be everywhere at once.

Hawke is right there. Why u lie?

 

[pan]

By the way, Roguey, spamming rest doesn't achieve anything. Just using it once at a time will do.

 

[Roguey]

Um, you realise that that is valid criticism of BG2, right?

Mmm hmm.

BG 2 IS FUN BECAUSE OF OP MAGIC!

I wouldn't say so. The variety of spells is important, not the power.

The difference is - DA:O has no variety, no resource management and overall shitty mechanics (I've never invested a single point in mana, potions are common and crafting is rather cheap). You just pick up a cone of cold and spam it. Spam. Spam. Spam. Bandits? Spam. Spam. Spam. Undead? Spam. Spam. Spam. Darkspawn? Spam. Spam. Spam? Dragon? Oh, now it gets difficult. Maybe you should spam Hex, before spamming CoC. Spam. Spam. Spam. It works for fucking everybody. And it's not some cheesy, obscure tactic.

Now go ahead. Name an overpowered spell in BG2 that works miracles in every combat scenario, available after 2 hours of gameplay.

Chromatic Orb, a level 1 spell that instantly kills those who fail the save against it once the mage hits level 12. Web is a great crowd control spell that prevents enemies from attacking. Haste lets you utterly wreck shit as long as you don't care about degenerate resting. Slow decreases enemies' rate of attack, chance to hit, and chance to avoid damage. If you're not using a fan patch, any wand of cloudkill will devastate all opponents because it ignores spell resistance (reminds me of cone of cold). And don't forget trap spam->rest->repeat.

BG2 doesn't have resource management either. AD&D is also full of shitty mechanics.

Hawke is right there. Why u lie?

Your companion isn't kidnapped right in front of you, someone else tells you they've been.

 

[Dreaad]

The difference is - DA:O has no variety, no resource management and overall shitty mechanics (I've never invested a single point in mana, potions are common and crafting is rather cheap). You just pick up a cone of cold and spam it. Spam. Spam. Spam. Bandits? Spam. Spam. Spam. Undead? Spam. Spam. Spam. Darkspawn? Spam. Spam. Spam? Dragon? Oh, now it gets difficult. Maybe you should spam Hex, before spamming CoC. Spam. Spam. Spam. It works for fucking everybody. And it's not some cheesy, obscure tactic.

Now go ahead. Name an overpowered spell in BG2 that works miracles in every combat scenario, available after 2 hours of gameplay.

Lvl 8 kensai/mage x... globe invulnerability, stone skin, improved haste... gg

 

[DeepOcean]

The difference is - DA:O has no variety, no resource management and overall shitty mechanics (I've never invested a single point in mana, potions are common and crafting is rather cheap). You just pick up a cone of cold and spam it. Spam. Spam. Spam. Bandits? Spam. Spam. Spam. Undead? Spam. Spam. Spam. Darkspawn? Spam. Spam. Spam? Dragon? Oh, now it gets difficult. Maybe you should spam Hex, before spamming CoC. Spam. Spam. Spam. It works for fucking everybody. And it's not some cheesy, obscure tactic.

Now go ahead. Name an overpowered spell in BG2 that works miracles in every combat scenario, available after 2 hours of gameplay.

Lvl 8 kensai/mage x... globe invulnerability, stone skin, improved haste... gg

It actually takes a long time before a kensai/mage become powerful, especialy with a full party. You have 8 levels of kensai and it takes alot of mage levels until getting the more powerful spells and enough spell slots, only after level 16 or more he starts to be really powerful. I actually think that Web/Entagle + kiting with a all ranged party way more abusable at low levels.

 

[Delterius]

The problem isn't that there are powerful and varied spell combos in the game, rather that such a useful tactic comes with a single low level spell that remains powerful from the moment you pick it all the way to the end-boss. Cone of Cold is a low level spell that deals high damage and either freezes the enemy of cuts its spellcasting. A BG2 equivalent would be a level 3equivalent to Sleep that worked with everyone all the way up to MoTB's final moments and also dealt damage that didn't break the status effect.

Furthermore, merely picking Cone of Cold is just there. Its a obvious potential decision. Combining Kensai with Mage and using certain specific spell combos? Not so much.

But lastly, the most important thing to note is something that Roguey said - not to spam Rest - that elevates BG2 above and beyond DA:O. Though I'm not a fan of Vancian magic per-se, it can introduce strategic considerations that make magic much more powerful than it necessarily is. What combos you execute is limited by the spell slots; While D&D magic is more powerful than average because its balanced around its limits.

DA:O did neither of those things. Its spell system is purely tactical, with most magic being readily avaiable at all times, and yet its not balanced around that. Mages are capable of conjuring truly powerful fireballs and cones of cold without major concerns with depletion of their resources, be it through the adventures or in the middle of battle (potions are a virtually infinite resource).

 

[Dreaad]

The problem isn't that there are powerful and varied spell combos in the game, rather that such a useful tactic comes with a single low level spell that remains powerful from the moment you pick it all the way to the end-boss. Cone of Cold is a low level spell that deals high damage and either freezes the enemy of cuts its spellcasting. A BG2 equivalent would be a level 3equivalent to Sleep that worked with everyone all the way up to MoTB's final moments and also dealt damage that didn't break the status effect.

Furthermore, merely picking Cone of Cold is just there. Its a obvious potential decision. Combining Kensai with Mage and using certain specific spell combos? Not so much.

But lastly, the most important thing to note is something that Roguey said - not to spam Rest - that elevates BG2 above and beyond DA:O. Though I'm not a fan of Vancian magic per-se, it can introduce strategic considerations that make magic much more powerful than it necessarily is. What combos you execute is limited by the spell slots; While D&D magic is more powerful than average because its balanced around its limits.

DA:O did neither of those things. Its spell system is purely tactical, with most magic being readily avaiable at all times, and yet its not balanced around that. Mages are capable of conjuring truly powerful fireballs and cones of cold without major concerns with depletion of their resources, be it through the adventures or in the middle of battle (potions are a virtually infinite resource).

So what you are saying is that if DA:O had a rest system like d&d it would be fine? That's what it sounds like anyway...

 

[DeepOcean]

On BG 2, mages are frail creatures, even liches can die by a few hits (even dragons die fast if you know what you are doing), they survive by placing a serie of protections on themselves that you have to conteract if you want to damage them, on DA because of the lack of a complex spell system, mages have big HP bloat to not die instantly instead of using spells to protect themselves, you were frail too on BG 2, a single fire ball/crowd control spell at a low level party was instant GG most of time. Most DA mage battles, the enemy spellcaster just spam fire ball or cone of cold for the most part and because they can spam those spells, your tanks start with an already decent ammount of hitpoints to survive and as healing is spammable being hit by a fireball hurts alot but is hardly the end of world. Mages on DA just use basic spells at you from the beginning to the end(mostly fireball/cone of cold), there aren't dangerous crowd control spells that can work on the player(never saw enemies using) that can cause terror, paralyzation and etc, summoning is a joke, crowd control spells feels very samey and Afliction + Mana Clash = one shoting all enemy mages at the start of the battles from the middle of the game to the end on the last difficulty level. Mechanics like threat level, HP bloat, cooldowns and normal, elite and super elite versions of the enemies makes clear that the combat was a slightly more developed version of WoW combat system in that you control 4 players instead of one. The only reason EA marketed DA as a BG 2 successor was because you control more than one character and the setting is a Forgotten Realms rip off, in terms of mechanics DA is a single player orientated WoW.

 

[Malpercio]

BG2 may be broken, but it requires at least some knowledge of D&D mechanics to truly broke the game.

Even a monkey can use DA spell system.

Plus, BG2 bestiary doesn't allow you to use the same tactics over and over. Don't tell me you fight a dragon the same way you fight against a group of Mind Flayers or Vampires or a bunch of mages.

In DA even a bunch of undeads fight like bandits and dragoons are just humans with a lot of HP. There is no variety whatsoever and even thinking of replaying the game gives me an aneurysm, whatever i can replay SoA 10 times in a row.

 

[Lagole Gon]

Chromatic Orb, a level 1 spell that instantly kills those who fail the save against it once the mage hits level 12. Web is a great crowd control spell that prevents enemies from attacking. Haste lets you utterly wreck shit as long as you don't care about degenerate resting. Slow decreases enemies' rate of attack, chance to hit, and chance to avoid damage. If you're not using a fan patch, any wand of cloudkill will devastate all opponents because it ignores spell resistance (reminds me of cone of cold). And don't forget trap spam->rest->repeat.

Spoiler

Pick one legit cheesy tactic and try to beat the whole SoA using it. Can't do it.
I assure you, you can beat DA:O using only CoC and hex supported with potions. Well, last time I checked anyway (Funny how every patch was nerfing this spell a little bit). And it's not exactly a complicated master plan. Actually, It doesn't require almost any metaknowledge.

BG2 doesn't have resource management either.

Yes it does. Spell slot is a resource. It prevents you from casting without limits. It's perfectly normal to run out of spells when you fight Thaxll'ssillyia or hostile adventurers, therefore you have to make decisions. Cast heal now, or absorb more damage? Cast something for crowd control, or interrupt casters?
In DA:O? Mana potion. Spam. Spam. Spam. Potion. Spam. Spam. Spam. Whatever your tactic is, it's all about repetition. Cast whatever you want, whenever you want, you can do it without limits.

Hawke is right there. Why u lie?

Your companion isn't kidnapped right in front of you, someone else tells you they've been.

I meant the end of act I.

 

[Roguey]

video

Pretty bad yes, but DA:O traps require purchasing. BG2 traps are completely free.

Pick one legit cheesy tactic and try to beat the whole SoA using it. Can't do it.

Trap spam. Boom.

I assure you, you can beat DA:O using only CoC and hex supported with potions. Well, last time I checked anyway (Funny how every patch was nerfing this spell a little bit). And it's not exactly a complicated master plan. Actually, It doesn't require almost any metaknowledge.

With three mages, very likely (though you'd want to use crushing prison and stonefist so it's no longer "only CoC"). Not with just one, maybe not even two.

I think they only nerfed it once. And for whatever reason, until DA2, they missed the most obvious flaw, that being its too-high chance for freezing enemies.

BG2 doesn't have resource management either.

Yes it does. Spell slot is a resource. It prevents you from casting without limits. It's perfectly normal to run out of spells when you fight Thaxll'ssillyia or hostile adventurers, therefore you have to make decisions. Cast heal now, or absorb more damage? Cast something for crowd control, or interrupt casters?[/quote]If you're in a battle, it's always a good time to cast spells. Alpha strike, alpha strike, alpha strike. Why would you hold off on healing or not make interrupting a caster your priority? False dilemma.

In DA:O? Mana potion. Spam. Spam. Spam. Potion. Spam. Spam. Spam. Whatever your tactic is, it's all about repetition. Cast whatever you want, whenever you want, you can do it without limits.

Potions are a crutch for people using poor tactics. It's not unlike buying all the cheat items from the adventurer's mart and then complaining about the lack of effort involved.

You're also forgetting cooldowns.

I meant the end of act I.

That's an unwinnable fight by GM fiat. Had you been given the option, they'd just keep sending level 20 templars at you until you died.

 

[Zeriel]

Tactics that work are by definition not "poor tactics". That's some bizarre space-lesbian logic you've got rolling there, missy.

 

[Roguey]

Tactics that work are by definition not "poor tactics". That's some bizarre space-lesbian logic you've got rolling there, missy.

There's a broad range of efficiency. If every battle requires constant healing or mana replenishing, your tactics aren't as good as those that allow you to win by using no potions at all. It's clear potions are there for bad or less-than-good players by looking at the reactive potion limit/chance. At casual difficulty, you have a 100% chance of getting a potion in a randomized loot drop if you have fewer than 20. On nightmare, you have a 25% chance of getting a potion if you have 0.

 

[Zeriel]

Maybe my elitist patriarchal instincts are showing here, but I am more likely to pin that on the game's fault than the player. If the game cared about poor tactics, it would not allow players to beat the game using them. Encouraging players to make dumb decisions means the developers don't really care about good gameplay, so you'd probably be better off lecturing the developers.

 

[Roguey]

Bioware wants broad appeal, including people who like schlocky stories but don't want to deal with ~gameplay~ to get it. The DA team also has a fundamentally flawed approach to RPG systems which results in a lot of unbalanced crap. ME2 was served well by using the Sawyer method, but Laidlaw and Thomas seemingly took a cargo cult approach to that with DA2.

 

[Horus]

were very close to being excellent, which I honestly wish some people would try to recreate in a more palatable game engine.

The three main things that caught my attention were:
1.) The time frame and location. I don't mean the city of Kirkwall itself, but the way the game is set in one location over a period of time (where things happened and the situation changes). It could have been done much better I think, especially in the sense that the changes weren't all that dramatic. But if some used this formula and then over three or four chapters showed how a city/npc's change over time e.g. new districts go up, visually the people around you age and perhaps the political situation shifts around - reacting with your role-playing choices to some degree (even if only cosmetically). This is something I would actually enjoy a whole lot more I think than just another quest over a country side with little stops along the way.

This strangely reminds me of grim fandango.

 

[Lagole Gon]

video

Pretty bad yes, but DA:O traps require purchasing. BG2 traps are completely free.

Pick one legit cheesy tactic and try to beat the whole SoA using it. Can't do it.

Trap spam. Boom.

You do realize there's a limit, right? 7 per location.
It's not going to work when you don't have time to prepare (vampire ambush in Brynnlaw etc.)
It's not going to work against large groups of enemies.
Irenicus (Nine Hells) will teleport and heal (scripted).

Can't beat Kangaxx like this. Dragons can survive it (I'm also pretty sure they will attack you if you start to mess around with summons and traps around them). These enemies are optional, but then again, most of them are. Because this is a proper cRPG.
Try again.

(Not to mention rest-traps-rest-traps-rest-traps is hardly an intuitive playstyle while DA:O has unbalanced shit in the most basic game mechanics. See the difference?)

I assure you, you can beat DA:O using only CoC and hex supported with potions. Well, last time I checked anyway (Funny how every patch was nerfing this spell a little bit). And it's not exactly a complicated master plan. Actually, It doesn't require almost any metaknowledge.

With three mages, very likely (though you'd want to use crushing prison and stonefist so it's no longer "only CoC"). Not with just one, maybe not even two.

Stonefist or prison are not necessary, it's just much quicker with them. With 3 mages you can keep anything frozen almost constantly (Except for adult dragons I guess.), not to mention okay-ish damage.

If you're in a battle, it's always a good time to cast spells. Alpha strike, alpha strike, alpha strike. Why would you hold off on healing

Because you have limited amount of heavy healing spells. And sometimes (rarely, I admit) you will run out of them during the combat. If you cast them too early it's a waste. If you cast them too late it's a death.

or not make interrupting a caster your priority? False dilemma.

Because fighters may pose bigger threat, depends on situation.

Think again.

In DA:O? Mana potion. Spam. Spam. Spam. Potion. Spam. Spam. Spam. Whatever your tactic is, it's all about repetition. Cast whatever you want, whenever you want, you can do it without limits.

Potions are a crutch for people using poor tactics. It's not unlike buying all the cheat items from the adventurer's mart and then complaining about the lack of effort involved.

You're also forgetting cooldowns.

Potions - I know, right? They suck! Unlike in BG where you have varied selection of mixtures and healing potions don't spawn when you need them.
Lol, cheat items from the adventurer's mart. That reminds me free blood dragon armour...
Lol, cooldowns. Coc - 15s cooldown, freeze time 10s
With two mages you can keep low and medium enemies frozen all the time. With three...

I meant the end of act I.

That's an unwinnable fight by GM fiat. Had you been given the option, they'd just keep sending level 20 templars at you until you died.

Of course.
But it's silly because gameplay makes Hawke look like an unstoppable avatar of death.
Imoen and cloaked wizards is a simmilar BS, but you don't have reasons to believe you can defeat them (and Irenicus).

Not to mention CW are doing thier jobs, unlike the order of blind cretins. Again, gameplay and story are killing each other.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Stop defending Baldur's Gate 2. It wasn't even a cRPG, it was a western style jRPG.

 

[Zeriel]

Oh, dear god. You're serious, aren't you?