So... Dragon Age 2...

[Lagole Gon]

Stop defending Baldur's Gate 2. It wasn't even a cRPG, it was a western style jRPG.

I believe you meant Anachronox

 

[sea]

I have to agree with the "potion spam is for players who suck" assessment. While using some potions here and there is useful and sometimes needed on the highest difficulty, it's not as if you couldn't potion spam in Baldur's Gate either.

The most underrated spells in Dragon Age are hexes and glyphs. Hexes, because you can make tough enemies extremely vulnerable. Glyphs, because you can keep any enemies from passing a choke point for an extremely long time, buff your warriors while they hold off that point, and paralyze anyone who gets beyond there. It lets your mages nuke the crap out of enemies while keeping your party completely safe. That tactic itself is almost enough to trivialize most combat provided you prepare for fights properly (i.e. don't blindly rush in to every room), and is way more powerful than spamming potions and cone of cold.

If you've ever played any HoMM-like, you should know that direct damage spells are rarely if ever the best use of your resources. Dragon Age is very similar to this but due to cheesy AI exploits (like casting AoEs in rooms before enemies aggro) it's simply easier to get away with spam.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Oh, dear god. You're serious, aren't you?

What meaningful C&C do you have in BG2?

 

[Jestai]

Or you could just cast Storm of the Century and finish the game using only AI.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Or you could just cast Storm of the Century and finish the game using only AI.

Or just be a Arcane Warrior and solo the game.

 

[Delterius]

So what you are saying is that if DA:O had a rest system like d&d it would be fine? That's what it sounds like anyway...

I think you can approach what I said in a number of ways, but all of which with the basis that powerful tactics should be limited somehow and not a simple of obvious choice.

So, yes, DA:O could benefit from a magic system similar to D&D. Vancian, meaning that your spell variety and overall spellcasting is hardcapped and with Resting such as what you see in Dark Souls. That's not my preferred route though - as I said I'm not a fan of Vancian magic per-se, only the strategic considerations it might bring.

Another thing is what you see in competitive games, where magic and non-magic are balanced between each other in such a way that every member of the party is always useful. In a single-player, party-based game you can have something like a 10-encounter adventure with mostly 'trash' where the warriors shine but one or two fights where that single casting of Sleep saved the day. This is perfectly fine, but not so much for a multiplayer game where everyone control a single character, which explain why MMOs do things differently.

I only mentioned this because a lot of people often do, but I dislike this method immensely. Because, while every character is effective at all moments, magic is both buffed and nerfed - Mages are no longer limited in their spellcasting, but magic isn't quite as deadly as it had been once before. I think this betrays the idea of playing a Wizard because you kind of promised him the ability to conjure a inferno of fire and brimstone, yet, common bandits are wading through as if its just hot wind.

So after all this, what I meant to say is the obvious. DA:O could benefit from a tweaking of its spellbook in such a way that most if not all spells were individually quite powerful - some would need to be buffed, others nerfed - however that they are costly endeavors. In order to accomplish the latter, Resting mechanics are but a way, however, limited and costly avaiability of Mana Potions (not cooldowns like in DA2, those are a terrible idea) coupled with a general increase of mana costs.

Or you could just cast Storm of the Century and finish the game using only AI.

Or just be a Arcane Warrior and solo the game.

You can do both, I know I did.

 

[DragoFireheart]

You can do both, I know I did.

There's no need to.

If you have a group, stack Haste twice and watch the lulz.

 

[Delterius]

You can do both, I know I did.

There's no need to.

If you have a group, stack Haste twice and watch the lulz.

As if you actually need to do a overpowered build in a first place. Also, I remember stacking haste 3 times and using companions just so I could walk really fast

As overpowered as the Arcane Warrior was, I think it was interesting because of how much it changed the original class. Future specializations could benefit from that, as opposed to the standard bag of tricks.

 

[Infinitron]

I have to agree with the "potion spam is for players who suck" assessment. While using some potions here and there is useful and sometimes needed on the highest difficulty, it's not as if you couldn't potion spam in Baldur's Gate either. The overall depth of combat

finish your sentence bro

 

[Lagole Gon]

I have to agree with the "potion spam is for players who suck" assessment. While using some potions here and there is useful and sometimes needed on the highest difficulty, it's not as if you couldn't potion spam in Baldur's Gate either.

DA:O is much worse in this regard:
- HP bloated characters.
- potions will spawn when you need them. Crafting isn't expensive.
- healing is usually a solution to every threat. No level drain, stat drain, domination spells etc. There's few casters with prison spell... and some grappling enemies... scatter shot lasts two seconds so it's not really a paralyze... anything else?
- You can spam them at ridiculous rate if you have different types (individual cooldowns). DAII fixed this. IMO overall DAII mechanics are big improvement. On paper.

 

[Roguey]

You do realize there's a limit, right? 7 per location.

Still enough to kill anything. By the way, that mostly-ineffective band-aid was patched in. Originally you could throw down as many traps you wanted.

It's not going to work when you don't have time to prepare (vampire ambush in Brynnlaw etc.)

I don't remember those, or any vampire fights in particular, since I had a magical throwing axe that would instantly kill any undead and a mace that did the same in case any others not-turned got too close.

It's not going to work against large groups of enemies.

Sure it will, especially if you exploit the fog of war to lure them in one by one. Unlike IWD, BG never implemented calls for help unless you're using a fan-made mod.

Irenicus (Nine Hells) will teleport and heal (scripted).

Takes care of his demons.

Can't beat Kangaxx like this.

It instantly kills his first form, letting you go straight to the demilich.

Dragons can survive it (I'm also pretty sure they will attack you if you start to mess around with summons and traps around them).

Nope and nope in my experience. You're using a mod.

These enemies are optional, but then again, most of them are. Because this is a proper cRPG.

A lot of enemies in DA:O are optional as well.

(Not to mention rest-traps-rest-traps-rest-traps is hardly an intuitive playstyle while DA:O has unbalanced shit in the most basic game mechanics. See the difference?)

Not really. One sees that thieves are pretty damn useless in direct combat, starts laying down traps, notices it's free instant mega-damage that's completely awesome, uses it to low-effort a lot of fights. AD&D also has unbalanced shit in most basic game mechanics, you're really going to say it doesn't?

If you're in a battle, it's always a good time to cast spells. Alpha strike, alpha strike, alpha strike. Why would you hold off on healing

Because you have limited amount of heavy healing spells. And sometimes (rarely, I admit) you will run out of them during the combat. If you cast them too early it's a waste. If you cast them too late it's a death.

You know how many points of damage a healing spell will heal. The obvious time to use it is when you enter that area.

or not make interrupting a caster your priority? False dilemma.

Because fighters may pose bigger threat, depends on situation.

Think again.

When have fighters ever been a bigger threat than a mage in the middle of spellcasting in AD&D?

But it's silly because gameplay makes Hawke look like an unstoppable avatar of death.

At that point, you've only ever fought relatively small groups, as opposed to declaring war on every templar in Kirkwall.

Imoen and cloaked wizards is a simmilar BS, but you don't have reasons to believe you can defeat them (and Irenicus).

You actually can keep killing the cloaked wizards until they agree to stop going after you.

 

[Zeriel]

Yep, the "fuck you, I'll just kill you guys" part of BG 1 & 2 was actually fairly well done, at least for the guards.

 

[Roguey]

Even after wiping them out they still refuse to hand over Imoen (though it's not really up to them since Irenicus is running the place but then you wonder why they don't help you take it back since it's their prison after all and realize that thinking about video game stories is a waste of time).

 

[sea]

DA:O is much worse in this regard:
- HP bloated characters.
- potions will spawn when you need them. Crafting isn't expensive.
- healing is usually a solution to every threat. No level drain, stat drain, domination spells etc. There's few casters with prison spell... and some grappling enemies... scatter shot lasts two seconds so it's not really a paralyze... anything else?
- You can spam them at ridiculous rate if you have different types (individual cooldowns). DAII fixed this. IMO overall DAII mechanics are big improvement. On paper.

So you agree it's not so much potion spamming itself that is the problem, but health and potions as the single significant resource management mechanic in combat? That's actually not really the case if you want to factor in cooldowns and other temporal factors of course, but it's still the most important.

 

[Lagole Gon]

DA:O is much worse in this regard:
- HP bloated characters.
- potions will spawn when you need them. Crafting isn't expensive.
- healing is usually a solution to every threat. No level drain, stat drain, domination spells etc. There's few casters with prison spell... and some grappling enemies... scatter shot lasts two seconds so it's not really a paralyze... anything else?
- You can spam them at ridiculous rate if you have different types (individual cooldowns). DAII fixed this. IMO overall DAII mechanics are big improvement. On paper.

So you agree it's not so much potion spamming itself that is the problem, but health and potions as the single significant resource management mechanic in combat? That's actually not really the case if you want to factor in cooldowns and other temporal factors of course, but it's still the most important.

I suppose you can call it the source of the problem.
Stuff like "intelligent" loot spawn just makes it worse and more visible. DA:O gives you free get-out-of-jail card way too often (except for nightmare).

 

[DraQ]

Bioware wants broad appeal, including people who like schlocky stories but don't want to deal with ~gameplay~ to get it.

And are too fucking dumb to youtube.

My, my. The cream of the crop.
With audiences like this, it's no wonder Bi-aware's stories are so retarded.

I can only congratulate BW team the endurance and willpower.
Not everyone would willingly masturbate retards for a living.
At least not for long before hanging themselves on an extension cord.

 

[Roguey]

And are too fucking dumb to youtube.

I imagine it'd be pretty difficult to find the exact permutation of the story you want to see on youtube.

 

[Hepler's Vagina]

And are too fucking dumb to youtube.

I imagine it'd be pretty difficult to find the exact permutation of the story you want to see on youtube.

Erm, except I thought we'd established BioWare doesn't do permutations, besides "I'll do it" (dickish tone) "I'll do it" (preachy holier-than-thou tone) and "I'll do it" (badass tone).

 

[Dreaad]

BG2 may be broken, but it requires at least some knowledge of D&D mechanics to truly broke the game.

Even a monkey can use DA spell system.

Plus, BG2 bestiary doesn't allow you to use the same tactics over and over. Don't tell me you fight a dragon the same way you fight against a group of Mind Flayers or Vampires or a bunch of mages.

In DA even a bunch of undeads fight like bandits and dragoons are just humans with a lot of HP. There is no variety whatsoever and even thinking of replaying the game gives me an aneurysm, whatever i can replay SoA 10 times in a row.

Actually I did fight every fight the same way, improved haste or haste, stoneskin, globe of invulnerability. Sure occasionally I had to cast protection from fear.

Look I don't think DA:O had some sort amazing balance or tactics involved, but neither did anything in the infinity engine. Hell if they added a rest/memorization system to DA:O for mages it would be exactly the fucking same. Since you can abuse the rest/memorization scheme anyway in infinity engine games, I don't see the problem of the developers of DA:O doing it for you. You can make any game as hard or as easy as you choose (there is always a way).

 

[Roguey]

Erm, except I thought we'd established BioWare doesn't do permutations, besides "I'll do it" (dickish tone) "I'll do it" (preachy holier-than-thou tone) and "I'll do it" (badass tone).

Plus companions plus mutually exclusive decisions. Maybe this person wants to leave Bethany behind, that one wants to bring her to the deep roads without Anders, and the other wants to bring her with Anders or maybe they want to do the whole deal with Carver instead.

 

[pan]

• In BG2 enemies couldn't attack you from five screen lengths away.
• The camera was capable of moving five screen lengths away.
• Party members didn't require such huge amounts of micromanagement that acceding control to scripted AI was deemed necessary by devs.
• There were more than a dozen different enemy types.
• Spells and abilities were diverse, the range of their effects leading to variation between fights.
• Positioning played a role in more than it's relation to AoE spells or abilities.
• Map imagery was unique, hand crafted; not the generic assets of a construction set.
• Unique items were prolific, with a wide range of abilities between them all.
• There was no incremental weapons and armour system.
• Level scaling of monsters was rare, maybe non-existent when it came to items.

These are the reasons BG2 game play was superior. Whether it was more difficult is irrelevant. The game wasn't level scaled, so it was possible to over level your party and then trample over every enemy using just hasted warriors, for instance.

 

[Dreaad]

• In BG2 enemies couldn't attack you from five screen lengths away.
• The camera was capable of moving five screen lengths away.

• This is one of the biggest complaints of the infinity engine, the level of abuse possible by this flaw alone is atrocious, cloudkill, archery, 100 sitiational buffs before starting combat the list goes on. Oh and lets not mention the pathetic way finding and the "PLEASE GATHER YOUR PARTY, PLEASE GATHER YOUR PARTY, PLEASE GATHER YOUR PARTY."

• Party members didn't require such huge amounts of micromanagement that acceding control to scripted AI was deemed necessary by devs.

• This was because your "party members" were useless hucks of shit that just drained your xp, accasionally you used them to cast a spell you didn't have or pick a lock if you couldn't... awesome stuff!

• There were more than a dozen different enemy types.

• No there were 4. Undead, dragon, mage and non-mage. The tactics only differed mildly for these 4 situational enemy types.

• Spells and abilities were diverse, the range of their effects leading to variation between fights.
• Positioning played a role in more than it's relation to AoE spells or abilities.

• What other role did positioning play??? The spell effects were vast, but there was only one best spell for the 4 different enemy types... I'm not saying you couldn't use the other spells if you wanted, but there was no need to cast "friends" "open lock" and about 60 other spells.

The other stuff you go on about, hand crafted maps =DDDD was only because of the limitations of their crusty 2D engine. The items and level scaling... sure I'll give you that one, level scaling sucks balls.

 

[Lagole Gon]

Sure it will, especially if you exploit the fog of war to lure them in one by one. Unlike IWD, BG never implemented calls for help unless you're using a fan-made mod.

Are we talking about AI exploits now?

These enemies are optional, but then again, most of them are. Because this is a proper cRPG.

A lot of enemies in DA:O are optional as well.

Doesn't even compare. Technically everyone in SoA is an optional enemy

BTW can you even run away from random encounters? (srsly, I don't remember)

When have fighters ever been a bigger threat than a mage in the middle of spellcasting in AD&D?

When you are buffed against crowd control - or whatever crap they prioritize - you can ignore them for a precious two or three turns.

You actually can keep killing the cloaked wizards until they agree to stop going after you.

Yes. And that's good stuff. Bribe them/kill them/avoid them - choices! Fun! DAII could use something like this with Templars.

 

[Dreaad]

Yes. And that's good stuff. Bribe them/kill them/avoid them - choices! Fun! DAII could use something like this with Templars.

You can do this.... all the way through Dragon Age 2.... No you can't avoid killing Merebeth at the end of the game no more than you can avoid killing Irenicus.

In fact apart from merebeth there is only one other time in the entire game that you have to kill true templars, if they are possessed by demons it makes sense to kill them.

 

[Lagole Gon]

Yes. And that's good stuff. Bribe them/kill them/avoid them - choices! Fun! DAII could use something like this with Templars.

You can do this.... all the way through Dragon Age 2.... No you can't avoid killing Merebeth at the end of the game no more than you can avoid killing Irenicus.

In fact apart from merebeth there is only one other time in the entire game that you have to kill true templars, if they are possessed by demons it makes sense to kill them.

...

Who the fuck cares?! (it's not even true - Anders quest, lol)

My point is:
DAII and SoA have major cities with ban on rogue mages:
DAII - ban exists only in story. Popamole banal bullshit.
SoA - ban exists also in gameplay. It creates meaningful choices, possibly fun battles, rainbows and shit. Small but cool thing.