So, what is so enticing about the Elder Scrolls lore?

[SCO]

The ability to run to towns or soldier patrols for protection if attacked by bandits or wild animals.

Morrowind had this, too.

With a mod.

Ultima 7 had the others (but it was scripted).

 

[DraQ]

When I first played Morrowind a few years ago, I had never heard of the Elder Scrolls and didn't know squat about the lore. Though the lack of gameplay turned me off after some time, I really enjoyed discovering Vvardenfell and the lore - and that's why I come back every 2-3 years to the game for another playthrough (which, needless to say, I never finish). And yet, when you think about it, the ES lore is fucking cheap. It's both a rip-off - with the Imperials being pure copies of the Romans

Except they are Romans descending from Norse, dwelling in tropics and with visible elvish and Wapanese (Akaviri) influences, so the resemblance mostly boils down to nomenclature, legions and vast cosmopolitan empire.

and full of boringbanalshit ideas with the usual elves

Which ones are the usual?
Exclusively carnivorous, canibalistic wood elves?
Vaguely Mesopotamian, steampunk dwarf elves?
High elves with their extremely rigid and codified society and eugenics induced 90% infanticide rate?
Dunmer?

reptile-people from the swamps

Reptile people from frozen wastes make little sense.

nigga people

Almost as cliched as pink people.

polymorphic furries with forms tied to when they were born during lunar cycle

Fix'd.

Smart trolling is welcomed too.

DraQ, please forgive me

But the trolling in the OP is weak.


NEVAR!1

Lore in ES is shit.
It's all generic Tolkienesque anglo fag shit
good-vs-eeebil!

Oh, I should add that I love the vibe I get off necromancy in the game. They did a great job (especially in morrowind and oblivion) of making them feel like they are despicable, disturbed individuals working with corpses

Umm... There is no single blanket stereotype for necromancers in TES.

Sure, most necromancers are pretty nasty types, as you'd expect of people obtaining corpses using criminal or morally disagreeable ways (like forceful disruption of vital functions in living subjects), but just being necromancer doesn't automatically make you a nasty fuck in TES. It isn't even illegal in most provinces provided you don't disturb the peace and obtain your corpses from legitimate sources (you can apply for deceased/executed criminals or have someone donate their body).

I played Oblivion for at least 20 hours and don't recall anything about lore.

Monstly because almost all books are (censored) copies from Morrowind and Daggerfall. The little that has been added is full of contradictions and conflicts with the older lore.

And with themselves.

Really? I think it's more like inability of the post-Morrowind Bethesda or laziness.

It has to run on an XBox 360, yes. So? If the area is a forest or a jungle makes no big difference. Since it uses a cell-loading system, it doesn't matter how many cities or towns are in the world, so they might as well have increased the population density. All the small details like farms and small villages that Morrowind had are missing in Oblivion. The city could've been much larger and more Venice-like, as the previous lorebooks said - heck, Assassin's Creed 2 runs on an XBox 360, too, and it has the actual city of Venice with all its canals and pretty impressive size in the game. Also, the fact that there are no politics and faction interactions whatsoever is just laziness of the writers, nothing else.

I think MM meant that his mind is shittily designed and restricted due to having to be able to run on a console. It suddenly makes sense now.

I felt like I was talking to my 4 year old niece - the same well thought out arguments.

I'm sorry, did I actually make an argument? I thought I was just lolling at your post, which I at first presumed was written as a tongue-in-cheek joke. You see, it's not often someone picks out RAI of Oblivion - possibly the single greatest contributing factor to the game's overall over-9000 level of derp - as being advantageous over static NPC behaviors of Morrowind.

Ah, so you can make arguments?
So how is MW static NPC behaviour advantageous? That they are easier to find? That they don't have accidents and die on you?

That passive passivity is less conspicuous and thus less immersion-breaking than retarded activity or some other act of active retardation.

You don't really notice that the characters are merely just standing or walking about all the time unless you stop and take a look, on the other hand it takes but a momentary contact to experience the full force of derp if you meet imperial foresters killing each other over a handful of venison or overhear conversation about benefits of everyone knowing how to pick locks.

The latter may also cause severe physical brain damage so I advise against launching oblivious just to see what DraQ is talking about.

The faction system is similar in both Morrowind and oblivious from technical PoV, and oblivious doesn't use it to any appreciable effect anyway despite technically using it to handle stuff previously handled by more case-by-case scripting.
Other than that the only improvements are that NPCs sleep and move around more and that they don't get stuck on protruding elements of vegetation as often as in Morrowind. They are still >10 years behind schedule when it comes to combat AI, but are also encumbered with brand new kind of profound mental retardation in non-combat situations.

To the point, though (regarding pre-derp lore, so discounting anything from oblivious onwards):

TES lore is in character - no word of god, but heaps of conflicting, fallible sources pushed by groups with their own agendas.

TES world is not kitchensink - unlike typical D&D settings you don't have shit squeezed in just because retards want ninjas or Aztecs.

TES world has few non-PC sapient races - there are no countless species of savages too dumb to avoid jumping on players' sword, but somehow persisting among much more civilized and organized groups that should either annihilate or assimilate them. In particular, on Vvardenfell the number of non-PC sapient species native to the material plane equals zero.

TES world is non-generic - even seemingly familiar stuff gets strange twists and there is plenty of non-familiar stuff as well.

TES worldbuilding is multilayered - you can dig pretty deep and find new stuff.

TES world has no moral absolutes - shades of grey are the very least you can count on.

There is a lot of intrigue and politics in TES universe.

TES world has good amount of internal logic.

Due to setting's history (it started out as cheap D&D knockoff, then gradually mutated into something actually interesting and unique), combined with exclusively in-character sources, it developed particular organic kind of consistency that characterizes things like scientific knowledge, real-life history and such stuff - it's very robust and can accommodate small changes without taking visible damage which is often the case of engineered settings that fall apart all too easily. It took oblivious to blow a hole in TES lore.

Metaphysics is kind of cool.

I have a follow up question.

In what ways has Elder Scrolls: Oblvion improved on the lore, or changed it?

Oblivion has improved on the previously existing lore in following ways:

 

[Mastermind]

Umm... There is no single blanket stereotype for necromancers in TES.

Sure, most necromancers are pretty nasty types, as you'd expect of people obtaining corpses using criminal or morally disagreeable ways (like forceful disruption of vital functions in living subjects), but just being necromancer doesn't automatically make you a nasty fuck in TES. It isn't even illegal in most provinces provided you don't disturb the peace and obtain your corpses from legitimate sources (you can apply for deceased/executed criminals or have someone donate their body).

Well, first I'd consider people to be the pretty nasty type if they are reanimating corpses regardless of how they obtain them. Like a mortician gushing over how pretty the last corpse they dressed up looks. Not necessarily evil, but sick and disturbed nevertheless.

Second, I guess it depends on the meaning of the word "necromancer". I don't really think of dunmer cleric types who use undead to defend ancestral tombs as necromancers, or even the player character, even though you have a wild array of undead summons available. I was mostly thinking of the types who build their life/career around the practice.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Speaking of that

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Leyaw ... mmendation

After the quest, Mages Guild members will start saying "Kalthar tried to ruin the Leyawiin guild. Just goes to show you can't trust a Necromancer, even if he claims to be 'reformed.'"

The funny thing is that Kalthar gives a reasonable explanation before attacking (something like "The stone has no use for anyone but Dagail, so I was going to give it back after she stepped down; I just don't want an insane old woman in charge of the guild. Agata is the one that actually solves problems, anyway. Why are you trying to ruin my plan?"), and he only attacks you because he assumes you were gonna attack him anyway, if the journal entry is any indication ("I've defeated Kalthar, who was attempting to manipulate Dagail. I need to give her this information immediately.")

edit:

imperial foresters killing each other over a handful of venison

Actually it's over a handful of arrows to the back of the head, but same thing

TES world is not kitchensink - unlike typical D&D settings you don't have shit squeezed in just because retards want ninjas or Aztecs.

Akavir?

 

[jancobblepot]

Speaking of that

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Leyaw ... mmendation

After the quest, Mages Guild members will start saying "Kalthar tried to ruin the Leyawiin guild. Just goes to show you can't trust a Necromancer, even if he claims to be 'reformed.'"

The funny thing is that Kalthar gives a reasonable explanation before attacking (something like "The stone has no use for anyone but Dagail, so I was going to give it back after she stepped down; I just don't want an insane old woman in charge of the guild. Agata is the one that actually solves problems, anyway. Why are you trying to ruin my plan?"), and he only attacks you because he assumes you were gonna attack him anyway, if the journal entry is any indication ("I've defeated Kalthar, who was attempting to manipulate Dagail. I need to give her this information immediately.")

Funny... I finished that quest and uninstalled.

 

[DraQ]

Well, first I'd consider people to be the pretty nasty type if they are reanimating corpses regardless of how they obtain them.

They used to say the same about people cutting up corpses as well.

There are many legitimate and non-malicious uses for necromancy. And that's without even considering Dunmer highly ritualized brand of "it's totally not necromancy, honest".
Forensics, historical research, possibly a lot of insight can be gained about the nature of life and death as well and so on.

 

[Daemongar]

Typical RPG's use 100% of the same tired lore. TES uses about 50% of that lore. Problems with TES lore can be directed at damn near any rpg, even our beloved PS:T, but at least TES put a slant on it and developed it a bit.

 

[.Sigurd]

What's keeping a Morrowind barbarian from buying training one magical skill to 90 and two to 35? Sure, the Oblivion barbarian won't have anyone pestering him with skill requirements, but the Morrowind one just needs to walk around the guild hall and train a skill or two.

Don't matter if the barbarian use his magicals skills or not, the fact is that if he has 90 points in it proves that he knows how to use magic. In Oblivion the barbarian could be a completely retarded with 0 INT and no magical skills and still be the arch-mage of the MG.

Vaguely Mesopotamian, steampunk dwarf elves?

They are not dwarves goddammit! They are not even short!

 

[Lord Chambers]

You could take a look on a nice article called the metaphysics of Morrowind and see if it clicks with you.

http://fallingawkwardly.wordpress.com/2 ... nd-part-1/

Thanks for the link, I really dug it.

 

[thursdayschild]

Reptiles with breasts.

 

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

Reptiles with breasts.

Someone obviously collected copies of the Lusty Argonian Maid.

 

[DraQ]

Reptiles with breasts.

Present in Daggerfall, inclined in Morrowind.

 

[Excommunicator]

Just curious: what is the in-world explanation for them having breasts?

 

[FatCat]

Just curious: what is the in-world explanation for them having breasts?

furry fan-service

 

[hakuroshi]

Argonians aren't furry

I don't remember anything about breasts specifically, but in-game books treat argonians as some form of humans, different from men or mer, but still possible to have offspring though none were documented.

Also much about argonians depends on Hist which is also very unclear.

 

[hoverdog]

Just curious: what is the in-world explanation for them having breasts?

DraQ fan-service

fixed.

 

[abnaxus]

After much analysis of living specimens, the Council long ago determined that all "races" of elves and humans may mate with each other and bear fertile offspring. Generally the offspring bear the racial traits of the mother, though some traces of the father's race may also be present. It is less clear whether the Argonians and Khajiit are interfertile with both humans and elves. Though there have been many reports throughout the Eras of children from these unions, as well as stories of unions with daedra, there have been no well documented offspring. Khajiit differ from humans and elves not only their skeletal and dermal physiology -- the “fur” that covers their bodies -- but their metabolism and digestion as well. Argonians, like the dreugh, appear to be a semi-aquatic troglophile form of humans, though it is by no means clear whether the Argonians should be classified with dreugh, men, mer, or (in this author's opinion), certain tree-dwelling lizards in Black Marsh.

The reproductive biology of orcs is at present not well understood, and the same is true of goblins, trolls, harpies, dreugh, tsaesci, imga, various daedra and many others. Certainly, there have been cases of intercourse between these "races," generally in the nature of rape or magickal seduction, but there have been no documented cases of pregnancy. Still the interfertility of these creatures and the civilized hominids has yet to be empirically established or refuted, likely due to the deep cultural differences. Surely any normal Bosmer or Breton impregnated by an orc would keep that shame to herself, and there's no reason to suppose that an orc maiden impregnated by a human would not be likewise ostracized by her society. Regrettably, our oaths as healers keep us from forcing a coupling to satisfy our scientific knowledge. We do know, however, that the sload of Thras are hermaphrodites in their youth and later reabsorb their reproductive organs once they are old enough to move about on land. It can be safely assumed that they are not interfertile with men or mer.

One might further wonder whether the proper classification of these same “races,” to use the imprecise but useful term, should be made from the assumption of a common heritage and the differences between them have arisen from magickal experimentation, the manipulations of the so-called "Earth Bones," or from gradual changes from one generation to the next.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Just curious: what is the in-world explanation for them having breasts?

Same reasosn they got their humanoid feet back - no real reason, just a retcon.

 

[DraQ]

Just curious: what is the in-world explanation for them having breasts?

DraQ fan-service

failed.

Fixed.

In DraQ's world reptiles and boobs don't mix.

Just curious: what is the in-world explanation for them having breasts?

Same reasosn they got their humanoid feet back - no real reason, just a retcon.

It's not as much of a retcon as model reuse due to terminal laziness.
We're lucky men don't have boobs in oblivious as this would cut the amount of character models by half again - from 2 to 1.

As for Daggerfall, I blame meh level art direction.

 

[.Sigurd]

Just curious: what is the in-world explanation for them having breasts?

Same reasosn they got their humanoid feet back - no real reason, just a retcon.

Not really. It depends on how much they lick the Hist. The more they lick during their rite of passage of childhood to adulthood more human-like they are. The ritual was described in the IRL book "The Infernal City".

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Yes, retcons are sometimes followed by excuses too.

 

[.Sigurd]

Yes, retcons are sometimes followed by excuses too.

There's also 16 different species of khajiit and other 17 sub-species.

 

[JarlFrank]

Wasn't it pretty much official that Khajiit in Daggerfall were just a different sub-species of Khajiit (basically the most human-like one which only has a tail but other than that looks like a human) than the ones in Morrowind?

While the ones in Oblivion were supposed to be the same as in Morrowind, yet their bodies looked pretty much like retextured humans.
Just like Argonians.
Because Oblivion didn't bother with making anything properly, since it was probably the most lazily designed game of all time.

 

[Luzur]

Wasn't it pretty much official that Khajiit in Daggerfall were just a different sub-species of Khajiit (basically the most human-like one which only has a tail but other than that looks like a human) than the ones in Morrowind?

While the ones in Oblivion were supposed to be the same as in Morrowind, yet their bodies looked pretty much like retextured humans.
Just like Argonians.
Because Oblivion didn't bother with making anything properly, since it was probably the most lazily designed game of all time.

well the Khajiit in Daggerfall are Ohmes-raht, kinda like anime cat-girls, humans with cat ears and tails and very light fur, in Arena they used Ohmes (people that tattoo their faces to look like cats) while Morrowind incorporated Suthay-raht, which are the most common Khajiit race in Tamriel.

Oblivion used Suthay-raht too, but suddenly they no longer used cat legs. this was explained away with being different sub-species of Suthay-raht, but then we should still have seen the normal cat-legged Suthay-raht too on the streets of the Imperial cities.

now for Skyrim as AFAIK they will reuse this new human-legged Suthay-raht, so i guess its pretty much cemented in the race lore by now, or will be in due time.

 

[JarlFrank]

now for Skyrim as AFAIK they will reuse this new human-legged Suthay-raht, so i guess its pretty much cemented in the race lore by now, or will be in due time.

Eh, anything added to the lore with Oblivion and anything that comes after is pretty much just retconning dev laziness and/or adding cool shit that kiddies will like.

For me, elder scrolls lore stopped with Morrowind and hasn't been expanded on ever since. Oblivion is just bad fanfiction, and Skyrim looks to be the same.