Stealth gaming,has it peaked?

[adrix89]

I don't think you can do much with stealth games other then better AI with more environmental awareness. Thief 1-2 was really the peak.

Mark of the Ninja was the only one that had something interesting to it.
Dishonored also with stealth+magic and the new Deus Ex with stealth + magic science!

 

[dunno lah]

Well, at least it makes perfect sense in the Malaysian and Mideast missions.

 

[Alienman]

Splinter Cell Blacklist had some pretty fun stealth, and on the harder difficulties the enemy was pretty relentless in searching for you. You die pretty quick in a firefight. You can even move bodies in this one

 

[Infinitum]

What, no-one is going to mention Invisible, Inc? Best stealth-mechanics ever imo, especially the way they did away with combat wholesale and the escalation mechanics discouraging picking off guards/loitering.

 

[HansDampf]

Stealth gaming will peak once someone realizes that emphasis on stealth and ability to silently incapacitate patrols without the remaining ones getting suspicious don't synergize.
Same with emphasis on non-violence and unlimited, reliable non-lethal takedowns.

IIRC one of the unique features of Desperados was that the AI would get suspicious if people disappeared. Too bad the rest of the game was pretty bland.

Yes, I remember this from when I replayed it a few years ago. Some guards will periodically check on other guards, and when someone is missing the guard will run around looking for him and eventually sound alarm. Are there any 3D (FPS) stealth games with AI that does this or similar stuff like noticing opened doors?

 

[Beowulf]

Sadly, the AI is the are in which the games hasn't progressed that much. And some modern games cannot even achieve what games a decade prior did.

To answer your question - Guards in MGSV notice they comrade missing. They report it to the command and conduct a brief search, which they quickly abandon.
For all the accusations of being popamole shit, the games has a lot of good features regarding player and environment/enemy interaction. I think I will try this hardcore mod for some missions on one of those long winter evenings.

I can't think of any other right now.
In some shooters the AI reacts to players flash-light. But I can't remember if in any game the AI reacted to players shadow in their view - in FEAR, or The Dark Mod perhaps?

 

[7h30n]

Stealth gaming will peak once someone realizes that emphasis on stealth and ability to silently incapacitate patrols without the remaining ones getting suspicious don't synergize.
Same with emphasis on non-violence and unlimited, reliable non-lethal takedowns.

IIRC one of the unique features of Desperados was that the AI would get suspicious if people disappeared. Too bad the rest of the game was pretty bland.

Yes, I remember this from when I replayed it a few years ago. Some guards will periodically check on other guards, and when someone is missing the guard will run around looking for him and eventually sound alarm. Are there any 3D (FPS) stealth games with AI that does this or similar stuff like noticing opened doors?

Splinter Cell: Blacklist does that, though I don't know if that is done on difficulties below the hardest (it's called Purist or smth like that). I find the AI in that game to be a significant step up in games and the best in any stealth game so far. (Again, speaking of highest difficulty. I also haven't played MGS: Phantom Pain yet.) It's a shame it went unnoticed, but I guess that was bound to happen with all the streamlining (and easier difficulties?).
Just a couple of highlights. Guards have multiple vision cones similar to Thief and MGS3, peripheral, far focused vision, 6th sense (if you stay too close to their back) and some medium ranged. Each vision cone has different properties on what affects the detection (e.g. peripheral reacts to fast movement but not so much visiblity itself). Overlapping patrols will notice the other guard missing and look to investigate and as far as I noticed, they never return to their regular state. There are couple of instances where the guards are talking and if you take one out (invisibly), the other will notice. Doors and windows which are not in the state they were before (opened/closed) are always noticed and investigated. Guards also use flashlights to good effect by peeking around corners, windows etc.

You can find more details here:
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1020195/Modeling-AI-Perception-and-Awareness

That link and various Thief post mortems (like this one http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131297/building_an_ai_sensory_system_.php) or various talks from Paul Neurath, Doug Church, Smith guys are required reading for any stealth game AI designer, IMO. Perhaps I ought to upload those talks in one place coz I have a folder full of them. I find it fascinating how advanced Thief AI was (and still is) and used as a basis for Blacklist. What a shame it wasn't advertised more (or that the game wasn't as good as Thief).

 

[Beowulf]

You are tempting me to buy Blacklist. But on the other hand ... Ubishit.

 

[sullynathan]

Splinter Cell: Blacklist does that, though I don't know if that is done on difficulties below the hardest (it's called Purist or smth like that). I find the AI in that game to be a significant step up in games and the best in any stealth game so far. (Again, speaking of highest difficulty. I also haven't played MGS: Phantom Pain yet.) It's a shame it went unnoticed, but I guess that was bound to happen with all the streamlining (and easier difficulties?).
Just a couple of highlights. Guards have multiple vision cones similar to Thief and MGS3, peripheral, far focused vision, 6th sense (if you stay too close to their back) and some medium ranged. Each vision cone has different properties on what affects the detection (e.g. peripheral reacts to fast movement but not so much visiblity itself). Overlapping patrols will notice the other guard missing and look to investigate and as far as I noticed, they never return to their regular state. There are couple of instances where the guards are talking and if you take one out (invisibly), the other will notice. Doors and windows which are not in the state they were before (opened/closed) are always noticed and investigated. Guards also use flashlights to good effect by peeking around corners, windows etc.

Chaos theory does most of this like guards checking for windows, or switches that have been used and having multiple vision cones, noticing people get shot that are close enough to them even if you used a silencer. Unfortunately from what I played, it doesn't seem like there's overlapping patrols except certain missions, and guards do return to regular state after checking out a problem.
Blacklist has gotten a lot of hate and I read that the newer Splinter Cells sold less than the old ones but it is good to hear that it has at least improved something in the series after all these years.

 

[7h30n]

You are tempting me to buy Blacklist. But on the other hand ... Ubishit.

Yeah... and the game is such a mixed bag of everything. A friend gifted it to me so we could play coop and I was pleasently surprised. Coop levels are really good and challenging. The single player campaign can be fun, but the story (and main voice actor) are so terrible and in your face it really gets in the way. Oh and there are (naturally) "story" linear missions which make it really painful. The worst thing, you can see the potential of this being the best Splinter Cell game (and among the best of stealth games), yet it is ruined with executive meddling. Chaos Theory is still the best in the series.

Of all the new stealth games, I recommend Invisible Inc.

 

[DraQ]

DraQ have you played the Splinter Cell games...?

TPP stealth, contemporary, ubishit.
I don't plan to.

unless you mean for gameplay reasons.

I mean for gameplay syncing with fluff reasons.
Stealth implies some combination of delicate situation and not having sufficient power to succeed in direct confrontation.
Stealth game not reflecting it mechanically is like combat game with no way to get hurt.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

DraQ
Limiting yourself to only FPS stealth games practically means playing only Thief 1&2. If you want a stealth game where direct confrontation is pointless you might want to try older MGS titles. You can stealthily take out enemies like in other stealth games but there is no cleaning room after room knocking out everyone in your way like some pacifist horror creature, because the guards will just respawn after you leave and return to a particular location. That makes evasion a more preferable choice.

 

[DraQ]

TPP stealth is a cheat.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

TPP stealth is a cheat.

Not really that much different in practice than having a built-in radar in HR or being able to lean without worry in Dishonored, Chaos Theory (best Splinter Cell game) still manages to be much more challenging than either despite the 3d person perspective. Arguably the best stealth game ever made outside Thief 1/2.

 

[DraQ]

Not really that much different in practice than having a built-in radar in HR or being able to lean without worry in Dishonored

Neither of which is serviceable in stealth mode.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Neither of which is serviceable in stealth mode.

Not sure I follow, both help tremendously when trying to sneak around as you know the positions of the enemies.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

What, no-one is going to mention Invisible, Inc? Best stealth-mechanics ever imo, especially the way they did away with combat wholesale and the escalation mechanics discouraging picking off guards/loitering.

Invisible Inc was great, but turn-based stealth isn't really stealth.

 

[sullynathan]

DraQ have you played the Splinter Cell games...?

TPP stealth, contemporary, ubishit.
I don't plan to.

unless you mean for gameplay reasons.

I mean for gameplay syncing with fluff reasons.
Stealth implies some combination of delicate situation and not having sufficient power to succeed in direct confrontation.
Stealth game not reflecting it mechanically is like combat game with no way to get hurt.

Nigga, go play chaos theory. It was back when Ubisoft was good.

 

[pippin]

The last stealth game I felt happy with was Mark of the Ninja. It's not really hard but it does its job. I was raised on Thief 1 so I'm a bit biased, but I gotta say many games include stuff I'd love to see in a stealth game, but none of them have implemented it all at once.

 

[Ash]

TPP stealth is fine. FP is generally superior (as it is for many game genres), but games designed around the use of TPP can still be great.

Anyhow, Stealth gaming peaked with the very first set of 3D stealth games (Thief, Tenchu, MGS, Deus Ex, Syphon Filter, Hitman etc) and it's been mostly decline since then, with the occasional worthy game here and there. At least in regards to AAA games. There's been a few notable stealth indies.

In regards to AAA, stealth has devolved into awesome button takedowns, infinite see through walls batman vision and invisibility on demand. Usual crap that plagues most games these days like banal level design, objective markers, and a generally easy game experience overall. I don't think I've seen AAA game where getting spotted meant instant game over since the 90s. Now that created some real tense and immersive sneaking.

but I gotta say many games include stuff I'd love to see in a stealth game, but none of them have implemented it all at once.

Such as?

 

[sullynathan]

TPP stealth is fine. FP is generally superior (as it is for many game genres), but games designed around the use of TPP can still be great.

Anyhow, Stealth gaming peaked with the very first set of 3D stealth games (Thief, Tenchu, MGS, Deus Ex, Syphon Filter, Hitman etc) and it's been mostly decline since then, with the occasional worthy game here and there. At least in regards to AAA games. There's been a few notable stealth indies.

In regards to AAA, stealth has devolved into awesome button takedowns, infinite see through walls batman vision and invisibility on demand. Usual crap that plagues most games these days like banal level design, objective markers, and a generally easy game experience overall. I don't think I've seen AAA game where getting spotted meant instant game over since the 90s. Now that created some real tense and immersive sneaking.

but I gotta say many games include stuff I'd love to see in a stealth game, but none of them have implemented it all at once.

Such as?

what do you think about splinter cell then? Certain missions have game over for getting spotted, granted you can just restart save.

 

[Dev_Anj]

I don't think I've seen AAA game where getting spotted meant instant game over since the 90s. Now that created some real tense and immersive sneaking.

Actually I dislike that, I like having to deal with the consequences of being spotted and this just cuts out the opportunity to do that. I've found that can make for quite tense gameplay too, especially if the enemies are designed to aggressively search for you after you've been found. This mechanic can make sense in some contexts but I would largely prefer not having it, though I know that for most stealth games people usually reload the moment they're spotted.

 

[Ash]

There was never a stealth game where getting spotted always meant a game over as far as I am aware. There was usually just a level or two with this rule which added diversity and was really tense.

what do you think about splinter cell then?

One of few renowned stealth series I never gave much a chance. Don't know why that is, I just didn't take to it. This was a long time ago now, I must have been about 16. It was probably around the time I fell madly in love with Deus Ex so probably wanted more from my game except sneaking, but of course I came to realize games with a narrower focus can achieve their goals more feasibly.
I did try Conviction a couple years back and that just pissed me off because it was absolute shit, but I'm aware Chaos Theory is meant to be the best (and is an actual stealth game, unlike that popamole shit).

Despite playing most of the good stealth games out there I do prefer RPG\Action\shooting games. That's probably partly because there isn't a lot of stealth games compared to RPGs and action games though.

Special mention to the first Manhunt. Now that was an interesting stealth game.

 

[Turtle-Zone 3000]

I figure that if we're to have harsher consequences in mission we oughta have info that we can gather in a sorta scoping phase prior to the mission.
If you wanted to integrate more RPG elements like stats this would be the prime area to do it.
Also level design wise depending on the location we oughta have more starting points to access the main area.
And we oughta have more locations fleshed out rather than mere corridors.

 

[Dev_Anj]

Special mention to the first Manhunt. Now that was an interesting stealth game.

Interesting that you mention Manhunt being interesting and post that gif, while you rant about HR and MD's scripted takedowns. :p

(And before you point this out; yes I know that the context is different, I just found the seeming contradiction hilarious)