Taking a trip down memory lane

[Binary]

It's Ultimas 4/6/7/Underworld that get the praise. Oh Ultimas 1-2-3 were pretty good for their time, but better games came after as Lord British always managed to improve the quality. That stopped with Ultima 7 (part 2) unfortunately.

You missed Ultima 5 and Serpent's Isle is still one of the best CRPGs that exist. Only with U8 does the degeneration of the series begin - though U8 is still playworthy.

I did mention Ultima 7 part 2 above - that's Serpent Isle

Ultima 5 never got the same level of praise as U4 or U7. It is also the hardest of all the Ultimas, so it's not generally recommended but for the "hardcore" RPG crowd

 

[Jasede]

Dark Hearts of Uukrul is good, but "nice graphics" is exaggerated.

The game has THE best puzzles though. Try playing it without a guide, though you won't have time for that since I bet you'll be stuck with the WONDERFUL crossword maze for a week. Man was that awesome.

 

[DaveO]

I'm amazed that somebody remember's SSI's 8-bit Wizard's Crown and Eternal Dagger. I've played both, with Dagger as the better one in my opinion. Tacitical combat is the reason to play thru both games, although the AI is not the smartest in the world. And I dare anybody to defeat Anawt at the end of Eternal Dagger.

 

[Carrie Underwood]

Man, Deathlord was both a work of art and a device of torture. I wrote about it a long while back:

http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=14380&highlight=deathlord

Great write-up. It looks like I'll definitely have to play that one. It sounds like the entire game was a forced Iron Man mode. Was there any kind of traps skill that you could use to avoid the death traps?

Another Origin game that almost no one but me liked was Moebius and also its sequel Windwalker. The first game was very wierd- it was tiled based (it had nice artwork considering the weak graphics), you were this ninja-dude who had to travel through various planes and defeat the ultimate warlord badguy. The game was really more like a roguelike in some ways than a RPG. When you encountered someone, you had to go into a karateka-style action sequence fight with your bare hands or a sword. But you could also throw ninja stars at people on the worldmap and swing your weapon at them and sometimes cut them down without an encounter. Unfortunately, the game does not really have char dev options although it does have stats and inventory. It also had a very active environment- the map featured weather, a day night cycle, water with currents, and so on, and it used all of these elements in its puzzles. There was one cool part where you had to catch a demon, but you could only do it right when the sun is rising, otherwise it would kick your ass and give you a nasty curse.

I plan on covering both games, but had no idea what they were about. Have you thought about doing some mini let's play / review write ups? It sounds like you have good experience with alot of these.

Windwalker had most of the elements of the first game, but more in-depth NPC interaction and other RPG elements. In this game, there is a part where you actually become a Buddhist (not actually called that) monk by living in a monastery for a couple of days. Doesn't sound like fun, but I have yet to see anything like it in another game. It had a lot of neat puzzles and the like based on Chinese religion and folklore (the first game being set in some kind of pseudo-Japan-like setting). The game did poorly in the market, however, because it had C64/Apple graphics at a time when the Amiga and VGA graphics games had been on the market for at least a couple of years... I think Origin dumped it and other games (Space Rogue, for instance) on the market when it switched to developing for other systems. These two games were fun for me, but I can't promise anyone else will like them.

What exactly do you do when living in that monastery? It sounds like the purest example of "role playing" to be had, but if it just involves letting your character stand around while you leave the computer and go do something else... well, there's no point then. Does it have you read books and manage food/water while you're in seclusion?

Chefe, I dig the mini Lets Play/reviews. Keep 'em coming. Are you doing them chronologically?

I did try to warn you about the Ultima 1-3. The next two are still pretty painful, but graphically and character creation get a big kick in the ass. The story becomes much more like a bad LSD trip too.

It's been awhile since I played the first 5 Wizardries, but I'd have to imagine they haven't aged very well. They're straight ahead dungeon crawlers that are difficult. I'd only recommend playing them so you can post up your thoughts for the lulz.

I'm doing them in a very loose chronological order. As regard to series, I will be doing them in order (Wiz 1, then 2, then 3, etc.). As for other series, I'll try to keep it in the same time frame (I won't play U4 then jump to Arx Fatalis, for example). I'm counting the spin-off of UU as a seperate series that I will probably cover after U5.

For the early Wizardries and M&M games, and others that require you to pull out graph paper, I'm going to play them only briefly, but try to get as much information as I can. I won't be pulling out any graph paper to plot dungeons - sorry purests.

If you want to start with classics START FROM THE BEGINNING

1979: Akalabeth and Temple of Apshai

GO!

I'm playing Ultima I. It's pretty much the same thing.

You FAIL at RPGs.

One is a fantasy dungeon crawler
Another is a fantasy/sci-fi explorable RPG

I've never played Akalabeth. I'm only going on what Richard Garriott said. So, if I fail at RPGs by saying that, then he too fails at them.

Now that I've delivered a boatload of FAIL, I'm heading out of this topic

Good riddance.

 

[MisterStone]

Man, Deathlord was both a work of art and a device of torture. I wrote about it a long while back:

http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=14380&highlight=deathlord

Great write-up. It looks like I'll definitely have to play that one. It sounds like the entire game was a forced Iron Man mode. Was there any kind of traps skill that you could use to avoid the death traps?

It's been too long, so I can't remember. I know that there was at least one thief class (Yakuza or something- yeah, it was a cheap cash-in on the 1980s fad for Ninjas n Samurais) which could pick locks. Maybe he could search for traps. The game had tons and tons of traps and loved to do shit like drop your party into pits of acid, etc.

If you play the game on an Apple Emulator or the like you can probably just RAM image as you go along and refresh back to your previous spot if necessary.

What exactly do you do when living in that monastery? It sounds like the purest example of "role playing" to be had, but if it just involves letting your character stand around while you leave the computer and go do something else... well, there's no point then. Does it have you read books and manage food/water while you're in seclusion?

I don't remember exactly... I think that you just had to follow the other monks around their daily routine, meditate for a little while, maybe read a couple of things. It wasn't really very complicated, and I think it was more about adding atmosphere and even education people about Buddhism or something... I think maybe I should give this game another shot. Maybe I really should do a let's play. Heheheh.

 

[Flux_Capacitor]

Man, Deathlord was both a work of art and a device of torture. I wrote about it a long while back:

http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=14380&highlight=deathlord

Great write-up. It looks like I'll definitely have to play that one. It sounds like the entire game was a forced Iron Man mode. Was there any kind of traps skill that you could use to avoid the death traps?

It's been too long, so I can't remember. I know that there was at least one thief class (Yakuza or something- yeah, it was a cheap cash-in on the 1980s fad for Ninjas n Samurais) which could pick locks. Maybe he could search for traps. The game had tons and tons of traps and loved to do shit like drop your party into pits of acid, etc.

I don't recall there being traps that would actually insta-kill anyone in the party (although I believe there were some spells that monsters and characters could use in combat for that). However, there were a lot of situations where the party would simply take damage. You would often need to walk through fire and acid (some spells can negate this damage), swamps, falling into pits (trying to climb out could often damage the party, as well), doors and portcullises (someone would have to bash these to open them; again, damage), etc. Also, your spellcasters' power, the game's version of mana points, was fairly low and recovered slowly, so healing was pretty costly. And I don't remember there being any potions or magical items that could heal. You could rest, but then you'd have to worry about your food supply. There was quite a bit of fine resource management.

The classes were something like 4 fighter-types, 4 primary spellcasters, 4 thieves/multi-class thieves, and 4 multi-class fighter/spellcasters. Thieves were there mainly to picklocks on doors (so you didn't have to bash them). Besides pit traps, I'm pretty sure the only 'real' traps were on chests, but I don't recall anything too serious; maybe a little damage or possibly poison. You could also hide in the wilderness, and they may have been better at it than others. Its also possible they had a sort of constant auto-search, so they could find secret doors and pit traps without performing a manual search. I usually took a Ninja along, as they could insta-kill and gained a better AC as they gained levels, as well as being mediocre thieves.

What exactly do you do when living in that monastery? It sounds like the purest example of "role playing" to be had, but if it just involves letting your character stand around while you leave the computer and go do something else... well, there's no point then. Does it have you read books and manage food/water while you're in seclusion?

I don't remember exactly... I think that you just had to follow the other monks around their daily routine, meditate for a little while, maybe read a couple of things. It wasn't really very complicated, and I think it was more about adding atmosphere and even education people about Buddhism or something... I think maybe I should give this game another shot. Maybe I really should do a let's play. Heheheh.

I don't recall the exact specifics either, but along with following the monk around his monastery for a day, I believe you were also under a vow of silence.

 

[Carrie Underwood]

Chefe Reviews Wizardry I: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord

Manual and other stuff
http://www.tk421.net/wizardry/wiz1manual.shtml

So, this is Wizardry. Yes, it is a game that takes a long time to finish, but the mechanics are easily summed up. In the days of yesteryear, there was no space for things such as story and gameplay - you had either one or the other. In that light I present Wizardry I.

How does this game play? This grand ol' game that required weeks of work to complete and had you drawing out maps on grid paper. Well, it's based around a very simple premise. As you probably know, for all intents and purposes it is a pure DnD game on the computer, without the greasy and smelly nerds. You start off the game inside a castle, which is really just a series of menus. In fact, everything except walking around the psuedo-3D dungeon is all delivered through text. You can rest at the inn, heal and revive party members at the temple, trade at the post, and recruit new adventurers at the tavern. Before you can recruit new members, however, you need to make them (well, you can use the pre-mades, but what fun is that?). Remember, all this is done through text only. There is a good amount of armor and weaponry available, but there is no in-game way to tell what anything does or how powerful it is, not even spells. You need the manual.

Character creation is basic. You choose a name and a race, the latter of which determines your starting stats. You are then given a number of points to distribute. Each class requires a minimum number of points in a certain stat or stats, such as the Fighter requiring 11 strength. Once you reach this number, the class becomes available, and the availability of classes fluctuates based on your points. After you're done distributing, you simply choose the class you want out of the list that was generated by your previous stat choices. Ta da! You've made a character. Now you can go to the tavern and recruit that character. There's no character interaction in the game, so there is no charisma stat. Sorry, diplomats.

You can have a maximum of six people on a team, and the first the characters are the front line, and thus are the only ones who can attack with weapons, and they are also the only ones who can get hit! To use a spell you have to type in its name (which you can find out from going into your spell book), but you can only use it a certain number of times before you have to leave the dungeon (called the maze, and what I mean by this is that your spell points are reset every time you leave and re-enter). There are scrolls and potions you can use that are one-time-only, like you would expect. You gain new spells by gaining levels in the priest or mage classes. You can also change classes and retain already learned spells, which is kind of neat. The descriptions of the battle are displayed after each party member chooses his or her moves, so it is turn based. Kind of. I think that who goes first is determined by agility, but I'm not sure. If someone dies, you have to pay to have them resurrected. If everyone dies, you're booted back to the castle (where you start). You can add and remove party members any time you want to. To level up, you have to return to the Inn and have earned enough experience points.

Phew. That's alot. But that's Wizardry. The actual game consists of you going through the levels of a single dungeon, fighting monsters, and getting stuff. That's it. You walk through the maze, charting your course on graph paper, and run into hostiles. One of the cool things here is that you can run into friendlies which you can choose to either fight or leave alone, but unfortunately since there is no charisma or reputation it doesn't make any difference.

There is no sound except for the old bleeps and bloops that will only be flickers of static noise on modern computers. The graphics are okay. The menus are well organized and it's easy to find stuff, and they tell you what letters are used to access a choice by way of putting a paranthesis next to the first letter. The dungeon is a mass of black with white lines. There are lines in between representing the grid the dungeon is built on (I believe it's 20x20) so you can chart your course better, but there are no unique spots that you can use as in-game map markers, nor can you leave a breadcrumb trail of loot (all loot dropped disappears). The monster graphics are alright and feature some color.

I stopped playing this because I saw no point in continuing on. The story told in the manual is about some wizard that wants to destroy everything and you need to find some gem at the bottom of this maze. However, the actual game is really a glorified cartography test. No NPCs, no quests, no story. You fight and earn experience, but the real challenge is in mapping the damn place. There is no variation, and every hallway is exactly the same, and because of the wireframe you will have a very difficult time getting anywhere. I'm going to give it a 3/10. It can be fun in its own wierd way, but ultimately you'll feel like you're wasting your time (well, at least I did) because nothing resembling a story is delivered during the game, there are no NPCs, and there are no combat tactics.

 

[SlavemasterT]

Nice review, another game I don't regret missing. Maybe you could look for an old CRPG that actually halfway stands up to the test of time and would be decent to play today. Unless you're just really a masochist.

 

[Carrie Underwood]

I am a masochist, so I'm going to play all that I can get my masochistic hands on. Hopefully I'll discover a few that myself and others actually regret missing.

I'm going to skip Wizardry 2 and 3 because they seem to be the exact same thing as the first.

Although, there are some special messages I found in Wiz2:

 

[FrancoTAU]

These 2 games were dated by 1985.

Chefe, was Wizardry 1 hard at all? I can't remember if they started out hard or just became that way half way through the series.

 

[Carrie Underwood]

It's hard in the same way that World of Warcraft is hard. If you're below the enemy level, you'll probably die quickly. If you're above the enemy level, you'll usually win. The only real difficulty you'll be facing is against tediousness.

Well, that's not entirely true. Like I said, 90% of the game rests upon your personal mapping skills. And since the dungon is so incredibly undetailed, existing as little more than white wireframe lines in a sea of black, it's difficult. I don't consider that real difficulty though as much as I consider it bad design. I mean, goddamn, at least fill in the walls with one color.

 

[Binary]

If you want to start with classics START FROM THE BEGINNING

1979: Akalabeth and Temple of Apshai

GO!

I'm playing Ultima I. It's pretty much the same thing.

You FAIL at RPGs.

One is a fantasy dungeon crawler
Another is a fantasy/sci-fi explorable RPG

I've never played Akalabeth. I'm only going on what Richard Garriott said. So, if I fail at RPGs by saying that, then he too fails at them.

Pic or it didn't happen. Er. I mean. Proof plz.

Now that I've delivered a boatload of FAIL, I'm heading out of this topic

Good riddance.

In the words of the classic latin philosopher Arnaldo Pretonegro: "I'll be back"

 

[Jasede]

Actually, mapping was really the high-point of playing Wizardry 1. I have some graph paper maps at home. It's hard to describe but there's something very fun about it. (Besides, you need to map in Wizardry 6 too, unless you have a good memory for dungeon layouts; and if you don't map in Wizardry 7 you're doomed, at least in Dane Tower and Halls of the Past.

I like this series, by the way. It should read "Productive Member".

 

[Carrie Underwood]

I have nothing against mapping, just not when the walls are basic wireframe. Maybe I was spoiled as a kid with the awesome graphics of Lode Runner on Apple II.

Chefe Reviews Wizardry IV - The Return of Werdna

Much to my disappointment, this game is really just Wizardry 1 - 3 without the experience points. You play as the bad guy from Wizardry 1, the wizard Werdna, the worst named villian in history, who wants to get his precious back. Everything is fixed, your class, your stats, everything. You can't go up in level, instead you can find greater monsters to summon by using pentagrams on the floor.

Unlike the first three Wizardry games, there's an in-game backstory when you start. You're also given text throughout the dungeon crawl to progress the story and enhance atmosphere. Unfortunately, most of the text is triggered to a square, and they don't delete themselves after they've been used, so every time you step on that square you will get the exact same message, which ends up being jarring and breaks what little immersion there is.

Battles are exactly the same as the first three Wizardry games, except, as I said, you can never become stronger and must rely on AI controlled monsters to do the fighting for you. Instead of the battle messages progressing at a steady pace so you can read them, like the previous games, the messages go by in an instant, so you have no idea what happened. The enemies can fall into two categories - incredibly easy or impossible. So you're not only at the mercy of your summons, you're also at the mercy of pure dumb luck.

The dungeons this time around are actually worse than the previous games in the series. Most of the time, there will be only one wall. If there is a right wall, there will not be a left, and vice versa (see the bottom right screenshot). Needless to say, this makes things a helluva lot more difficult. I don't know if they were supposed to represent big rooms or something, but having half the screen missing is not my idea of a good time. Obviously, graphics are identitcal to the previous games, except you have a colored floor tile in a few places which usually represents one of those text pop-ups.

This game is fucking horrible. Avoid at all costs. 1/10.

 

[Jasede]

These are amusing, continue. (And for the record, Wizardry IV is an amazingly great game, mostly because it ends up being the hardest RPG I know. I think the puzzles are harder than Dark Heart of Uukrul, and that's a mouthful.)

 

[Carrie Underwood]

Can you please enlighten me on why it is such a great game? Where are these puzzles you speak of? As of now, it's only hard because I can't see anything.

 

[Jasede]

Oh, well, for one, it's maybe the first game where you play the villain. Secondly, the labyrinths are incredibly challenging to map; the encounters sheer torture, and the puzzles - for example navigating a minefield, figuring out that Milwa thing at the start, getting the Grandmaster ending, solving the riddles as you progress, these kinds of things made it quite memorable. And well, mapping games was normal for the longest time so I wouldn't count that as much of a flaw.

 

[Carrie Underwood]

Like I said, I have nothing against mapping except when the walls are basic wireframe. It just doesn't click with me. I also don't enjoy when cartography is the central gameplay aspect, but that's a matter of taste I guess.

Since everything you mentioned sounds good, I'll give Wiz4 another try. I'll then move on to Might and Magic 1, since Wiz5 unfortunately has some sort of wierd copy protection on it.

 

[Ammar]

I did mention Ultima 7 part 2 above - that's Serpent Isle

I know. You misunderstood me. I meant
(You missed Ultima 5) and (Serpent's Isle is still one of the best CRPGs that exist)
not
You missed (Ultima 5 and Serpent's Isle) is still one of the best CRPGs that exist.

Clear?

Ultima 5 never got the same level of praise as U4 or U7. It is also the hardest of all the Ultimas, so it's not generally recommended but for the "hardcore" RPG crowd

Uh, that's not really true. U5 is the favourite part from U IV to U VI for many old Ultima people. And no Ultima is really insanely hard. There are some hurdles in the beginning but you can gain a quick start by robbing the king's cellars and once you get the Crown it's smooth sailing anyway. And storywise it's one of the best Ultimas. It also introduces NPC-schedules. It's not really a game one should miss out when playing oldies.

You have a point, though, that it has the most interesting and challenging combat of the entire series. Another reason not to miss out. I find the U IV combat which is very easy but also very tedious much worse.

 

[FrancoTAU]

The gayest part about Werdna the evil Wizard is that it's one of the programmer's name Andrew spelt backwards. Before you play Wizardry V, I think the SNES version might be much better graphically. EDIT - Confirmed, SNES is like a legit VGA graphics vs the PC version which is basically the same engine as 1-4. Compare and contrast.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/wizardry- ... creenshots

 

[Carrie Underwood]

The SNES version looks... really good. Thanks. I've just started M&M, so I'll catch back up to Wiz later on, and I'll definitely be playing the SNES version.
That makes 2 SNES RPGs - Wiz5 and Radical Dreamers.
Do you guys think I should cover Chrono Trigger and Earthbound while I'm at it?

 

[MisterStone]

Oh yehz, Chefe, one thing I remember about EA-published RPGs is that you could import classes from one to another. So IIRC you could import early Wizardry game chars to Bards Tale, and I think from BT to U4, or maybe it was U3. I think that Deathlord also might have let you import chars from Bards Tale... it had many similarities in game design with BT (in terms of combat and character classes), as did Wizardry of course.

I can't really remember how all the importing worked or in what direction, but it was an interesting relic of a lot of those RPGs from the Apple II/C64 days.

 

[FrancoTAU]

I remember importing characters in Legend of Faerghael from Goldbox Games. You can add that one onto your list if a mediocre Goldbox clone appeals to you. Dragon Wars is the spiritual sequel to the Bard's Tales and IMO much better. I think you could import characters with DW also. Worth checking out if the Bard's Tales + some story interests you.

I say skip Chrono Trigger unless you haven't played it before. It's good, but I think most everyone here has either played it or knows of it and passed anyways.

 

[Carrie Underwood]

I've played Chrono Trigger a bunch of times. It's a great game (Yes! CT is a great game! hahaha!). I wasn't sure how many people had played it, or what the general consensus was on it (the true consensus, not the JPRGs-suck bandwagon consensus). Consensus.

Does Legend of Faerghael have a storyline? I don't think I can take much more of these massive dungeon crawlers and their cartography.

 

[MisterStone]

Was Faerghail the one with the Western monk class and the blacksmith class? I played it a little bit as a kid, but I remember that it sucked pretty badly... unless I am thinking of a different game. The game I am thinking of was more or less a shoddy Bard's Tale ripoff. I don't think that it is worthwhile... playing BT II would be more worthwhile.