Review The Escapist bitch-slaps The Witcher

[Koby]

For your infotrmation I read all coments in that thread. Most of you attacked him, cuz he reviewed it after 10 h of gameplay. Thats ok, also that he played unpatched version, thats also ok. And i didnt said that you attack him by his disaprobate for the game, but that some of you did it too violent (or i seemed it was imo too violent).

the minute He said "I'm sorry my article was labeled as a review" that's it, there is nothing else to do but beat a dead horse, Russ Pitts On the other hand... You know who he reminded me with the part I quoted? Peter Molyneux.

 

[One-guy]

Gosling: Read that "looks like" and "even with of all arguments you gave" *sigh*

Koby: alright, this part was realy retarded.

 

[Gosling]

Gosling: Read that "looks like" and "even with of all arguments you gave" *sigh*

I selectively quoted them so I must have read them, don't you think?
It still doesn't explain why that should *look like* fanboism to anybody.

 

[One-guy]

Ok maybe its only just me

Anyway dont make me wrong I DO NOT AGREE WITH THIS REVIEW [also i do not agree with some codexer's bitching about witcher's praising is all but a "polish fanbois", "polish nationalists" (like the guy, whose nickname started for leather "D").]

 

[Hazelnut]

I havn't read the whole thread, and I'm running out of lunch break, so what the hell....

There's a growing trend to hold the word "scientist" up to some unrealistic standard like "Jedi Knight" or "Moderate Republican," which I find utterly ridiculous. At a time when practically anyone can create a blog and share their opinions and experiences, it's incomprehensible to me why some people find it necessary to engage in debate over what's science and who qualifies for that title.

Either it's all science or it isn't. A scientist is nothing more or less than someone who opens oneself to an experiment and then shares it. We'd be doing ourselves a grave disservice to ascribe any more meaning to the word than that, and disqualifying many of the world's greatest thinkers in the process.

That's not to say one shouldn't have standards about what content one chooses to digest, but attempting to invalidate the opinion of others by questioning their "lack of sceince" is disingenuous, pointless and lame. It's akin to employing the phrase "uh-uh" in a debate, and I tend not to listen to such attacks when they are levied against me.

 

[Crolug]

One thing is certain though. You can't find too many threads with 'The Witcher' in its title with over 200 posts, so thanks Corvus, we owe you one

Edit:

I havn't read the whole thread, and I'm running out of lunch break, so what the hell....

Pff, Englishmen and their lunch breaks... I want one toooooo!

 

[WhiskeyWolf]

One thing is certain though. You can't find too many threads with 'The Witcher' in its title with over 200 posts, so thanks Corvus, we owe you one

Edit:

I havn't read the whole thread, and I'm running out of lunch break, so what the hell....

Pff, Englishmen and their lunch breaks... I want one toooooo!

Believe me, you don't want.

 

[Brother None]

Ah, dude, CorvusE

It's not a medieval setting. It's a fantasy world. Hence the mutants, monsters, magical potions, etc. And just because a fantasy world's misogyny is internally consistent, it doesn't make it any more enjoyable for me to experience.

Did you read the books? Do you realise fantasy is often used as a reflection on human nature, and high fantasy as a reflection on medieval times? Do you really think they should censor the reality of human nature just to not offend your sensibilities?

And most importantly, if you're unfamiliar with the works this game is based on, do you feel qualified to make such an assessment?

 

[Corvus.E]

And most importantly, if you're unfamiliar with the works this game is based on, do you feel qualified to make such an assessment?

I feel qualified to say it's not enjoyable for me, yes.

 

[somnium]

Allow me to respond here Corvus.E, since the escapist threat was locked

Where is the "rating" in my article? There is none.

Not the numerical rating but the overall rating you get from the text

So, while the game world's misogyny didn't lower a rating, it is completely appropriate for me to allow my personal feelings to color the game experience and to report on it. For a great many people, the inherent misogyny in the game does affect the quality of the experience.

That is alright, but claiming it lessened the overall quality of the game like you implied here,

Sadly, this moral ambiguity leads me to my final complaint and the game's ultimate downfall in my eyes. The Witcher presents a typically sexist view of women...

Is not. That is like saying just because you don't like fps or adventure games while reviewing a game of the said genre it is a lesser game ( i.e criticizing the game on elements that are the core of the genre and criticizing it on the lack of elements that don't belong in it).

 

[Corvus.E]

Is not. That is like saying just because you don't like fps or adventure games while reviewing a game of the said genre it is a lesser game ( i.e criticizing the game on elements that are the core of the genre and criticizing it on the lack of elements that don't belong in it).

I respectfully disagree. To not mention my impressions of the gender role portion of the game narrative would be like reviewing a Bret Easton Ellis novel and not mentioning that it's about a misogynistic yuppie. The existence of this material in the game needed to be included in my article, as it dramatically affected my ability to appreciate the other elements.

In other words, I don't think it's appropriate to separate content from mechanics.

..and you can't have it both ways. You can't say that I have to play the whole game in order to write about it and that I have to leave out impressions which might reflect poorly on the game.

 

[Brother None]

I feel qualified to say it's not enjoyable for me, yes.

That information is so wildly irrelevant to readers it really shouldn't be in a review, though. Here we have a gameworld that consistently translates from their original source (books) and portrays harsh reality as it is, stating it means "the game's ultimate downfall in my eyes" based on your own sensitivity is so un-review-worthy. At least, it shouldn't be brought up as a point of contention if you're going to fail to apply audi alteram partem and also state the possible reasons why the misogyny might be present.

But we already established that the entire article is not worthy of being called a review. Here and on every place it's been commented on, including the Escapist. Good thing the Escapist has a ready-made answer to criticism, though, banning people and locking threads. Way to take your journalistic responsibility seriously, guys!

You sure you wanna work with these clowns, Corvus?

 

[Shannow]

It's not a medieval setting. It's a fantasy world. Hence the mutants, monsters, magical potions, etc. And just because a fantasy world's misogyny is internally consistent, it doesn't make it any more enjoyable for me to experience.

Is there violence in The Witcher? I haven't played it, but I am strongly opposed to violent solutions to conflicts. Be it on a personal or on an international level.
But somehow that doesn't keep me from playing games that consist mostly of combat.
That is one of the main reasons I find it hard to understand your point here...
Some titties: Argh, ...not politically correct...*foamsatmouth*
Killing, pillaging, torturing, etc: Well, combat is somewhat clumsy, the blood doesn't drip in a realistic way, when that guy was tortured the voice acting of his screams was kinda mediocre...

I probably just can't take games as serious as you, and if I did I'd probably have different priorities

 

[Corvus.E]

That information is so wildly irrelevant to readers it really shouldn't be in a review, though.

What? You're claiming that the content of the game narrative is "wildly irrelevant" to writing about the game?

 

[Brother None]

What? You're claiming that the content of the game narrative is "wildly irrelevant" to writing about the game?

No, I'm claiming that representing only your highly personal impression of the game's content without either researching or representing the views of the developers or the basis of the book and its philosophy, and thus failing to hear the other side of the story that is key to many of the gamers who played this game is a gross malpractice of audi alteram partem.

And that is yet another journalistic sin.

You're not even trying to explain it or show it in another light, you just run in, state it's evil bad unpolitically correct bah and run out again. Hey, way to be a journalist.

Again, nice if this were an op-ed, but it wasn't. Do remember you're writing a review not as a diary entry to submit your own feelings, you're writing it to be read. The Escapist doesn't seem to be able to grasp that, tho', which is no fault of yours.

 

[Kingston]

So the Escapist banned two people and locked the thread, and Russ doesn't have to reply to anything.

"I think this one's run its course. Thanks for playing!" What the fuck? Run its course? I thought the debate on journalism was just starting. Damn I'm pissed. Public accountability in the toilet. The picture of Stalin is quite a fitting avatar for the Associate Editor.

 

[Brother None]

I like Joe Blancato, he's good people.

The Escapist is totally derailed, though, and their complete refusal to take any form of public accountability is not going to get them out of this hole. You can't just ignore criticism if you're a journalist, because your readers are your life's bread.

But nevermind, the Escapist is better than us. So whatever.

PS: I finally changed my avatar because you stubbornly refuse to, Kingston. I HOPE YOU'RE HAPPY!

 

[Corvus.E]

an op-ed, but it wasn't. Do remember you're writing a review not as a diary entry to submit your own feelings, you're writing it to be read. The Escapist doesn't seem to be able to grasp that, tho', which is no fault of yours.

Well, regardless of it's title, it was filed under OpEd in the Escapist system (and, yes, they have a tag for 'review' as well) and I was pretty clear with them that I'd be writing a highly subjective piece.

In fact, I don't think I like game 'reviews' of the nature you seem to feel this article should have been. In my experience they seem to cut and paste a lot of marketing text into them to cover for the fact that they only played about 10% of the game. I'd much rather read about someone's experience with the game, good or bad. Generally, I can tell from the way they write about it and what they choose to focus on whether I'd enjoy it myself.

I guess that's why I tend to read a lot of game commentary sites and blog which talk about the social impact and importance of this rapidly growing storytelling medium.

 

[JoKa]

an op-ed, but it wasn't. Do remember you're writing a review not as a diary entry to submit your own feelings, you're writing it to be read. The Escapist doesn't seem to be able to grasp that, tho', which is no fault of yours.

Well, regardless of it's title, it was filed under OpEd in the Escapist system (and, yes, they have a tag for 'review' as well) and I was pretty clear with them that I'd be writing a highly subjective piece.

In fact, I don't think I like game 'reviews' of the nature you seem to feel this article should have been. In my experience they seem to cut and paste a lot of marketing text into them to cover for the fact that they only played about 10% of the game. I'd much rather read about someone's experience with the game, good or bad. Generally, I can tell from the way they write about it and what they choose to focus on whether I'd enjoy it myself.

I guess that's why I tend to read a lot of game commentary sites and blog which talk about the social impact and importance of this rapidly growing storytelling medium.

if you're going down that road, dear corvus, there's no need for journalists at all, bloggers can do a 10%-playthrough and highly subjective pieces just as well...

and no, your implication that for any review you have to paste marketing text is pure bullshit.

 

[Brother None]

Well, regardless of it's title, it was filed under OpEd in the Escapist system (and, yes, they have a tag for 'review' as well) and I was pretty clear with them that I'd be writing a highly subjective piece.

Yes, yes, again, I'm not blaming you for the Escapist's shitty editorialism.

In fact, I don't think I like game 'reviews' of the nature you seem to feel this article should have been. In my experience they seem to cut and paste a lot of marketing text into them to cover for the fact that they only played about 10% of the game. I'd much rather read about someone's experience with the game, good or bad. Generally, I can tell from the way they write about it and what they choose to focus on whether I'd enjoy it myself.

You're a sketching a false dichotomy. There is no A or B option between the tripe that is this review or the tripe that is a false PR-cut and paste review. There are other options.

It is highly possible to take a very in-depth look into a game without getting bogged down on your own personal feelings. There's nothing wrong with being somewhat subjective, because you're human, that's what you do, the problem is when you do not research a game's source or try to understand what it's trying to accomplish.

You basically ignored the game's goals and basic philosophy in order to rant against objectifying women. I'm sure that's very noble of you in a 70's feminist sense, but quality journalism it is not. Again, quality journalism is to juxtapose your position of revulsion of objectifying women with the underlying harsh world philosophy of the Witcher. But I doubt you did enough research to realise the underlying philosophy.

Audi alteram partem is one of the most important adages of any journalist, yet you seem to think it's fine to leave it out.

My BioShock review got a lot of flak for arguing that the Little Sister "moral choice" in the game was something that was essentially empty because it did not impact the game's architecture and was only a superficial moral pull. Yet I can explain, by doing proper research into BioShock's history and goals, what the intentions of the morality were and how I feel they felt short in applying choice and consequence. And that, if you ask me, is how it's supposed to be

 

[Corvus.E]

You're arguing that I'm not a journalist and that I didn't write a review. I'm arguing that I'm a social commentator and that I wrote an opinion piece.

Why are we arguing again?

..and for the record, I did more research than I've been given credit for here. I simply felt, in the final analysis, that it was pretty irrelevant to my play experience. I know that my wife, for example, would not have enjoyed playing this game because of the way women were portrayed in the first 10 hours. Neither would two of my best male friends.

The feminists I know? Forget about it. They wouldn't have made it past the opening dialog.

When the first 10+ hours of the game portray the protagonist as someone whose only use for women is to bed them, or ignore their come-ons... well, that sends a pretty strong message and I don't think it was inappropriate to mention it.

Edit: Incidentally, I agree with your assessment of Bioshock's overly vaunted "moral choices."

 

[Brother None]

Why are we arguing again?

Because it was published as a review. I haven't seen you pull any strings to get that fixed. I know you don't have editorial control, but what the hell? It's your piece, it's been misrepresented, and you're getting the flak for it. You should be pissed at the Escapist, but you're here, and only you, to defend their shitty editorial work. Something is rotten in Denmark!

When the first 10+ hours of the game portray the protagonist as someone whose only use for women is to bed them, or ignore their come-ons... well, that sends a pretty strong message and I don't think it was inappropriate to mention it.

It's not inappropriate to mention it, it's inappropriate to mention it without giving the game a proper chance to defend itself.

As to you, your wife, friends and feminists. Well, I'm sorry, but I'm sure the majority of your readers aren't politically correct pussies (sorry) and won't feel the same way.

Edit: Incidentally, I agree with your assessment of Bioshock's overly vaunted "moral choices."

Cheers, got a lot of flak for it but after discussing it I still felt it was a fair point. An MGS speaker agreed with me:
How Architecture Can Fail Us

Blow turned to BioShock as his example of flawed architecture. "What you’re supposed to do is kill the Big Daddy and capture the Little Sister, and decide do you want to kill her or rescue her – it's supposed to be a big ethical dilemma. As it turns out it doesn’t matter whether you do either – the game throttles the rewards either way. The very idea of this save or kill dilemma is an architected idea imposed from the top," he explained.

He continued, "The game rules determine the actual meaning of life in the game, and it says whatever you do to the Little Sisters doesn’t matter, no matter how much the game tries to convince you that it does." The "Meta-message," according to Blow, is that "the designers of this game are trying to manipulate your emotions in a clumsy way."

 

[Kingston]

The Escapist is totally derailed, though, and their complete refusal to take any form of public accountability is not going to get them out of this hole. You can't just ignore criticism if you're a journalist, because your readers are your life's bread.

It'll most likely descend into shittiness, especially now that they've got Yahtzee it seems the editors feel like they don't need to work as hard anymore. Since they are getting their money from ads and not sales it's just view count that matters, and Yahtzee's hilarity is guaranteed to bring them in. Besides, us critics are in the minority.

But nevermind, the Escapist is better than us. So whatever.

Indeed. They are confident enough in their abilities not to answer people's criticism... or however they put it.

PS: I finally changed my avatar because you stubbornly refuse to, Kingston. I HOPE YOU'RE HAPPY!

I'm very happy. I knew you would break. The face of Stubble Ironfist can only be carried by those with a power level of over 9000, so you go on and cry because that's what you deserve!

 

[Corvus.E]

Jonathan Blow is awesome. I saw him speak at GDC this year.

I also felt that the ability to reload discarded plasmids flattened the gameplay considerably. Might as well have just let us load 'em all up and turn it into a pure FPS. I wanted trade offs and multiple solutions to environmental issues.

I got pretty art deco design and gameplay that the first System Shock put to shame.

 

[Nael]

I've always felt that people with objections to sexuality in a game are just jealous of the guy in the game gettin laid. That's just human nature, and it's nothing to be ashamed of Corvus.