Turn based Strategy vs TB CRPG markets large discrepancy

[buccaroobonzai]

Turn based and TB/RTS hybrid Strategy, and to a lesser extent tactical games are still being made in large numbers, by small-mid size studios, and sell at least pretty good to good, some even very well. CRPGS are not, besides a few small indy studios.

Turn based:
Civilizatoin 4
Galactic Civilizations 2
Fantasy Wars
Strategic Command
Gary Grigsby's World at War
Silent Storm
All the TB wargames

Phased based:
Theater of War
Combat Missions

TB/RTS hybrid
Total War series
Space Empires V

etc.


It is interesting to see that consumers/fans, devs, and publishers are all ok and enjoy TB variations no matter the tech/graphics/immersion/interactivity advances in the field, as long as it is in the strategy/tactics genre. Stray into the RPG genre, and it is nearly alike to trying to make a TB FPS.
One might see how, though not necesaarily comprehend why both genres would be relegated to RTS action only, if that were the case. But that is not so, as TB and TB/hybrid strat/tactic games are still being made consistantly, and they are much more consistantly good then even the last decade or so of TB CRPGs!

I guess the only plausible assumption is that TB CRPG fans are fewer and fewer in number, and do not command any market or media attention. However TB strat/tactic game fans still do, and I don't see why there is not a large crossover at least between the two genres by the same fans. There should be more pull from the TB strat/tactics fans for TB CRPGs. I wonder just how many players are fans of, and play both genres-TB strat/tactics and TB CRPGs.

 

[Destroid]

RPGs are adventure games with poor strategy elements?

 

[Castanova]

It's more that it isn't really feasible to do real-time for higher level strategy games. I assure you, if a developer found a way to accomplish that the publishers would be all over it.

 

[Destroid]

Hearts of Iron?
Star Wars: Rebellion?
Sudden Strike?

 

[GarfunkeL]

Dunno about the others but HoI is still turn-based. Each turn is 1 hour long but it's just that they roll constantly, creating an illusion of real-time. You can control the speed and you can also pause the game. And in the end, HoI isn't nearly as grognard and it abstracts many functions of warfare, hence the ability of seemingly real-time gameplay.

 

[Spectacle]

That makes no sense, you might as well say that Starcraft is turn based, with each turn taking 10 milliseconds or whatever the tick length is.

 

[Panthera]

Except that you can't slow down and speed up Starcraft at will, nor issue orders when paused, and nor is the tick length slow enough to ever be noticeable.

 

[Robot]

Yeah, but the actions are carried out simultaneously and in real-time. RTwP.

 

[sheek]

As mondblut says regularly, the problem with the CRPG market is that the emo/story-fag demographic has adopted it. The target market has changed so combat and other basic traditional RPG aspects become less important. It's also why CRPGs are more susceptible to hype, story-fags being more emotional people.

The genuine ('traditional') RPG fan will always be a small minority, since not everyone is good at math or can think logically. That's why the wargaming industry is still mostly very small companies. Emo's are like the swarms of people who became interested in LOTR after the movies came out, displacing the small number of nerdy bookworms who were the fanbase before. The mainstream RPG market is now run by a few large companies because they can sell the games to pretty much anyone with the ability to process text at a high-school level (because only the story is important, character customization is done for you).

The next generation evolution will be that you only need to be able to understand spoken English (all text voice acted) to be an "RPG fan". So the market will require only maybe two mega-corporations (Bioware and Bethesda most likely), who will serve the same action packed and voice acted shit every year minor variations in setting.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Yeah, but the actions are carried out simultaneously and in real-time. RTwP.

Well, it's still not "real" real-time, like RTS games. And the combat calculations are done in turns, though that is too fast and you cannot control it.

 

[Joe Krow]

I think it has more to do with what you think roleplaying is. Is it miniatures in the basement or wearing a cape in a comic shop? That's the distinction.

 

[obediah]

Yeah, but the actions are carried out simultaneously and in real-time. RTwP.

Well, it's still not "real" real-time, like RTS games. And the combat calculations are done in turns, though that is too fast and you cannot control it.

Oh, do tell! What makes Starcraft "real" real-time, and HoI turn based?

Being able to pause the game and change the clock speed? Plenty of RTS and other RT games have mutable clock speeds. Adding pause makes RTwP, not TBwP.

 

[Demnogonis Saastuttaja]

Yeah, but the actions are carried out simultaneously and in real-time. RTwP.

Well, it's still not "real" real-time, like RTS games. And the combat calculations are done in turns, though that is too fast and you cannot control it.

It's real-time but with speed control. Doesn't Supreme Commander allow you to pause and issue commands, and show you time estimates (0,01 seconds = turn? Nah.)? And even the first C&C allowed you to change game speed.

 

[sheek]

Adding a pause mechanism to a real-time game is like admitting failure.

If pausing is required for any reasonable person to play your game, you may as well kill yourself.

'Allowing' pause to give orders is not an additional game feature it's a fuckup.

 

[obediah]

Adding a pause mechanism to a real-time game is like admitting failure.

If pausing is required for any reasonable person to play your game, you may as well kill yourself.

'Allowing' pause to give orders is not an additional game feature it's a fuckup.

You should really just stick to GD.

Imagine how much more fun HoI would be if you couldn't pause. Or the After* games, or any of the grognard RT games, or even BG/NWN2 for christ's sake.

 

[Jaime Lannister]

Adding a pause mechanism to a real-time game is like admitting failure.

If pausing is required for any reasonable person to play your game, you may as well kill yourself.

'Allowing' pause to give orders is not an additional game feature it's a fuckup.

You should really just stick to GD.

Imagine how much more fun HoI would be if you couldn't pause. Or the After* games, or any of the grognard RT games, or even BG/NWN2 for christ's sake.

BG/NWN2 should have been TB. But HoI turn-based would have been slow as fuck. The advantage of RTwP in large-scale games is that you can go really fast when you want to and really slowly, almost turn-based like, when you need to.

 

[sheek]

Um, I think you missed the point obediah. If there had been no pause they would have had to design their games so you wouldn't need it and therefore have made better games.

The Myth series didn't need (or allow you to) pause, because the pace of the action, number of units etc was designed so you could handle everything with practice. If your reflexes were poor you could slow down to I think 1/4 of the speed by pressing a simple easily reachable button, and it didn't disrupt the action.

Starcraft didn't have that because it's designers were stupid.

HoI could be dealt with by 6 hour segments without reducing tactical depth or realism. So you could run the game at four times the speed for the same amount of effort, or the same speed and you would probably never need to pause.

 

[obediah]

Um, I think you missed the point obediah. If there had been no pause they would have had to design their games so you wouldn't need it and therefore have made better games.

The Myth series didn't need (or allow you to) pause, because the pace of the action, number of units etc was designed so you could handle everything with practice. If your reflexes were poor you could slow down to I think 1/4 of the speed by pressing a simple easily reachable button, and it didn't disrupt the action.

Starcraft didn't have that because it's designers were stupid.

HoI could be dealt with by 6 hour segments without reducing tactical depth or realism. So you could run the game at four times the speed for the same amount of effort, or the same speed and you would probably never need to pause.

Why are you even here? By your illogic turn based games are the worst of all! Anything that requires stopping the akshun to think is bad deisgn.

Maybe you've never considered that some people like using their brain to solve problems, rather than just numbing it with drugs while they rush through life.

 

[sheek]

Er, I never criticized turn-based. I criticized the need to pause in a real-time game.

I'm truly sorry that I'm not saying what you want to think I'm saying but I can't do much about it.

 

[obediah]

Er, I never criticized turn-based. I criticized the need to pause in a real-time game.

I'm truly sorry that I'm not saying what you want to think I'm saying but I can't do much about it.

Then why is stopping to think okay in TB, but not RTwP?

 

[sheek]

Because the purpose of RT is continuous action. If you're going to be stopping regularly it defeats that purpose. Get it?

And actually most people can think without the game being stopped. You might not be able to think as deeply, but it's a different kind of activity. And in practice a lot of turn based isn't exactly deep either.

 

[Talby]

I'd rather go with one or the other - dedicated real-time or dedicated turn-based. Trying to blend the two usually results in failure.

 

[sheek]

Obediah won't post in this thread any more. He's moved on to tittering at me in other threads.

 

[Destroid]

Laser Squad Nemesis - the game where real time with pause is the primary game mechanic.

Personally, I draw the line on turn based and real/phased games based on whether you may issue orders at the same time, or must take turns.

 

[Helton]

Turn based, round based, real time. No grey areas that I know of.