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Fallout Underwhelmed by Fallout :(

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Fallout 1 is an interesting game.

A lot of the critiques in this thread, and elsewhere are pretty spot on. The atmosphere isn't as good as the ardent fans paint it to be. Writing isn't too shabby, but it's not going to floor anyone who is moderately well read (and I'm extrapolating a bit here, being a product of the wonderful Kwanzanian publik edumufication system). The systems leave a lot to be desired; in many ways Cain/Boyarsky/Taylor reached a bit too far...how were they every going to make Gambling feel useful among 20+ skills given their budget/scope? And some of the areas, particularly the earlier ones, are barebones. There's simply not a lot of interesting content in many of the initial areas. How many people skip Vault 15 on successive runs? Oh....that's a lotta hands up, I see.

But Fallout 1 does something special...and I don't mean the attribute system. It's one of the few games to allow the player to create a non-combat (ok, low-combat, because Rat Diplomacy outside of the Stallonian school IS TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE according to a discussion held by erudite Codexian elders) character and play them through to the endgame without undue metagaming. The only required areas in the game (Mariposa and the Cathedral) have scripted speech/stealth/science solutions provided the player is crafty enough to acquire the proper items, make of disguises, and explore the areas thoroughly. No other game really does this, forcing the player into the combat role at numerous points throughout the game.

-Fallout 2 has everyone's (least) favorite Clint Eastwood reference standing between the player and the endgame. Sure, characters versed in Science and Speech could reprogram some turrets and recruit a mutinous squad to their aid, but combat was inevitable, and an Endboss Gun was likely to be trained upon the player character unless they did both and were lucky. It's a far cry from the "cleaner" solutions presented in Fallout 1.

-Arcanum forces oodles of combat upon the player. Certainly, a character completely inept in any sort of scrum can get by with the aid of allies, but it doesn't exactly *feel* different. The person playing as a dumb-as-nails debutante, with some ogre and canine bodyguards, is going to face a pretty similar gameplay scenario as the Harm-spamming mage in most cases, with the manner in which they resolve the combat scarcely different in any meaningful way. Sure, the game did offer many unique opportunities depending on race/sex/attributes/aptitude, but they tended to spread out and the game was well-marbled with filler combat (e.g. P. Schyler & Sons, Black Rock Clan, Vendigroth Ruins, Path to You-Know-Who), diminishing their impact.

-Bloodlines hits players with the one-two-three punch of the sewers, Hallowbrook Hotel, and the the final area(s). Enjoyed your charismatic Toreador, stealthy Nosferatu, or cunning Ventrue? No more, as the House of Infinite Ninja Vampires is here to screw you over. That, or a fleshcrafting menace. Really sad, given that they had designed 2/3rds+ of the game to be compatible with non-combat playstyles.

-Alpha Protocol....welp, here comes a stupid boss fight, high on coke, to murder your stealthy tech expert.

It's simply sad that in almost two decades since the release of Fallout 1 no dev, save a plucky ferrous indie, has decided to drill down on the idea of multiple solutions to areas that allow for different character types to have heavily divergent experiences within any one content piece. Basically, taking the idea of Mariposa and the Cathedral, but making them the blueprint for every area in the game. Maybe there would be less locales than the typical RPG, but they would sure be a lot more fun.

However, I suppose none of us should be surprised. Doing such would require a control of scope that is anathema to marketers/publishers. "What do you mean this only has X hours of gameplay? Skyrim has over 9000!" "Why does your skill system have all these complicated and different skills? Players want Fightan', Magickin', and Roguein'...like those Peter Jackson movies and Game of Thrones!" Even "core" gamers voice discontent with titles that are meant to be highly replayable, when individual playtimes tend below a certain par. "This gaem suxz, itz only 3hrs!"

*Ignores the fact that each three hour tour is wildly different from any other, with tons of different avenues and choices/consequences available ro the player*.

And, in a roundabout way, that's why Fallout 1 is special; it did something no other game has yet to do.
 

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That's what you find special and unique about Fallout 1? Seems kind of mundane for such a big wall of text. "You can run around the rats in the rat cave and the aggressive ghouls in Necropolis for a zero-kill playthrough, even though you're supposed to be in a super dangerous post-apocalyptic wasteland with random encounters!" To me, that's more of a gimmick than a feature.

The 100% non-linear open world with zero plot gating, where you can walk right up to the final area, break in and tell the Master "sup". IMO, THAT is Fallout's unique killer feature, not "low combat" playthroughs.
 
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Crevice tab

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You still have to admit that Bio always put story above gameplay, no mater how lame the ''story'' of their is.

And when that story wasn't crap and they still paid attention to gameplay that wasn't a problem. Once EA entered the scene and some of the devs became superstars for the SJW crowd things became shit.

The problem isn't the story above gameplay stuff in itself- the problem is that everything they produce is utter irredeemable crap.
 

Gnidrologist

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Well, I can say you are definitely stupid since apparently you can't understand that people criticizing these aspects of FO2 don't say that the game is shit.
I can say that you are genuinely stupid because you haven't posted a smart post since your joining date.
 

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Bioware doesn't make storyfag games, because their writing is horrible and only slightly better than Bethesda's autistic drivel. Bioware makes dudebro games for the "living room experience", with focus on graphics and voice acting and spaceships/dragons.

A game with strong writing doesn't have to become a linear tardfest with easy combat, meant for vegetative consumption while you're sprawled on the couch, lazily twiddling the controller with your thumb.

So don't take out your angst against mediocrity on storyfags. Bioware is the fault of the console and the dudebro.
 

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Bioware doesn't make storyfag games, because their writing is horrible and only slightly better than Bethesda's autistic drivel. Bioware makes dudebro games for the "living room experience", with focus on graphics and voice acting and spaceships/dragons.

A game with strong writing doesn't have to become a linear tardfest with easy combat, meant for vegetative consumption while you're sprawled on the couch, lazily twiddling the controller with your thumb.

So don't take out your angst against mediocrity on storyfags. Bioware is the fault of the console and the dudebro.

Maybe true for old Bioware but Bioware's new stuff? Bethesda is way better (except for maybe Fallout 3)- their characters are mostly harmless instead of purposefully offensive or utterly retarded and they don't spew SJW shit all over you.
 
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That's what you find special and unique about Fallout 1? Seems kind of mundane for such a big wall of text. "You can run around the rats in the rat cave and the aggressive ghouls in Necropolis for a zero-kill playthrough, even though you're supposed to be in a super dangerous post-apocalyptic wasteland with random encounters!" To me, that's a gimmick, not a feature.

Not exactly. I'll try an de-wall my text, I guess.

Fallout 1 isn't great solely because one can metagame for a zero-kill playthrough, but because essential areas had built-in solutions catering to different character types. Your "Charisma/Stealth/Science Boy" character actually had a viable and unique endgame in both of Fallout's final maps, on par with "Combat Boy". The game was actually designed around multiple playstyles, and significantly so.

Imagine if another game, say Bloodlines, could boast of the same. Let's say the Sewers, Hotel, Ming Xiao's, and Ventrue Tower all have built-in stealth and persuasive solutions. Bam! The game is instantly catapulted even higher within the Codex's esteem, bypassing the snag that most (non-blobber, non-crawler) cRPGs have: that content is normed to a combat-centric playthrough with non-combative options a halfheartedly supported occurrence.

Certainly, Fallout 1 is far from perfect...most of the stuff before and up-to The Hub are geared toward "Combat Boy". There's not really a whole lot of different ways to exterminate Deathclaws besides shooting them yourselves, and many of the Law vs Criminals shootouts wee far more interactable if one had sufficient combat skills. But when it came down to the end, to the required areas, Fallout 1 delivered alternative solutions in a way no other game has done since. What other game has as well-designed areas as Mariposa and the Cathedral, allowing for as many solutions?

That's probably why the game is so revered...that it stepped up when it counted and had some real follow-through.
 

shihonage

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Maybe true for old Bioware but Bioware's new stuff? Bethesda is way better (except for maybe Fallout 3)- their characters are mostly harmless instead of purposefully offensive or utterly retarded and they don't spew SJW shit all over you.

It's true that Bethesda doesn't care for SJW shit. However their writing is very bad. Oblivion, Fallout 3 and Skyrim are bland, uninteresting worlds filled with throwaway NPC drivel and really shitty story arc. Bethesda is the classic example of "programmer-written dialogue".

In the end, neither company produces anything even remotely interesting from storyfag point of view.
 

Sykar

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Not exactly. I'll try an de-wall my text, I guess.

Fallout 1 isn't great solely because one can metagame for a zero-kill playthrough, but because essential areas had built-in solutions catering to different character types. Your "Charisma/Stealth/Science Boy" character actually had a viable and unique endgame in both of Fallout's final maps, on par with "Combat Boy". The game was actually designed around multiple playstyles, and significantly so.

Imagine if another game, say Bloodlines, could boast of the same. Let's say the Sewers, Hotel, Ming Xiao's, and Ventrue Tower all have built-in stealth and persuasive solutions. Bam! The game is instantly catapulted even higher within the Codex's esteem, bypassing the snag that most (non-blobber, non-crawler) cRPGs have: that content is normed to a combat-centric playthrough with non-combative options a halfheartedly supported occurrence.

Certainly, Fallout 1 is far from perfect...most of the stuff before and up-to The Hub are geared toward "Combat Boy". There's not really a whole lot of different ways to exterminate Deathclaws besides shooting them yourselves, and many of the Law vs Criminals shootouts wee far more interactable if one had sufficient combat skills. But when it came down to the end, to the required areas, Fallout 1 delivered alternative solutions in a way no other game has done since. What other game has as well-designed areas as Mariposa and the Cathedral, allowing for as many solutions?

That's probably why the game is so revered...that it stepped up when it counted and had some real follow-through.

The step up brought it from mediocre (solely through atmosphere) to good. What followed was hardly something super innovative never achieved again brilliance.
 

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Fallout 1 isn't great solely because one can metagame for a zero-kill playthrough, but because essential areas had built-in solutions catering to different character types. Your "Charisma/Stealth/Science Boy" character actually had a viable and unique endgame in both of Fallout's final maps, on par with "Combat Boy".

...

What other game has as well-designed areas as Mariposa and the Cathedral, allowing for as many solutions?

OK, that's what I thought. So what you really want to say is "Fallout 1 had some fucking great and well-designed endgame areas". I agree with that.

But I'm very wary of extrapolating from that to the more general statement that "Fallout 1 is revolutionary for supporting non-combat builds", because it's so area-specific.
 

shihonage

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The resurgence of edgy contrarian Fallout revisionist tards on the Codex is depressing. That's how NMA died. People are just getting dumber all over the place, and it's poisoning all the wells. No water chip will help here.
 

Sykar

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The resurgence of edgy contrarian Fallout revisionist tards on the Codex is depressing. That's how NMA died. People are just getting dumber all over the place, and it's poisoning all the wells. No water chip will help here.

That would be true if people here would unanimously say Fallout 1 is shit. Most don't though. Regardless how good Fallout 1 was, it is undeniable that it had several sever flaws. Boring start, bland simple combat and shit tons of bugs.
 

Rake

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You still have to admit that Bio always put story above gameplay, no mater how lame the ''story'' of their is.
Same did PS:T... :smug:
Bioware's problem isn't their formula, it's the excecution.
And do you honestly believe that DA:O,DA2,and DA:I are storyfag games? No storyfag would bother with them any more that he would be bothered with Skyrim.
 
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shihonage

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That would be true if people here would unanimously say Fallout 1 is shit. Most don't though. Regardless how good Fallout 1 was, it is undeniable that it had several sever flaws. Boring start, bland simple combat and shit tons of bugs.

Nah, that's how it always goes. You make Fallout from a remarkable game that it is, despite all the evidence, into something unremarkable. Not shit, just unremarkable.

Focusing on a few flaws instead of the gross overwhelming total of what the game did RIGHT, and instead of respecting just how rarely a game does that, this retarded attitude, when goes on unchecked, is a sign of mental decline of the forum.

NMA is full of Bethesda apologists now. These forums are pending the same fate, it appears. New blood is stupid, and old blood is getting senile.
 
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NMA is full of Bethesda apologists now. These forums are pending the same fate, it appears. New blood is stupid, and old blood is getting senile.

Those guys were still a twinkle in their daddy's eye, when Fallout came out. What do you expect? lol
 
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That would be true if people here would unanimously say Fallout 1 is shit. Most don't though. Regardless how good Fallout 1 was, it is undeniable that it had several sever flaws. Boring start, bland simple combat and shit tons of bugs.
I always considered Fallout 1 to be good for what it was. It suffered pretty badly from losing the GURPS license.

Too bad things went downhill fast after Fallout 2 and Fallout 2 already managed to mangle the setting.
 

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