Decline What's up with these characteristically weak classes nowadays?

[luj1]

“It isn’t the classes that are weak, it’s your play”

Aliens

 

[luj1]

You have yet to come up with an example that I haven’t dismantled

Brother, the only thing you are dismantling, is forum bandwidth, since you are talking with yourself. It's called illusion of grandeur in psychology.

10 different people in this thread explained to you, in very plain terms, why PF class design and class identity is bland when compared to the classics. Even a child could understand.

The fact you have decades of experience as you claim, only made this whole exchange more sad.

 

[Vic]

It's called illusion of grandeur in psychology.

actually it's called delusions of grandeur

 

[luj1]

You are right, thanks

 

[Lacrymas]

The classes, and especially the archetypes, are weak in neither sense.

Like others have pointed out, you are arguing with yourself because (like I've explained multiple times already) it's not about whether the subclasses are weak in a mechanical sense.

 

[Desiderius]

You have yet to come up with an example that I haven’t dismantled

Brother, the only thing you are dismantling, is forum bandwidth, since you are talking with yourself. It's called illusion of grandeur in psychology.

10 different people in this thread explained to you, in very plain terms, why PF class design and class identity is bland when compared to the classics. Even a child could understand.

The fact you have decades of experience as you claim, only made this whole exchange more sad.

You're wrong.

I have arguments with demonstrations. I've had one response that I half agreed with and half dissented from.

The rest are memes you're parroting. You have nothing to lose but your butthurt.

 

[Desiderius]

The classes, and especially the archetypes, are weak in neither sense.

Like others have pointed out, you are arguing with yourself because (like I've explained multiple times already) it's not about whether the subclasses are weak in a mechanical sense.

That isn't explanation.

Ipse dixit is only effective from a position of authority. An authority which I possess having extensively tested the game (and made your own mistakes) and you don't. I have condescended from that position to supplement that authority with detailed arguments which your silence assents to. If you want to dissent make your case.

Those who have have been exposed as relying on counterfactuals and unwarranted hypotethicals. There is simply not enough there there and too much for the opposite case.

Happens

 

[luj1]

Your central argument is that PF class identity is weak because people are multiclassing. First of all, that is not true, second of all, no one even mentioned multiclassing, except you, because you are insane.

 

[Vic]

just another day on the codex

 

[Desiderius]

actually it's called delusions of grandeur

I've had a grand time playing a game my interlocutors haven't yet, so no in this case not delusional.

 

[Desiderius]

Your central argument is that PF class identity is weak because people are multiclassing. First of all, that is not true, second of all, no one even mentioned multiclassing, except you, because you are insane.

That is not my argument, central or tertiary.

The class identity isn't weak. I have yet to see evidence you've played any of the classes in question at all to tell one way or another. Usually that's due to getting lost chasing one-weird-trick leet builds (that turn out to not even be very leet).

Perhaps you're simply too old to venture it. That was my other guess. Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us.

In BG3 every class can disengage/hide/dash as a bonus action (like a Rogue)

Understand the foot this topic got off on and the rest follows naturally.

You're talking out of your distended anus.

 

[Desiderius]

Just boring samey classes

Then in Owlcat games you have 50 bloat classes, like you have a Ranger, then a Ranger without Animal Companion

If that something else changes your entire play pattern and party make-up then that is not in fact the same.

It does (Freebooter's Bond and Bane in this case - slight variant of Ranger Unique ability Ranger's Bond, which any Ranger can choose in lieu of pet and to which Aru is restricted).

QED

And no that's not the same as Witch Hex. Bane is Move Action, which pairs well with Standard Actions like Cleave supported by Ranger Combat Style Feats, or Quarry, not Standard.

 

[luj1]

Your central argument is that PF class identity is weak because people are multiclassing. First of all, that is not true, second of all, no one even mentioned multiclassing, except you, because you are insane.

That is not my argument, central or tertiary.

The class identity isn't weak. I have yet to see evidence you've played any of the classes in question at all to tell one way or another. Usually that's due to getting lost chasing one-weird-trick leet builds (that turn out to not even be very leet).

Perhaps you're simply too old to venture it. That was my other guess. Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us.

In BG3 every class can disengage/hide/dash as a bonus action (like a Rogue)

Understand the foot this topic got off on and the rest follows naturally.

You're talking out of your distended anus.

Yet somehow everyone knew what I meant, and agreed overall, except one PF fangirl.

Reminds me of when Infinitron tried to prove system bloat doesn't exist. Which was another successful thread.

 

[jackofshadows]

You're talking out of your distended anus.

He is. He'd rather play some his favorite games for liek 20 years in a row and convince himself that those are the shit and the others are just you know, shit than to actually try to analyze something new let alone enjoy it.

Don't get me wrong though, I fucking love Cotex for this kind of thing. Your rants are amazing, too except I don't like Owlcats games therefore I don't read them that closely. But still I very much appreciate them rants.

 

[luj1]

I played every game I am hating, I like the genre. If you don't think classes tend to be blander nowadays, you are in the minority here.

PS jack, sorry I hurt your feelings the other day

 

[Beans00]

Do classes really matter when 95% of the game is trash mobs?


Serious questions we need to ask ourselves.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

The general concept of classes in 3E was fine; take a bunch of generic archetypes and allow people to specialize them through prestige classes. Most early sourcebooks focused on the PrCs and left the core classes alone. Once they started messing with the core classes things started to get out of hand.

PF really blows the lid off by basically making every possible multiclass into a core class. You want a fighter mage? That's a Magus now. You liked Arcane archer? That's another type of magus. You want fighter-cleric, play inquisitor (as distinct from the other fighter/cleric; aka paladin, and the fighter priest kits in the cleric subs). Ranger rogue, rogue mage (multiple types), Sorcerer mechanics applied to every class, favored enemy, animal companion, sneak attack, so many overlapping spell lists all thrown into the PHB like confetti. Then you allow free multiclassing on top of that? It's a mess.

Do classes really matter when 95% of the game is trash mobs?

It's kind of the dirty secret to Owlcat's PF games; items actually do most of the heavy lifting. I see a lot of theorycrafting touting 3-5+ class multiclasses but few people ever compare them apples-to-apples to a bog-standard two-handed weapon fighter, esp. w/ any of PF's monstrously OP magic items.

 

[jackofshadows]

I played every game I am hating, I like the genre. If you don't think classes tend to be blander nowadays, you are in the minority here.

PS jack, sorry I hurt your feelings the other day

Instead of trying to court me or whatever you fucking gay, actually play some contemporary RPG like BG3 and trash it but for a cause. There's plenty of it to smash aside from the usual faggotry and such (spoiler: just don't mention encounter design no more - that's like one of the best in the genre).

 

[luj1]

I never did mention encounter design as criticism of BG3.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

So what's an example of a highly refined class system in a CRPG?

 

[Desiderius]

Your central argument is that PF class identity is weak because people are multiclassing. First of all, that is not true, second of all, no one even mentioned multiclassing, except you, because you are insane.

That is not my argument, central or tertiary.

The class identity isn't weak. I have yet to see evidence you've played any of the classes in question at all to tell one way or another. Usually that's due to getting lost chasing one-weird-trick leet builds (that turn out to not even be very leet).

Perhaps you're simply too old to venture it. That was my other guess. Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us.

In BG3 every class can disengage/hide/dash as a bonus action (like a Rogue)

Understand the foot this topic got off on and the rest follows naturally.

You're talking out of your distended anus.

Yet somehow everyone knew what I meant, and agreed overall, except one PF fangirl.

Reminds me of when Infinitron tried to prove system bloat doesn't exist. Which was another successful thread.

It meant you don’t know what you’re talking about, as can be seen by the replies to my query concerning your claim.

 

[Desiderius]

I played every game I am hating, I like the genre. If you don't think classes tend to be blander nowadays, you are in the minority here.

PS jack, sorry I hurt your feelings the other day

Which classes? Have you played them long enough to judge that blandness? Because when I stack up class levels blandness isn’t what I’m getting but the opposite.

The blandness comes from following cookie-cutter “builds” that never get enough class levels to develop or unlock the interesting stuff.

 

[Desiderius]

So what's an example of a highly refined class system in a CRPG?

PF games

Do classes really matter when 95% of the game is trash mobs?


Serious questions we need to ask ourselves.

Yes. Come up with a good mix and they don’t make you reload enough that you feel obliged to complain about them.

 

[jackofshadows]

I never did mention encounter design as criticism of BG3.

True but that guy just scaled HP and stats up, encounter design etc is still the same

No but kinda implied that here. Doesn't matter, just play it already.

 

[Darkozric]

(spoiler: just don't mention encounter design no more - that's like one of the best in the genre).

Indeed, exploration and encounter design are my favorite elements so far. Can't say if the game will maintain this since everyone is bitching about act 3 and I'm not that far (doing dark justiciar quest), but this shit feels huge, I'm taking breaks between sessions.