Why are PC RPGs so easy?

[roshan]

Ive just been playing lots of console games at my friends place, and one thing that struck me is that these games are actually quite HARD to play. Thinking about it, it seems that pretty much every genre of games throws challenge at players and constantly pushes them to get better at it.

But looking back at PC RPGs, there hasnt been a single game that provided me with any sort of challenge whatsoever. Even the best combat in games like Fallout or Icewind Dale was just OK - it wasnt so easy that I could breeze through it, but it was never hard enough that I actually had to come up with strategiesm exploit character abilities or make use of my brain. However combat in PC RPGs has only gotten worse since then. Combat in KOTOR, TOEE, NWN, NWN2, MOTB and pretty much every other game has just been nothing more than going through the same boring motions over and over again.

Why cant RPG developers like Obsidian and Bioware challenge players? Why do they pander to the least common denominator instead of providing players with rewarding challenges? It seems to me that the modern RPG is no better than a casual game like the SIMs, made only for consumption by the most brain dead and retarded.

 

[Imbecile]

The thing is how do you make an RPG harder? If a fight is too tough, all a player has to do is go out and "farm" some more experience, which is rarely a recipe for enjoyable play.

Theres also the quicksave/reload issue which has always plagued games, but in particular pcs.

About the best way to toughen up an RPG would be to make your decisions have long term and severe consequences to avoid any save/reload shenanigans. Also difficult puzzles would help, though teh intrnets is always a solution to that. Why aren't there more adventure game elements in RPGs anyway?

Also, an ironman mode where the only time you can save the game is when you quit would be a nice feature.

 

[someone else]

Less grinding more easy the PC way!

 

[felicity]

I feel JRPG is more difficult in the way that you have to grind for extended time to compete... not my way of fun. And even when they do try to provide some options to players, the design often is badly executed or very bland and lack of depth compare to WRPG...

Also they like to put in collectable hidden cards/gems/items that requires multiple play through to get them... why such idea actually has fans is always puzzling me.

 

[Kavax]

The only way to increase combat difficulty would be to make the player's own skills have more influence in the game (I think Deus Ex in the realistic difficulty mode did it the best) but I would prefer there to be more puzzles, and adventure game elements. (I dream of an adventure game with the more open game design of Fallout or Arcanum)

 

[AzraelCC]

But were these console games RPGs? If so, could you give an example? I've played tactical RPGs on consoles and the best of them ARE quite difficult, yet the comparison should be made to games like Jagged Alliance or X-Com, not CRPGs. In which case, I think the difficulty levels are about the same for these tactical games.

If you're going to compare CRPGs with a genre that is more probable to appear on consoles, it would be JRPGs. In which case, CRPGs are more difficult IMO.

Any other comparison of genres between platforms would be inappropriate.

 

[King Crispy]

Because there's no DM.

Almost all CRPGs' origins are steeped in the PnP RPG experience which, when moderated correctly by a competent DM/GM, should never be "easy". This is because that moderator would place restrictions on how each PC were created, what kind of equipment they would eventually acquire, and how rapidly they would advance. All encounters could instantly be custom-tailored or adjusted according to the party's power level, so a dynamically-controlled difficulty level was always maintained.

PC's are stupid. It's too easy to exploit many different things that could very quickly turn your character(s) into near gods. Min/maxing, munchkinism, overpowered "crafting", the aforementioned quicksave -- all these things are too tempting to your average Drizzt-loving testosterone-filled goofball just getting out of high school. The computer cannot judge on-the-fly whether you are intentionally trying to powergame or whether you are merely trying to enjoy the game the way it was designed to play out.

I'm not saying that all powergaming is devoid of any redeeming qualities -- after all the object is to eventually "beat" the game. It's just that there are too many avenues that lead to gross imbalance and no checks and balances in place in most RPGs to prevent that loss of parity.

Edit: Level scaling can help, but we all know it's the devil.

 

[desocupado]

I played my fair share of JRPG's (wasted lots of time), and the only difficulty I had was having the patience to grind levels.

Ugh, I don't know where I got the strenght to go over the same fucking enemy encounter over and over again in these games.

If someone sees me as much as wondering if a JRPG might be good, please shoot me in the head.

Not that some don't have some good stories, but the game mechanics are crap.

 

[Pastel]

The thing is how do you make an RPG harder? If a fight is too tough, all a player has to do is go out and "farm" some more experience, which is rarely a recipe for enjoyable play.

Yeah, it's a real tough one. But here's a wild suggestion - remove grinding as a way of making the game easier, for fuck's sake.

 

[asper]

Dungeon crawlers like the Wizardries or Eye of the Beholder are quite difficult; how your party is composed actually matters. Combat is hard (and in the later Wizardries it's tactical), and the puzzles are not obvious.

In the Wizardries, when you have made bad choices in character creation and in forming your party, I don't think you can even make up with grinding a lot.

This is how I feel it should be in an RPG; you should be challenged to think strategically about skills, classes, races, abilities and the like (and there should be puzzles...)

Anyway if you want to be challenged go play Wizardry 4: The Return of Werdna, and report back here.

 

[AzraelCC]

Anyway if you want to be challenged go play Wizardry 4: The Return of Werdna, and report back here.

+1

 

[Turok]

Ive just been playing lots of console games at my friends place, and one thing that struck me is that these games are actually quite HARD to play. Thinking about it, it seems that pretty much every genre of games throws challenge at players and constantly pushes them to get better at it.

But looking back at PC RPGs, there hasnt been a single game that provided me with any sort of challenge whatsoever. Even the best combat in games like Fallout or Icewind Dale was just OK - it wasnt so easy that I could breeze through it, but it was never hard enough that I actually had to come up with strategiesm exploit character abilities or make use of my brain. However combat in PC RPGs has only gotten worse since then. Combat in KOTOR, TOEE, NWN, NWN2, MOTB and pretty much every other game has just been nothing more than going through the same boring motions over and over again.

Why cant RPG developers like Obsidian and Bioware challenge players? Why do they pander to the least common denominator instead of providing players with rewarding challenges? It seems to me that the modern RPG is no better than a casual game like the SIMs, made only for consumption by the most brain dead and retarded.

Why are they soo easy?? its because you play too much of then and now nothing is new or hard for you, accept it you are old.

I already accept it, now you will accept it?? yes you, i am talking to you, the one thats reading what i say right now.

 

[Emotional Vampire]

The thing is how do you make an RPG harder? If a fight is too tough, all a player has to do is go out and "farm" some more experience, which is rarely a recipe for enjoyable play.

EOT

 

[elander_]

Go play BG2 in the hardest difficulty mode. The grinding xp trick doesn't work there, because battles are leveled to your characters xp level.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I feel JRPG is more difficult in the way that you have to grind for extended time to compete... not my way of fun. And even when they do try to provide some options to players, the design often is badly executed or very bland and lack of depth compare to WRPG...

Also they like to put in collectable hidden cards/gems/items that requires multiple play through to get them... why such idea actually has fans is always puzzling me.

Why do people still say this crap? I haven't seen a jrpg that required grinding come out after '95 or so.

 

[Shoelip]

Persona 3, and presumably Persona 4 though I haven't played it yet, both require some grinding, and it's generally a good idea if you don't want to have a really hard time with the bosses later... wait.

They're harder if you don't grind and easier if you do... I think that's true for pretty much every game that allows you to perform repetitive actions that improve your character's abilities. Except games with level scaling.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Grinding doesn't do fuck all for you in that. It's more of a save/load spam shitfest when you get to a hard fight. Either it's an enemy with an exploitable weakness you can massacre or it's a fucking cheapass whore that randomly slays your whole party at will. Increasing your hp by 10% isn't going to help you. Very shitty combat/character growth in that game.

 

[Shoelip]

Um, no offense but it sounds like you haven't played for more than a few hours. Generally speaking, the bosses will slaughter you allot quicker if you don't have enough HP, and if your Persona isn't strong enough you're even more fucked. Even if it's strong against the element of the enemy's primary attacks you're still going to take tons of damage if it's weak overall.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I got up to the part where you have to fight the jesus lookalike. Every boss I've fought previously has been a matter of either spamming the right element at them (Cinch) or reloading every time they got a few too many critical hits. It really doesn't matter how many hp you have when the enemy gets 2 turns to your one. The personas don't really even gain new attacks as they level, except your own, which you make by fusing rather than leveling anyways.

Obviously grinding helps somewhat, but you'd be better off trying to fight the boss for 5 hours than grinding for 3 so you only have to try fighting him for 3.

Edit: I don't really feel like discussing this crappy game anyways. It's a drop in the bucket and doesn't invalidate my point.

Finalfantasy 4 through 12
Atelier Iris 1 through 3
Breath of fire 3 through 5
Mana Khemia
Radiata Stories
Romancing Saga
Saga Frontier
SMT: Nocturne
Skies of Arcadia
Star Ocean 2 and 3
Tales of Destiny, Legendia, Phantasia, the Abyss, etc.
Valkyrie Profile 1 and 2
Legend of Dragoon
Chrono Trigger/Cross
Wild ARMs 1-4 and whatever remakes they've done.

From a quick look through what Gamefaqs calls rpgs + some off the top of my head.
Thats excluding all the strategy hybrids like FFT and such. They pretty much gave up the grindfest thing after the SNES died. Even before then it was still 50/50. Have to go back to the NES days to make it the rule of the day.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I was actually pretty satisfied with SoZ yesterday when I killed One Of Many with a level 12 party.

 

[MisterStone]

What do you mean by hard, exactly? The puzzles, the combat, or hard because the interface sucks and its a pain in the ass to use?

 

[Occasionally Fatal]

Ive just been playing lots of console games at my friends place, and one thing that struck me is that these games are actually quite HARD to play.

how about citing some actual examples so we can laugh at you for being shitty? for fuck's sake, at least tell us what generation of consoles you're playing.

 

[Volourn]

"Dungeon crawlers like the Wizardries or Eye of the Beholder are quite difficult;"

No.

 

[Higher Game]

Persona 3 actually has a fair amount of challenge, and it's not just from needing the grind. Some enemies and bosses do need strategy to defeat that goes beyond picking the right buffs. It's not perfect, but I'd say it's a more respectable effort at difficulty than the latest Bioware games, which says a lot for a console game. And, it's as much of an "RPG" as early Wizardry. :wink:

 

[The Rambling Sage]

SMT: Nocturne

Okay, so Nocturne is easy, eh? Do an Ironman run on Maniax's Hard mode, True Demon ending, without grinding. Well, not Ironman: You are allowed one Death by Majin. You can die for the first time only after defeating Matador, for the second time only after defeating Dante, for the third time only after defeating High Priest, etc. If at any moment of the game your amount of deaths is higher than the amount of Majin demons you have defeated so far, you restart. THEN you can say the game is easy.

If you try to minimize reloads the dificulty is pretty hard and a certain amount of grinding is needed to have the slightest chance. If you reload whenever you like you can't say the game is without challenge.