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Why Baldur's Gate 2 Is A Good (Or Great) Pc-Rpg

Keldorn

Scholar
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Messages
867
1) 2-D isometric view

2) Classic, nuanced artistic renderings

3) Party-based adventuring

4) Distinct recruitable NPC's

5) Very long epic story

6) Uniquely balanced between linear and non-linear

7) Classic D&D character stat details (on character screen side scroll)

8) Minimal but significant primary character stat increases

9) Inter-party dialogue

10) Difficult combat (when played on the originally intended *hardcore* rules setting)

11) Tremendously dynamic, ambient and deep musical compositions

12) Tremendous variety of monsters and foes, some of whom are supremely lethal and will easily eradicate you if you make 1 strategic error (especially throughout the Underdark !!!). Sewer goblins beneath the city ? No so tough.

13) Strong-willed world inhabitants / NPC's

14) Magnificent narration

15) Magnificent (7) chapter progression

16) Magnificent antagonist-based storyline

17) Massive areas, widely varied & unique

18) A dark, ambient atmosphere throughout

19) Lots of conversive dialogue, with 100's of different unique characters
and game-impacting dialogue choices

20) Game-impacting decisions depending on when you commence combat

21) Humour

22) Horror

23) Nebulous neutrality

24) Character levelling is epic, not extremely frequent, therefore it is more significant
than in games which provide for level 120 masterdom

25) SUPERB cutscenes

26) GREAT voice acting

27) Viable and unique play path experience for any alignment & class


There are more, many more, but if you you've already thrown BG2 into the trash, then that is *your* loss.

If you are neutral about BG:2:SOA, then play it, on "Hardcore Rules" (originally intended)difficulty setting. Hit the 'H' key to get a good look at the nuanced environments, beautifully sculpted surroundings, greatness of artistic rendering.

If you play it with an open mind, you will love it, as your path can be uniquely forged in it with 5 party members, 2, or even none (very, very difficult).

Play Oblivion, and you'll see the 2 games are radically different in respect to nearly all game elements. Anyone who equates the 2 games is, by definition, Lumpy-brained.


Introductory Wiki comparison ( *SPOILER* WARNING !!! ) :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elder_ ... :_Oblivion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldur's_Gate_2



I am Keldorn. A *PALADIN*.

My old and battered body needs rest, though I do indeed approve, rather heartilly, of the path we have taken.

Excuse me, for I must leave. I shall wait for you, faithfully I might add, at the Northwestern corner of the sewers, as you approach the "eye" of the hurricane.

Be strong, be brutally honest and forthright, and be true to your character.

Good night.
 

Keldorn

Scholar
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Messages
867
Quite obviously, some flock feathers are ruffled and agitated.

As well, the Baldur's Gate 2 link should be working, and that malfunctioning link was not my intention, so I do wholeheartedly apologize.

I am Keldorn. A *PALADIN*.




"There Is No Baldur's Gate 3, And Nearly Everyone Is Oblivious."
 

psycojester

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 23, 2006
Messages
2,526
I'm confused.... is it an alt? I don't think we actually get new members anymore
 

Relayer71

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 23, 2006
Messages
538
Location
NYC
While BG 2 isn't the greatest RPG ever, isn't perfect and definitely isn't up there with the greats it was a very good game overall.

However, I can see how some "purists" may dislike it. Although maybe they were expecting a bit too much when they sat down to play it. It is after all a DnD video game - I hardly remember the Gold Box games being such literary, visionary, epic works of art.

Let's face it, Planescape was THE exception in DnD games. And possibly THE most unique PC RPG in existence.

But back to BG2 - Saying BG2 = Oblivion is beyond idiotic.

If you don't like BG2 fine, but don't let your hatred make you stupid by comparing it to one of the most worthless RPGs ever made.

Now NWN 1 = Oblivion I can totally understand.

Well maybe not, after all I managed to finish NWN 1 (dull as it was) whereas no matter how many times I go back to Oblivion and no matter how many mods I can't get into the game. It just sucks much too hard. It vacuums. Period.
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
Patron
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
28,396
Location
Not Here
Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
in what way?
I doubt console kids would've bought it and said 'omg this is cool, I'm arena grand champion at lvl 1'

They'd probably go for refund after a wolf ate their Level 1 mage for breakfast.
 

Lumpy

Arcane
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
8,525
RK47 said:
in what way?
I doubt console kids would've bought it and said 'omg this is cool, I'm arena grand champion at lvl 1'

They'd probably go for refund after a wolf ate their Level 1 mage for breakfast.
Most things were done through killing in both games. Dialogue was simple, characters were basic, there were almost no choices. Both games were linear except at some points which didn't really matter.
And both games were praised as great, groundbreaking, intelligent RPGs, even though they broke no new ground and weren't all that great.
 

Ladonna

Arcane
Joined
Aug 27, 2006
Messages
10,848
Yeah sorry, there are plenty worse games than BG1. And it is nothing like Oblivion from what I have read and heard about that game.

I still fondly remember some kid screaming about how he couldn't get past some guy that 'kept killing me at the stairs!!11! THIS GAME SUX!!!!'. The game wasn't a pushover, and had some interesting moments and quests in it.

It might not have done the same thing to me that Arcanum, Fallout, Magic Candle, Knights of Legends, etc did for me, but I thoroughly enjoyed Baldurs gate 1 and easily got my moneys worth from it.
 

Section8

Cipher
Joined
Oct 23, 2002
Messages
4,321
Location
Wardenclyffe
1) 2-D isometric view

I can give or take this. I prefer 3D rendering these days since it provides more dynamic options.

2) Classic, nuanced artistic renderings

I'm more a fan of tiles, provided there is still some balance of unique art assets. Tiles are just more versatile. Like Lego blocks as opposed to a Lego dinosaur head that can only be used if you want a dinosaur head.

3) Party-based adventuring

Personal preference. I enjoy both party-based games like Wizardry, and lone adventurer games like Fallout. Baldur's Gate wasn't my bag, despite being one of those things.

4) Distinct recruitable NPC's

Shame they're only distinct because each one has a single personality trait. "Rapist" and "Nun" are certainly distinct from one another, but "Rapist Nun" is far more interesting.

5) Very long epic story

I don't really like to be the recipient of anything described as "very long" or "epic".

6) Uniquely balanced between linear and non-linear

Unique things tend to fit one person's preference while passing some else's by completely.

7) Classic D&D character stat details (on character screen side scroll)

Meh. I got into D&D despite Bioware.

8) Minimal but significant primary character stat increases

Again, meh. I'd rather develop a character than increment a number.

9) Inter-party dialogue

Inane inter-party dialogue, sure.

10) Difficult combat (when played on the originally intended *hardcore* rules setting)

I like to make the distinction between "difficult" and "trying". I want a challenge to my wits, not my patience.

11) Tremendously dynamic, ambient and deep musical compositions

Probably, I never really paid that much attention.

12) Tremendous variety of monsters and foes, some of whom are supremely lethal and will easily eradicate you if you make 1 strategic error (especially throughout the Underdark !!!). Sewer goblins beneath the city ? No so tough.

This is one of those "bare minimum requirements" of RPGs. Well except for the "1 strategic error" bit, which is kind of silly. That sort of thing tends to encourage rote gameplay until inevitable success after repetition.

13) Strong-willed world inhabitants / NPC's

As an enchanter, I hate strong will saves.

14) Magnificent narration

I'd rather be the author of my own tale rather than have someone feed me theirs as I step through their linear "epic".

15) Magnificent (7) chapter progression

I'll let you have this one, since I've never bothered to actually progress.

16) Magnificent antagonist-based storyline

From what I've seen, it seems to be fraught with the implausible and silly premises typical of pantomime villainy.

17) Massive areas, widely varied & unique

Thumbs up for this one.

18) A dark, ambient atmosphere throughout

I did notive a significantly different tone in Baldur's Gate 2, but I've not seen enough to determine if it transcends the "dark ambience" typical of emos.

19) Lots of conversive dialogue, with 100's of different unique characters
and game-impacting dialogue choices

A definite plus. I thoroughly enjoyed telling those who claimed to be my friend in the starting prison to go fuck themselves before hacking them into pieces through the bars.

20) Game-impacting decisions depending on when you commence combat

I've seen no evidence of this, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

21) Humour

Even "Why did the chicken cross the road" has sophistication far beyond what Bioware could ever hope to attain. Fail.

22) Horror

Definitely. I cringe in abject horror for what the games industry has become in the wake of pedestrian efforts such as Baldur's Gate the first. Ergo, I never bothered with the second.

23) Nebulous neutrality

I'd sooner believe that of George Lucas than Bioware.

24) Character levelling is epic, not extremely frequent, therefore it is more significant
than in games which provide for level 120 masterdom

Different drinks for different needs. Some like the carrot further from the mule. Some like to tease it by letting it nibble.

25) SUPERB cutscenes

Benefit of the doubt, haven't seen any, so I'll accept your opinion as my own.

26) GREAT voice acting

Shame about the tripe they're giving voice to.

27) Viable and unique play path experience for any alignment & class

My paladin was able to act snooty and treat others as the wretched underlings they truly were, so pass. I agree, thus far.
 

Hamster

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 18, 2005
Messages
5,934
Location
Moscow
Codex 2012 Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014
I agree that BG was similiar to Oblivion, exactly because:
Lumpy said:
Most things were done through killing in both games. Dialogue was simple, characters were basic, there were almost no choices. Both games were linear except at some points which didn't really matter..

On the other hand, it was better than Oblivion in every aspect: better world, better combat, better narative, no handholding, better story, better charachters, etc...

Yes, it was the same type of game as Oblivion - fantasy game with lots of combat and some stats, but it was good at what it was, unlike Oblivion.
 
Joined
Feb 19, 2005
Messages
4,575
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I dunno, BG of course didn't have such absurd handholding as Oblivion but...

My RPG chareer started basicly with Realms of Arkania 3,
: Shadows over Riva, which I got from an old gaming magazine CD back then.
Shortly after it I played Baldurs Gate 1, and I remember how dissapointed I was about how much and detailed your journal tells you what to do compared to RoA 3, where very often you were left without any explecit information what the next step may be and you had to figure it our by yourself.

Of course the line is very thin. I'm not a fan of making notes during gaming so of course a journal which keeps track of all the details you get to know is a good thing, because its just replaces the need to write it down yourself which is tedious.
What I don't like is when the journal gives you hint and tips you could figure out by yourself from the notes you have, and I remember BG had quite a lot of that.

I wouldnt go as far as to call it a precedor to Oblivion handholding though, but it definatly helped to create the expectation amongst gamers that a good journal must always contain some kind of answer what to do next.
 

Lumpy

Arcane
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
8,525
"A man distracted me in a bar, telling me the story of how his necklace was stolen by some kobolds, and then he robbed me. Not wanting to create a fuss, I decided not to confront him, but rather look for the kobolds, since he may have been telling the truth. I have a feeling that if I bring him the necklace, he'll give me my money back."
Approximate transcript from your diary is Baldur's Gate.
Even in the infamous Sirens quest in Oblivion, you were told about their trick beforehand. Here, the choice the game forces you into not only isn't the only logical one, it's downright stupid and non-sensical.
 

Hamster

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 18, 2005
Messages
5,934
Location
Moscow
Codex 2012 Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014
Shortly after it I played Baldurs Gate 1, and I remember how dissapointed I was about how much and detailed your journal tells you what to do compared to RoA 3, where very often you were left without any explecit information what the next step may be and you had to figure it our by yourself.
I remember that i had problems figuring out what to do after clearing Nashkel Mines and in few other moments.
It may have something to do with the fact that due to the lack of proper navigation in the journal i haven't paid much attention to it, so i could have missed some tips.
 
Joined
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Messages
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Hamster said:
I remember that i had problems figuring out what to do after clearing Nashkel Mines and in few other moments.
It may have something to do with the fact that due to the lack of proper navigation in the journal i haven't paid to much attention to it, so i could have missed some tips.

No I think you're right, there were some instances where you had to figure out for yourself how to continue. I played this game long ago, but I remember that at one point I had to find a character in some place to advance the plotline which was not specificly stated in the journal.

Seems to be a mixed bag, Lumpies example is really wtf?!, although I dont think its representative the BG series had definatly to much of such crap.
 

Hamster

Arcane
Patron
Joined
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Location
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Lumpy said:
"A man distracted me in a bar, telling me the story of how his necklace was stolen by some kobolds, and then he robbed me. Not wanting to create a fuss, I decided not to confront him, but rather look for the kobolds, since he may have been telling the truth. I have a feeling that if I bring him the necklace, he'll give me my money back."
Approximate transcript from your diary is Baldur's Gate.
Yes, i remember this guy. Absolutely terrible quest, no arguments here.
NPC's who will give you quests immediately after initiating dialogue, without even any dialogue options for you, were spoiling the impession too.
 

Lumpy

Arcane
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
8,525
From a walkthrough

- Zhurlong's Boots
In the Burning Wizard Inn you will find a "pesky" thief named Zhurlong. He was going about his business (stealing from people like you) and had his Boots of Stealth stolen by some Hobgoblins. You can find these Hobgoblins to the south of Beregost. Oh, and did I mention that he swipes gold from you everytime you talk to him? Return the boots to get your gold back, and to get a reward: 300 exp, 100gp (plus whatever he stole from you). Or you could keep the boots, they are Boots of Stealth (stealth +35%). Or you could give him the boots, then kill him and take the boots back, suffering no loss in reputation.
Zhurlong: Beregost (x 2649 y 2030)
Hobgoblins: Area S of Beregost (x 1865 y 2449)
 

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