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Why does Codex think NWN2 will [insert negative adjective]?

Azael

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I'm cautiously optimistic about NWN2, it's likely going to have a better OC than the first game, but I won't rush out and buy it until I know more about it. KoTOR2 was good at first sight and just fell apart at the end and even a pretty great game like Torment was less than satisfying in the end game, hopefully NWN2 will manage better but I'm not too hopeful considering the rumors of it being rushed by Atari.
 

Atrokkus

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VD, what do you think about some of the devchat answers? i mean, if one just swallows it blindly, it looks like a totally bitchin rpg. How much of it do you think actually is there?

But if at least such a basis is set, it's real worth a try.

Besides, the toolset looks great, I think we might have some nice rpgs coming up later even if OC sucks again.
 

Vault Dweller

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metallix said:
VD, what do you think about some of the devchat answers? i mean, if one just swallows it blindly, it looks like a totally bitchin rpg. How much of it do you think actually is there?
Which ones in particular? I saw the chat log, but didn't see anything overly exciting. Perhaps, I overlooked something.
 

Volourn

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"NWN1 was a retarded crpg with null dialog options or role-playing opurtunities."

Stop lying.
 

Old Scratch

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I don't think NWN2 will totally suck. In fact, I have a feeling the OC will at least be much better than for the original. Just how good it will be remains to be seen though.
 

Atrokkus

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Which ones in particular? I saw the chat log, but didn't see anything overly exciting. Perhaps, I overlooked something.

Something like ths:
<metalllix|rpgplanet-ru> Will side-quests be interconnected? Will my actions in one quest have repercussions on the others?
Nathaniel Chapman : Yes! There are many quests in the game that are "either-or" type scenarios, and there are quests that require you to make choices that will come back to haunt you later... or can send you down very different paths in terms of who you're working with/for.

Eric Fenstermaker : You are specifically taken to task on many decisions you made -- some of them even seeming incidental at the time.
 

Roqua

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Volourn said:
6. Most Codexers hate turn base with real time 'cause they're stupid.

Most Codexers, including you, you stupid fuck, don't understand what they type. Turn-base with real time, huh, genius? Its real time or rt w/ pause. Kotor is real time w/ pause. All ie games are rt w/ pause. Diablo, sacred, etc is rt. Tb w/ rt is retarded. Turn base indicates taking turns. Timed attack sequences that are called turns but play out in RT is still RT. Phased based would be you chose all the actions, enemy chooses all actions, and then it plays out in one round via turns (ala wiz 8).

TB can be one of two things. You take all of your turns then the enemy takes all of his turns, or each character and npc take their individual turns separately (SS vs. ToEE)

Real time, of course, indicates that all actions occur in real time. All attacks are time based. Whether it be tied to turns or a timer (kotor vs. gothic).

RT games cannot be played in turns, only rounds, so even with the autopause function checked off for every event, you can’t play in turns, only rounds. So, at most they can be considered round based, or semi-phased, but never TB. When you unpause in Kotor or NWN or the IE games, everyone starts moving. It doesn’t matter if actions are tied to a timer that is broken down into segments called turns for that round. Then you have hybrid systems that can be played either way, such as Arcanum. You could play in either RT or in TB mode. But you could never play in TB w/ RT mode because no one can because that is retarded. Almost as retarded as you and 99% of the posters here.

Think of it like cards. Poker could never be played without turns and neither can TB combat games. Whereas, in craps, everyone can bet at almost any time, regardless of who is rolling the dice that round. While both are gambling, they are two very different types of gambling.
 

Pseudofool

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okay, okay, not anti-nwn2, but cautiously cynical of NWN2.....

I think the OC length issue has been resolved, if you wanna a cllick fest = 20hours, if you explore and dialogue and rp = up to 60 hours, one dude in one of hte videos, a large fellow, said up to 100hours, but that sounds like bull....

I DO think NWN2 is turn based, as i understand each turn = 7 seconds, so while it seems realtime your dude can only do something every seven seconds no matter how many times you click, I didn't understand this in NWN1 and it made it seem super lame.

The peeps at Obsidian have acknowledged the complaints abotu Kotor2 ending (god wasn't that a freakin let down), and I agree on Plansescape too, I couldn't even finish it, it loss all sense of meaningfulness once I was 7/8ths of the way through....but the dialogue in both seemed much better than stuff bioware's been puttin out....

Thanks for the replies from everyone non-Volurnrnorn.....

btw way, when does AoD come out?
 

Vault Dweller

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Pseudofool said:
I think the OC length issue has been resolved, if you wanna a cllick fest = 20hours, if you explore and dialogue and rp = up to 60 hours, one dude in one of hte videos, a large fellow, said up to 100hours, but that sounds like bull....
You will be lucky if you get 40 hours. Trust me on that.

I DO think NWN2 is turn based, as i understand each turn = 7 seconds...
You don't understand what turn-based combat is. Recommended Reading.

The peeps at Obsidian have acknowledged the complaints abotu Kotor2 ending...
They always do.

btw way, when does AoD come out?
Probably in the fall.
 

Volourn

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"btw way, when does AoD come out?

Probably in the fall."

Welcome, to game development, VD. :P
 

Gromnir

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Re: Why does Codex think NWN2 will [insert negative adjectiv

Pseudofool said:
I've been lurking for quite a while, and I've come to appreciate the poo-flinging that goes on around here, or at least the pretense of intellectual standards and surly righteousness. And I want to earnestly know why the Codexers seem so anti-NWN2?

Convince me to keep my fifty bucks, and spend it on chicken, or my girlfriend, or on those little peanut butter m&ms I like so much...

lord knows that Gromnir ain't a codexian, so maybe our pov is not as meaningful to you as is theirs, but we gots numerous reservations 'bout nwn2.

the president o' obsidian stated that he would be surprised if the sp oc took most people more than 20 hours to complete.

the nwn2 lead designer left the project & obsidian shortly before the game were set to be released. no explanation were given as to sudden departure.

the new lead has mentioned that areas and content were needing to be cut to makes a release date of october... though we does not know just how much content were killed in this manner. decide for yourself if the NEW lead were brought in to fix problems created by the former lead.

atari is experiencing serious financial distress. it seems unlikely that obsidian will get an extension on the october release date even if the game requires it. furthermore, one cannot be certain the degree to which atari intends to support this game... particularly if initial sales is less than anticipated.

it took bioware 5 years to gets nwn made and they admitted that the attempt to do a sp oc, a mp game, a toolset and a dm client all in one package were probably too much to be trying to do all of those aspects the justice they deserved. the project were simply too big. 5 years... and they woulda' taken more time if atari hadn't forced 'em to release earlier than they had wanted to release the game. to do same thing as bioware did with nwn, obsidian is doing in far less than 5 years. admittedly, obsidian ain't dumping publishers mid-project, and they benefit from having opportunity to learn from bio's mistakes, but one still must consider that obsidian had a major task in front of them when they took on nwn2.. possibly with a lead who were not up to the task.

atari has a reputation for releasing buggy games.

while the obsidian folks seems far more capable than troika, the nwn2 and toee developments is having some disquieting similarities.

(minor quibble) the main antagonist for nwn2 is called the shadow king or shadow lord or shadow spawn or some other such nonsense. sure, the writers need not lets a lame name kill the character, and you can use such clichés to actually surprise folks a bit when you throws 'em a curve ball, but we is suspicious.

etc.

some of the above has been addressed by obsidian developers, but we thinks that there is more than 'nuff reason to be leery of nwn2 at this time. spend $50 on day 1 for nwn2 seems likes a bet with some long odds. suggestion: wait until the first patch is released before you even consider buying nwn2 at full price. by then you gets some good feedback to be making an informed choice, and you is more likely to have a stable game in any event when you does purchase. is a no-lose proposition... less you is one of those game junkies that absolutely needs your crpg the moment a title is released.

is your money. is your choice. give in to impulse, or wait til you is reasonably certain that obsidian overcame the multitude o' potential pitfalls and hurdles we noted above to create a quality game?


HA! Good Fun!
 

Pseudofool

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Thanks VD for the suggested reading, I've got it now, the whole standing still thing while you decide your move I guess is pretty essential to turn based combat....der, on my part.

so maybe our pov is not as meaningful to you as is theirs,
Naw, I always like what you have to say on the bioware boards.

well just have to see on the OC length, I'm hoping for 40 solid hours, but if there's enough dynamic story telling, I can make it more.

About hte lead designer leaving, wasn't most hte "designing" done at that point, and heck, we know he went to Dragon Age, so it was probably for the money and not cuz of problems with NWN2, but the last thing I want to sound like is freakin apologist.

I really hope the shadow-dork story isn't what it appears, flat and obvious...
 

Vault Dweller

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Pseudofool said:
Thanks VD for the suggested reading, I've got it now, the whole standing still thing while you decide your move I guess is pretty essential to turn based combat....der, on my part.
Have you ever played chess? Would you say that standing still is the essential part or is it something else?

About hte lead designer leaving, wasn't most hte "designing" done at that point, and heck, we know he went to Dragon Age, so it was probably for the money and not cuz of problems with NWN2, but the last thing I want to sound like is freakin apologist.
If most "designing" was done, what's Sawyer doing there?
 

Pseudofool

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Have you ever played chess? Would you say that standing still is the essential part or is it something else?
Quite a bit actually, I think my syntax distorted what I meant; the significance is in the infinite time alloted to assess the game and execute a given strategy.


If most "designing" was done, what's Sawyer doing there?
They needed somebody to take the title of "lead designer" whether the were in QA mode or going gold, or giving interviews, etc. PR. But again, I'm speculating like a man with deed to a empty gold mine...
 

Gromnir

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Pseudofool said:
Thanks VD for the suggested reading, I've got it now, the whole standing still thing while you decide your move I guess is pretty essential to turn based combat....der, on my part.

so maybe our pov is not as meaningful to you as is theirs,
Naw, I always like what you have to say on the bioware boards.

well just have to see on the OC length, I'm hoping for 40 solid hours, but if there's enough dynamic story telling, I can make it more.

About hte lead designer leaving, wasn't most hte "designing" done at that point, and heck, we know he went to Dragon Age, so it was probably for the money and not cuz of problems with NWN2, but the last thing I want to sound like is freakin apologist.

I really hope the shadow-dork story isn't what it appears, flat and obvious...

maybe the sp oc will be 40 hours. the qa lead on nwn2 said that the nwn2 oc would be "30-40+ hours" for most folks. nevertheless, as we mentioned already, the new lead noted that cuts were being made... mentioned this AFTER fergie's 20 hour prediction. seems odd that game would go from 20 to "30-40+" after cuts were made. that being said, the qa guys is probably in the best position to know what hours o' gameplay is... even if they does tend to over inflate a bit.

as to explanations for the lead leaving...

*shrug*

ain't like Gromnir got no special contacts or insights at obsidian... 'least not no more. is possible that ferret got a better offer from bio and they needed him asap. is possible that ferret gots a terrible skin condition that requires expensive medications not covered by his hmo... so kanadian socialized medicine seemed like an attractive alternative for him. maybe ferret is a big edmonton oilers fan. is any number of possible explanations, many of which is far more plausible than the suggestions we made. that being said, such an odd and ill-timed departure should makes a person consider the equally likely possibility that all were not well with the nwn2 development.

if we only had 1 concern 'bout nwn2, or even just a couple, we might dismiss those concerns as being typical for any major development. nwn2 seems to have spawned loads of such questions and concerns. am just not feeling real confident 'bout nwn2 at the moment.

most of the codexian concerns seem like their typical vitriol and bluster. keep in mind that if obsidian manages to get nwn2 together by october then it is further evidence of troika relative incompetence, and many of them still not wanna admit that fact. some codexians need for nwn2 to fail... but even if it succeeds they will dismiss as being the result of hype or more proof that real crpgs is dead... or some other wackiness.

regardless, even if codexian reasoning is twisted, they not necessarily wrong to be concerned ‘bout nwn2. am thinking that more people should be concerned… just not for same reasons that codexians seems to think is important.

HA! Good Fun!
 

Roqua

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Pseudofool said:
Have you ever played chess? Would you say that standing still is the essential part or is it something else?
Quite a bit actually, I think my syntax distorted what I meant; the significance is in the infinite time alloted to assess the game and execute a given strategy.

So every game with a pause option is TB? I played two mmorpgs that had TB (doofus online and red crystal or whatever the name of that other 3d one that got canceled was) and both had turn time limits. Are those games RT?

Wiz 8 has a continuous phase option where the action doesn't stop, and you have to continually assign actions to your party all why they and the enemy are taking their tunrs attacking each other-- is this RT combat?

When people just decide something that goes against any sort of common sense and do not take the time to explain their stance equals crazy. There is no difference between you saying RT really is TB than there is a crazy bum saying aliens destroyed the world yesterday and we’re all slaves in the matrix.

I can decide out of nowhere that my car is fueled by flowers, ovaries, and the blood of small Mexican children, but I wouldn’t expect people that told me it was really fueled by gasoline to believe me just because I said it.
 

Pseudofool

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So every game with a pause option is TB?
Yipes. That's not what I meant anyway. Unless, the beasties, each individually get their own pauses as well, it's certainly not TB. If I added the phrase" each player/character gets a turn of infinite time to assess and strategize" does that help?

Certainly there are some middle ground between pure TB and pure RT. NWN2 will fall in between won't it....or am I missing something.

For me TB can really slow down the story telling of an rpg, like in ToEE (ugg, that first moat house battle took me for-eve-r), but Arcanum and Fallout this didn't happen so much because there were rarely huge battles of 20-some characters each taking their turn. I think there's fine line to walk where if you want to enhance your experience by having "epic battles" but you want to stick to TB rules. If we are dealing with large parties and dealing with a good number of beasties I'm not sure there's anything wrong with taking the RT approach to speed up game play a bit to make sure that the Story and the Roleplaying experience are favored to the rules that guide the game. But I guess some people might prefer rules to story telling, or they are willing to forgo epic battles and such, or they are just very patient creatures.
 

Roqua

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I thought the moat house was done well. In the temples the would throw like 20 weak enemies at you, but that is covered in the Section 8's article as poor design. I also think its poor design in RT systems like nwn and Diablo.

But, in the end, turns indicate exclusion. I take a turn. He takes a turn. We take our turn. Lets say its the Patriot's turn to have a dynasty, that would mean someone(s) are excluded, like the gay 49ers and cowboys and other gay teams who used to be good. In RT systems, nobody is excluded. Evereyones turn is together. Again, poker vs. craps.
 

MountainWest

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Some things that have made my initial "Hey look! It's BIS revived, this game will rock"-attitude drop to "It will probably amuse me for a couple of hours and then I'll autopilot it through":

Kotor2 death system. Don't know if it's a fact.

To quote Bruce Willis: I'm tired of saving the world. This time from "The Shadow King". By the name alone, I'm betting he's yet another ancient evil of treamendous earthshattering power. Yes, he's evil as hell - the kind of evil thats just evil for the sake of beeing the most evil of evil evils. But rejoice! 20 hours of goblin-slaying later, we'll all meet him in some other dimension, exactly when he's about to break free from whatever magic chains been holding him for the last couple of thousand years. Then we'll slay him while he's still recovering. No?

20 hour campaign. Sure, they denied it afterwards but we all know it means we'll have a short game.

NWN1 OC. Let's hope Obsidian have done their own thing.

The impact of Ataris financial situation. Don't know what deal they have with Obsidian, but knowing myself: working under the pressure of uncertainty is a bitch. It sure as hell doesn't bring forth peoples creative sides.

Reading the NWN2-board I can't help getting the feeling that the game is beeing rushed, witch it probably is, seeing the time Obsidian been given and the gigantic task they're supposed to accomplish. Sure, NWN2 will run, but I'm betting we won't see any extras.

Conclusion: I'm getting bad vibes. Hope I'm wrong.
 

Temoid

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NWN1 was pure shit, which is why personally I'm very skeptical of NWN2.
 

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