Why is Fallout New Vegas considered good?

[Litmanen]

Uh, Boone asks for proof, literally "how did you know?" There's even a dialogue where you can truth him if you brought some rando over or attempt to lie and need to pass a skill check.

Oh, boy, if that hangs you up, Recon at McCarran is much worse.

Proofs he never asks to see, anyway. And, plus, proof AFTER he has shot.
And, again, you tell some random stranger "I'm a guard on duty here, would you like to help me to kill some random person for this INCREDIBLE MISTERY of my missing wife?"

Two minutes and you have found the proofs.

Four minutes and you have killed the "mayor".

No one cares.

Six minutes and you have been awarded a godlike companion and an house for free.

No one suspects anything.

 

[Lemming42]

NV is just one of those games where you have to accept that you're the most important person in the world and that everyone will basically do as you tell them, even in situations where it'd be fucking absurd.

Ranger captain is planning to execute his own captured soldiers and storm a Legion base... but if a random postal worker walks up and says s/he can do it better, he and his entire army will stand back and watch it happen.

NCR is planning to take over Primm, but a random postal worker's walked over and said that Primm should go to some guy from a nearby prison (who was also doing nothing before the Courier arrived). NCR shrug and leave... or, alternatively, the Courier (who is a civilian new to the area with no NCR affiliation) walks down to the local base (which nobody else could be bothered to do) and demands more troops for Primm, and the NCR immediately oblige.

Courier's slaughtered every member of the Legion they've met, Caesar sends an envoy to tell them that they're forgiven and should come be the most important person in the Legion at once, and in charge of Caesar's brain surgery (lmao).

Nobody in the world does anything until the Courier shows up and does it for them; people might occasionally have opinions about things but they almost never feel strongly enough to actually try and stop the Courier from making world-changing decisions on their behalf. The writing has value if you accept that the NPCs tend to be representations of ideas or mouthpieces for ideologies, rather than actual people who act in believable ways. If you take the Primm quest as a representation of events designed to convey that the NCR are stretched thin and that they're mired in mismanagement, then it works. If you assume that what's happening on screen is a literal representation of events, then it's utterly insane.

 

[ind33d]

Obsidian should be allowed to make a Starfield: New Vegas where they just reuse the assets and make an actual video game like they did with FO3

 

[Hellraiser]

Obsidian should be allowed to make a Starfield: New Vegas where they just reuse the assets and make an actual video game like they did with FO3

You want current day Obsidian, the people most famous for The Outer Worlds, to make a game using Starfield's shitty engine, without the benefit of having something like the Van Buren design documents or an established non-cringy worldbuilding to use as a basis? That's not going to end good, I think even NV-era Obsidian would have had issues salvaging it unless they had some existing good idea for a space romp RPG.

 

[9ted6]

FNV is not so much considered "good", as it is considered the least shitty 3D Fallout... which is still pretty crap.

That seems like the common take. "It's shit but FO3/4 are more shit"

Obsidian should be allowed to make a Starfield: New Vegas where they just reuse the assets and make an actual video game like they did with FO3

You'd be required to enter your pronouns and your character's before you can even install the game.

You are an authorized agent of the Mojave Express Package until delivery is complete and payment has been processed, contractually obligated to complete this transaction and materially responsible for any malfeasance or loss. Failure to deliver the proper recipient may result in forfeiture of your advance and bonus, criminal charges, and/or pursuit by mercenary reclamation teams. The Mojave Express is not responsible for any injury or loss of life you experience as a result of said reclamation efforts.
the courier knows nothing about shit going on in NV, but he can infer something like:
"oh boy, ive lost the package, and the package seems to be rather important, because some guys almost killed me for. if i dont recover it, the client will be very mad at me, and this time i may not be so lucky" thats your motivation to recover and deliver the chip. afair you can even skip benny and the chip if you commit to ncr route, solving all your problems the other way

No, that actually makes less sense. There's no reason you as the courier couldn't go report that you got shot and your package was stolen so those mercenary reclamation teams can go find it. That note eschews you of responsibility. That said greed or revenge aren't bad motives though and NV at least does it better than 2.

 

[Sigourn]

NV is just one of those games where you have to accept that you're the most important person in the world and that everyone will basically do as you tell them, even in situations where it'd be fucking absurd.

The story of RPGs.

That aside, I overall agree that New Vegas' writing isn't as strong as people think. I could say the same for most RPGs loved by the Codex, like Morrowind.

 

[gruntar]

NV is just one of those games where you have to accept that you're the most important person in the world and that everyone will basically do as you tell them, even in situations where it'd be fucking absurd.

The story of RPGs.

That aside, I overall agree that New Vegas' writing isn't as strong as people think. I could say the same for most RPGs loved by the Codex, like Morrowind.

I think its as good as you can get in a nonlinear open world cRPG with multiple joinable factions and possible endings. Its much easier to tell interesting story in linear games like Planescape: Torment or Deus Ex.

 

[Sigourn]

I think its as good as you can get in a nonlinear open world cRPG with multiple joinable factions and possible endings. Its much easier to tell interesting story in linear games like Planescape: Torment or Deus Ex.

Agree.
I think New Vegas gets a lot of flak precisely for the reasons people enjoy it so much: they don't like how the different choices are written, ignoring that having completely linear quests is far easier to deal with.

Some of the criticism is nonsensical to me, e.g. the ants quest from the Mojave Outpost. That shit happens in real life. Not the ants, but having to obey orders without questioning.

 

[Lemming42]

The story of RPGs.

To a degree, yeah, but New Vegas feels particularly bad with it given that we're meant to be in the middle of a huge power struggle yet nobody does anything at all until the player walks over to them. But all the NPCs are so bland and wimpy too, half the time entire factions just roll over to the Courier's demands.

The Vault Dweller determines the fate of plenty of places but it's always framed as something that's happened outside your control - for example, Killian invites you to take part in his plot to get Gizmo because you chanced upon an assassin trying to kill him and you stepped in to help, so he knows you're trustworthy, and it's a plot he was planning to do anyway. It's written so that the player feels more tangential to wider events - the assassin struck independently because Gizmo is proactive in trying to remove Killian, and Killian had the bug ready because he's equally proactive in trying to stop Gizmo. The Vault dweller wandered into a situation that was already reaching boiling point.

In New Vegas it'd be more like you walk into Junktown, where Killian and Gizmo are both sat in their offices waiting for someone to tell them what to do. You tell Killian you think Gizmo should take over, Killian says "I'm not sure about that", you say "[Speech 20] It'd be good for the town", then Killian nods and leaves. The quest structure in NV isn't dissimilar to Fallout 1 and I don't have a problem with the player ultimately deciding what happens to, say, Primm, it's just that the way it's presented makes everyone look insane and makes the player feel like a celebrity, which is a bit embarrassing.

 

[Atlet]

Why is Fallout New Vegas considered good?​

It's not. Close topic, ban OP.

 

[Sigourn]

To a degree, yeah, but New Vegas feels particularly bad with it given that we're meant to be in the middle of a huge power struggle in which nobody does anything at all until the player walks over to them. But all the NPCs are so bland and wimpy too, half the time entire factions just roll over to the Courier's demands.

It's not any different than Morrowind.
New Vegas is massive compared to Fallout. What I mean is, Fallout being such a small game, it was easier to add more depth to its individual quests. I agree more urgency in New Vegas would have been great. I welcome it in any RPG. Seeing Goodsprings massacred if I decide to leave without helping the town or the Powder Gangers would have been really cool.

I feel like the Legion questline is exactly what you are talking about because they are the ones trying to break into the Mojave. Meanwhile the NCR is content with things being as they are. Hence why you are sent to sabotage the monorail and, if you decide to side with the NCR, your job is to stop the Legion from doing so. Same with assassinating Kimball/protecting him. The Legion is the proactive faction in Fallout: New Vegas.

 

[rubinstein]

thats actually fair, 9ted6, i was wrong. i tried to defend this earlier, but gave up, theres not much to defend.
benny executes his plan terribly. he tries to kill the courier, which is pointless, because many people of goodsprings saw him and the khans horsing around in the town. afair House predicts/already knows who stole the chip anyway, but if he wasnt sure, he would quickly learn the truth as he is a resourceful man. even without Victor around to save the courier, he could simply hire some mercanaries to do an investigation for him. at some point they would end up in prospector saloon and simply ask: "have you recently seen one of these men from these pictures, Trudy?"; "yes, this one here. he and some khans visited us recently. one of the bastards broke my radio. then we heard a shot from the cemetery and nobody saw them anymore"; "Thats enough, thanks". thats enough...
if it wasnt for a freshly acquired dent in the head, and all the spectacle benny did, it would have never been obvious for House whether the courier actually collaborated with benny or not. that would make courier a target for a reclamation team. this could be potentially very unpleasant. but you are not faking getting shot in the head and surviving. only a sadist would harm the courier after learning he did not help benny. this is a very weak motivation to go after benny.

i fully agree with this though

I was a courier, I have been shot and then saved by miracle. Why should I set on a quest to find some criminals that would kill me again, maybe? The first thing would be to escape and make a new life in a better place.

revenge motivation is also very silly, when you think about who the courier most likely is. hes a low-life, a nobody compared to this new vegas boy in nice clothes, with a nice gun, who is able to hire mercenaries. finding a new life in a better place is definitely the the best direction for courier to take after such encounter

so revenge motivation is stupid and farfetched. and no grave consequences from failing the job, as it was clear courier did nothing wrong or malicious.
courier indeed had no reason to purse benny... and then we get to the 2nd battle of hoover dam...

 

[Lemming42]

It's not any different than Morrowind.

I agree, I got yelled at a while ago for saying Morrowind's guild quests were almost universally terrible and that the game has virtually no reactivity. Although the writing of MW quests is generally better at giving the impression of things going on outside the player's control and a world that moves outside the player's vicinity, even if the game never shows it.

I feel like the Legion questline is exactly what you are talking about because they are the ones trying to break into the Mojave. Meanwhile the NCR is content with things being as they are. Hence why you are sent to sabotage the monorail and, if you decide to side with the NCR, your job is to stop the Legion from doing so. Same with assassinating Kimball/protecting him. The Legion is the proactive faction in Fallout: New Vegas.

That's interesting. I've never done a full Legion playthrough because they're too annoying and the temptation to just kill everyone the first time you're invited to the Fort is too great, but it is a fair point that, when you're siding with the other factions (who are extremely passive and reliant on the player), the Legion does seem to be the one group actively causing trouble in ways that aren't instigated by the player.

They still suffer from the same start-of-Act-2 insanity as everyone else though - by that point the player has killed key figures like Dead Sea and Vulpes, liberated Nelson and avenged Nipton, killed countless legionaries, left hit squads lying dead on the road, and possibly even laid waste to Cottonwood Cove and rescued the slaves. So Caesar - who already has the platinum chip and is holding all the cards - declares a total amnesty and invites you up to his tent, then hands you the platinum chip and trusts you to go use it in the bunker down below, because... you've been so amiable toward him so far and there's just no way you'll betray him, I guess, then he's shocked when he's lying dead on the floor of his tent fifteen seconds later. That's my main impression of the Legion and it makes them look as dumbly reliant on the player as everyone else overall.

 

[Lemming42]

if it wasnt for a freshly acquired dent in the head, and all the spectacle benny did, it would have never been obvious for House whether the courier actually collaborated with benny or not. that would make courier a target for a reclamation team. this could be potentially very unpleasant. but you are not faking getting shot in the head and surviving. only a sadist would harm the courier after learning he did not help benny. this is a very weak motivation to go after benny.

When you go to the Mojave Express office in Primm, they basically don't know who you are and don't seem too bothered about the lost package. I doubt they gave your info to House, who only knows of you because of Victor, so the Courier wouldn't have any reason to expect some kind of retribution from the mystery client, especially since the obvious target for that retribution would be the Mojave Express itself rather than a random nameless employee.

finding a new life in a better place is definitely the the best direction for courier to take after such encounter

Definitely, and there's a few lines of dialogue in the game that can imply that the Courier is originally from California. Every time I get to Mojave Outpost during the first act and see the border, I'm just thinking... why wouldn't I go home at this point? Benny doesn't matter, the lost package doesn't matter, the Mojave is horrible and is considered as such in-universe, and there's no real motivation to go on a holiday to Vegas itself. The most logical thing the Courier could do right after waking up in Goodsprings is 100% to just go home.

 

[rubinstein]

When you go to the Mojave Express office in Primm, they basically don't know who you are and don't seem too bothered about the lost package.

thats interesting, i forgot about this detail. however this sounds more like ME being dismissive about the delivery rather than being unaware of it, or perhaps its just Nash. do you really think house wouldnt have been able to backtrace the courier? benny learnt couriers route from Houses network. victor arranged the deal. most likely there are some people from ME we never met who know more. but thats just a theory. maybe you are absolutely correct and House wouldnt be able to find courier.

 

[Lemming42]

House knows of your location as soon as you're in Goodsprings, but the Courier themselves wouldn't have any reason to suspect that. As far as the Courier knows, there wasn't even anything unique about the package - the first time you even learn that you were one of several couriers sent to the same address and that the packages were considered unusual is when you contact the ME.

As far as the Courier is concerned at the point the game starts, they got jumped by thugs who stole their package, which isn't uncommon when you look how many raiders there are lurking on the roads and ambushing caravans and traders. You're not the first person who got mugged and you won't be the last, and the only slightly unusual thing was that in your case the bandits were led by a guy who looked a bit out of place. There's definitely no reason, at the point you regain consciousness in Goodsprings, to suspect that you're in any further danger or that there'll be any unusual consequences waiting for you beyond whatever the usual penalty for losing a generic package is.

In a lot of ways, it gives an even more convincing reason to just leave the Mojave - the only thing logically waiting for you if you stick around is a fine/lecture/whatever from Nash for messing your delivery up.

 

[Ash]

Oblivion:

Oblivion with Guns:

Oblivion with Guns and Skill Checks:

If this really is the codex's thinking then it's really low brow. Of course you're just memeing, but still. Even shitty "oblivion with guns" (FO3) is far better than shitty Oblivion by virtue of things like traditional RPG systems, and more/better systems in general.
Then New Vegas took almost everything bad about FO3 (which was a lot) and made it good.
Then mods took New Vegas even further, if you install the correct ones.

New Vegas certainly isn't perfect, but for a post-mid 2000s (mass decline of the industry) game it is simply a blessing.

 

[GamerCat_]

NV is just one of those games where you have to accept that you're the most important person in the world and that everyone will basically do as you tell them, even in situations where it'd be fucking absurd.

Ranger captain is planning to execute his own captured soldiers and storm a Legion base... but if a random postal worker walks up and says s/he can do it better, he and his entire army will stand back and watch it happen.

NCR is planning to take over Primm, but a random postal worker's walked over and said that Primm should go to some guy from a nearby prison (who was also doing nothing before the Courier arrived). NCR shrug and leave... or, alternatively, the Courier (who is a civilian new to the area with no NCR affiliation) walks down to the local base (which nobody else could be bothered to do) and demands more troops for Primm, and the NCR immediately oblige.

Courier's slaughtered every member of the Legion they've met, Caesar sends an envoy to tell them that they're forgiven and should come be the most important person in the Legion at once, and in charge of Caesar's brain surgery (lmao).

Nobody in the world does anything until the Courier shows up and does it for them; people might occasionally have opinions about things but they almost never feel strongly enough to actually try and stop the Courier from making world-changing decisions on their behalf. The writing has value if you accept that the NPCs tend to be representations of ideas or mouthpieces for ideologies, rather than actual people who act in believable ways. If you take the Primm quest as a representation of events designed to convey that the NCR are stretched thin and that they're mired in mismanagement, then it works. If you assume that what's happening on screen is a literal representation of events, then it's utterly insane.

This is particularly amusing considering that the primary theme of the game is power and effective government. Regardless of what you choose, whose arguments sway you or where your biases take you, the structure of the game says that the only way that anything gets done is if the most competent man in the room just does what needs doing. This is how the NCR gets its win, this is how Caesar gets his win, this is how House gets his win, this is how the player/Yes-Man gets his win.

In the case of the NCR this is a clear self-own. They can only be effective as far as they disregard what are supposed to be their foundational principles. The NCR can only get anything done through fundamentally un-NCR methods. Caesar has a better case, he seeks to impose discipline and uniformity in people, but for pragmatic ends. He lets exceptional human outliers do what they will, understanding that this is simply more effective. But House, the whole structure of the game is a giant vindication of House. House is a player character compared to everyone. His competency and agency are on another level. If you empower and unleash him he will be to the problems of the world what you are to the problems of New Vegas. He is unfathomably powerful and doesn't give a fuck about anything but results.

The NCR are the good guys according to the will of New Vegas God. They bear the Good Karma. But it's pretty much impossible to support them and maintain any kind of personal integrity. There is no option to save the NCR by following NCR procedure and values. At which point I believe one would be right to ask "why value this institution at all?" Was this deliberate? An accident? Something they were kind of thinking about but wanted to leave to us?

It raises an interesting revival of the old debate about action movies, and whether or not there's something inherently fascist about certain forms of entertainment. Is it possible to make an anti-war film when all presentations of war excite us? Today we can ask, is it possible to make a democratic rpg, when all rpg's present a world that moves on the agency of an exceptional and unbound human actor?

 

[orcinator]

Can you imagine if you were about to recommend a book to someone but you had to mention that sometimes the ink just smudges and fills a whole page and the words are unreadable, and that it's also partly written in Swahili for no reason, and that some of the pages are cut into triangle shapes and will be arbitrarily harder to read and turn, and that also the cover is made of sandpaper and will hurt your hands. And also that each copy of the book is slightly different and that yours might just have random pages missing. It'd be fantastic.

That's just House of Leaves

 

[9ted6]

Fallout writing isn't good past the first 3/4s of the first game anyway. At least 2 understood it and just gave up and did whatever stupid shit it wanted. New Vegas tries too hard and fails at looking serious or smart, keeping the setting retarded but pretending it isn't.

 

[Jack Of Owls]

Vanilla FNV was fun for a single playthrough way back when, and I could probably get a different experience if I re-played it again due to at least some C&C but when I attempted a playthrough with my favorite mods (including the brilliant RobCo Certified) last year I grew bored and quit third-way through. If I can't make the game exciting anymore even with mods, all I can do now is sing ♫The Thrill is Gone♫

 

[Lemming42]

Fallout writing isn't good past the first 3/4s of the first game anyway

The endgame of Fallout 1 is the best part! At least, Mariposa and the Cathedral, maybe not Adytum.

 

[9ted6]

Vanilla FNV was fun for a single playthrough way back when, and I could probably get a different experience if I re-played it again due to at least some C&C but when I attempted a playthrough with my favorite mods (including the brilliant RobCo Certified) last year I grew bored and quit third-way through. If I can't make the game exciting anymore even with mods, all I can do now is sing ♫The Thrill is Gone♫

Around the time I gave up on it completely I realized I spent way more time modding it than actually playing it. Same goes for all Bethesjank games, really. Spend 4 hours getting a bunch of mods working then get bored after an hour of playing.

Fallout writing isn't good past the first 3/4s of the first game anyway

The endgame of Fallout 1 is the best part! At least, Mariposa and the Cathedral, maybe not Adytum.

The Master's magic radiation wizard cult massively annoys me, and the way you talk him into self-destructing isn't nearly as clever as the writers and some fans think it is. It's the same shit you do in 3 with Eden but while that gets laughed at all over the place the Master is often called one of the best written villains ever.

 

[rubinstein]

"the mutants are sterile" became kinda a meme in the community at this point, but i believe lots of fans still find master compelling, because:
- presentation and aesthetics. simply the rule of cool applies here. he has a cool model, cool voice acting, cool crib.
- well constructed build up. you learn here and there about him, his army, and his tools. the hub deathclaw quest, convos with harold, computer in the glow etc. then in the endgame there are multiple ways to straight up learn about him. it all makes you excited to finally see him.
- even if the check itself is naive, it highlights that deep down master is still richard grey. once exposed to truth, hes ready to repent for his sins.
- and you still need to know the exact flaw in his plan.

i havent played fo3 in ages, but afair eden seemed to be more of a "we need a villain who can be pushed into suicide with a speech check" checkbox than an actual character, really. very formulaic approach from beth. FO2 tried to avoid this, yet devs also had similar shit in their game. while you cant skip horrigan, you cant reason with president dick too, there are still some crucial npcs with nonsensical writing eager to do a full 180 on their views with a single speech check. perfect example would be charles curling. "A speech check allows the player to awaken Curling's dormant conscience, convince him that he is aiding global genocide, and release the FEV toxin into the airducts of the Enclave. The virus kills all unprotected humans within minutes (resting 10 minutes suffices). Curling inoculates the player and the prisoners through airborne dispersal to protect them."

if Unity annoys you then what do you find compelling in fallout setting? i always felt like master, fev, cathedral, mutants set the tone for the franchise almost perfectly. imo, devs covered red scare, post-apo, and sci-fi tropes well in FO. it was a mix of serious, wacky, and grimdark in good proportions. shit like barely explored psi powers is where its becoming a bit too much, but that was really a minor thing.

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

FalloutNV: It has characters.
BethesdaFO: It has NPCs.