Why so few superhero rpgs?

[Sykar]

City of Heroes did most things right, you really should look up its systems before even starting a super hero game conversation.

Well it's server were shut down so not really an option anymore. Champions Online is either a massive retarded grind or massive cash sink and DC Universe Online plain sucks for me.

 

[ColCol]

lol, this topic grew. Have no idea why it is not showing up in my alerts.

 

[uaciaut]

Aren't RPG's more about taking your average-joe retard and turning him into awesome-o mach 10? Superhero narrative seems to detract from that whole prerogative.

Plus they'd be a clusterfuck to balance.

Superhero theme should probably stick with the action genre D:

 

[ColCol]

Aren't RPG's more about taking your average-joe retard and turning him into awesome-o mach 10? Superhero narrative seems to detract from that whole prerogative.

Plus they'd be a clusterfuck to balance.

Superhero theme should probably stick with the action genre D:

Eh, not really. Plenty heroes start as average joe retard.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Aren't RPG's more about taking your average-joe retard and turning him into awesome-o mach 10? Superhero narrative seems to detract from that whole prerogative.

You could say exactly the same thing about Star Trek and spy movies yet it didn't stop Bioware and Obsidion from making ME and AP.

 

[Tigranes]

You don't get a lightsaber until halfway through Jedi Knight II.

 

[Lhynn]

City of Heroes did most things right, you really should look up its systems before even starting a super hero game conversation.

Well it's server were shut down so not really an option anymore. Champions Online is either a massive retarded grind or massive cash sink and DC Universe Online plain sucks for me.

Guides are still up there.

But yeah, you basically selected two super power pools, a defensive and an offensive one, they could be a lot of things, in the offensive side you had all sorts of weapons, super strength, psy powers, magic, summoning, elements, etc. On the defensive side you had stuff like invulnerability, regeneration, etc. Both pools very varied and very creative. Each pool had 9 (?) skills, each level up you either unlocked a skill or was allowed to asign socketable slots to a skill. Said skills could be outfitted with gems of a sort that gave specific bonuses to one of the variables of the skills, like power, duration, magnitude etc.

There were 4 power origins, you had to select one from natural, science, magic, and mutant, if i remember correctly, and depending on what you chose youd be able to socket different gems into your skills.

You had a shitton of costume options to mix and match to create your own unique snowflake, because they understood that customization is simply the most important part of creating your own super hero. There were tons of things you could do with your character, and always a recommended option if you wanted a functional character.

It was a superb system tbh, i hope the new trend to revive old mmos brings CoX back.

 

[Mystary!]

How about something similar to VtM: Bloodlines or Deus Ex? Vampires and cyborgs are basically super powered.

 

[Norfleet]

Sure, why not? Like I said, practically any RPG is already a superhero game. All that matters is putting the right narrative spin on it, and voila, instant superhero game. I mean, your dudes can fly, teleport, spit fireballs, and shoot lightning bolts from their ass. They can absorb enough punishment to destroy a small city. They've already got more superpowers than most superheroes do. All they need to do is start wearing their underwear on the outside.

 

[laclongquan]

Wrong, a superhero games made for superhero fans wont accept character progression. CP make them lose their immershun, you know~

I like City of Heroes, but essentially they dont have CP. WHen chars level up (to invest more skills) enemies also level up. You dont feel it's progress.

 

[Siveon]

Wrong, a superhero games made for superhero fans wont accept character progression. CP make them lose their immershun, you know~

I think you may have some form of dementia.

 

[Zombra]

I like City of Heroes, but essentially they dont have CP. WHen chars level up (to invest more skills) enemies also level up. You dont feel it's progress.

Uh.

 

[kris]

I like City of Heroes, but essentially they dont have CP. WHen chars level up (to invest more skills) enemies also level up. You dont feel it's progress.

And today esteemed member laclongquan learned about something called "level-scaling", he didn't like it that much.

 

[laclongquan]

LS in offline game has something going for it, like an optimal build get to increase their effectiveness over the time, hence progress. LS in a MMORPG with concept such as DPS and tanking? Bah~ You dont see much difference, ESPECIALLY with developer nerfing OP abilities in the name of rebalance.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Deus Ex had a great superhero feel to it, and that might be why I can completely overlook how easy the combat gets, whilst the significantly harder combat of DE:HR felt too easy. By the time you get a few abilities, you're established as being 2, maybe 3 of a kind, and all the enemies react that way - all their combat 'taunts' are them shitting themselves about having to go up against this goddamn nano tech supesoldier (come to think of it, the slow mo 'fuuuuuuccckkkk' and 'he's too fast! I can't see him!', had a similar effect in FEAR).

And then when you finally get to fight Simons it opens with a baddass-off that's like something straight out of a superhero comic.

Quite a different approach to the usual 'here's a big badass enemy to kill you...oh he died in 2 hits,you must be AWESOME... but oh here's another 10 identical encounters with no reaction to the fact that you just showed how out matched they are when you killed their friends 5 seconds ago'.

 

[kris]

Freedom Force "suffers" of that. While your characters can do amazing feats, they are mostly balanced and severely underpowered in gameplay compared to what they can do in the story or to what typical comic supes can do.
Best example is the Alchemiss, one of the main characters. In the sequel she finds out that she can alter reality and has god-like powers, but you as player can only use her simple magic attacks and hexes. When she gets extremely powerful, she becomes the main villain.
The speeder character of the game called Bullet, he is the fastest superhero in the game and can do some short super-sprints, or has an upgrade where the short super-sprint can do a knock-back effect on an enemy. But he can't super-run at impossible speeds across the maps and catch all the criminals in the blink of an eye, Flash-style.

There are a few powers that are problematic to simulate in a game, even if all can be shown in some way. Superspeed (the super superspeed) and reality altering powers are two that even cause problems for writers in comics. Hence they "depowered" Franklin Richards and don't really have realistic superspeed stories. Hell they even had to (storywise for no reason whatsoever) cut out Quicksilver from the rest of X-menDoFP just because they knew his power could pretty much solve any obstacle or problem.

Below is mostly about supergroups and use of powers. For a single player power/hero it is easy to design the game and enemies around their power. the biggest implemention problem of any power is how it affects the story, not how it is used in combat. You always get the "Why not just use the eagles to drop the ring of power in mount Guldur?" problem. Because why can't your guys know the plans of the enemies when you got a telepath? Why can't they get that object of power when someone can teleport?

1. Reality altering. Only works as a story vessel. Personally I would skip it in a game, is silly anyway.

2. Superspeed. Just don't have it at Flash levels. There are many methods to simulate or put it in a game though, I can think up tree just right now. Otherwise just have a fast character (Spiderman style) who can dodge away and/or have more action points.

3. Telepathy. Telepathy is a problem for storytelling, gameplay-wise (combat-wise) it is easy to implement. If you want to have any sort of story you can't put telepathy in the players hand as they realistically should be able to pry information from anyone at anytime. Hence why they in marvel have invented silly things to stop a telepath like those helmets...

4. Invulnerability. Problem with this power is that it basically eliminates most enemies from being any form of threath unless implemented in a good way or having mostly enemies that can partly break through it. Like super-speed it needs to be limited or you would almost only engage with your invulnerable guy and let the others stand back. (Hm, lets hide Green arrow and Batman in the corner while I take everyone out with Superman!)

5. Teleportation. "Bioware has put a door that can only be unlocked later, everyone looks at Nightcrawler". Again, easy to put in combat with many ways to use it. But you know all those unlockable areas, saving the damsel in distress behind Darkseid (I am sure he kidnapp princesses). "Now that was easy" blink said.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Played it. But action games and mmropg love superheroes. There's an abundance of them. There is no loss to utilize superheroes there. Because it's all action based. It's actual crpgs where there's a lack of superheros.

Dude, what do you think an mmorpg is?

It's an RPG that's playable online... it might have shite, laughable mechanics most of the time but if they were replaced by say, D&D mechanics then how is it not just an online rpg?

I certainly will agree that there is a sad lack in that department, but ability to actually make them has nothing to do with that. (it's mostly just revenue that's the issue.)

Once you go mmorpg or open world action, large spaces fit. It works. Because the abilities of the superhero are constrained not by the superhero, but by the player's ability to utilize those powers. However, stick that power into a traditional crpg, where the character utilizes his powers and you just direct him, and suddenly there is nothing constraining his powers. So, turn begins. You fly away. Combat ends.

There's no reason a single player RPG can't be designed with big spaces - same challenges would apply. Yes, a flying character could escape ground troops. So what? That's not going to help him get inside the bank to fight the robbers.

Once you can leave combat at any time, you effectively have unlimited health. Because once you've left combat, you can do anything. So, fly away, heal to full, come back. Even better, fly in, use heavy resource attacks, fly out, restore, repeat until win. Unless your power is constrained in some way, you are on EASY mode.

Action games constrain you by relying on the player's abilities to control the superpowers, like the hundreds of console action superhero games (with RPG elements). Once the character has control, though, only enemies who have similar abilities to yours are a challenge.

Someone hasn't played the Freedom Force games. Most missions have sections where flying away to heal isn't an option, even though most characters have the ability to fly/run-really-fast/climb buildings/jump tall buildings/teleport. Because you've got to stop the bad guys from demolishing the city, or from killing the civilians, or from getting the mcguffin. The same reason superman didn't fly in and out drinking pina coladas between each villain (though, come to think of it, a jackass superman that did that could be awesome) even back when the average storyline was him stopping crimes that a competent Metropolis police force really ought to be able to handle on their own.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Freedom Force "suffers" of that. While your characters can do amazing feats, they are mostly balanced and severely underpowered in gameplay compared to what they can do in the story or to what typical comic supes can do.
Best example is the Alchemiss, one of the main characters. In the sequel she finds out that she can alter reality and has god-like powers, but you as player can only use her simple magic attacks and hexes. When she gets extremely powerful, she becomes the main villain.
The speeder character of the game called Bullet, he is the fastest superhero in the game and can do some short super-sprints, or has an upgrade where the short super-sprint can do a knock-back effect on an enemy. But he can't super-run at impossible speeds across the maps and catch all the criminals in the blink of an eye, Flash-style.

There are a few powers that are problematic to simulate in a game, even if all can be shown in some way. Superspeed (the super superspeed) and reality altering powers are two that even cause problems for writers in comics. Hence they "depowered" Franklin Richards and don't really have realistic superspeed stories. Hell they even had to (storywise for no reason whatsoever) cut out Quicksilver from the rest of X-menDoFP just because they knew his power could pretty much solve any obstacle or problem.

Below is mostly about supergroups and use of powers. For a single player power/hero it is easy to design the game and enemies around their power. the biggest implemention problem of any power is how it affects the story, not how it is used in combat. You always get the "Why not just use the eagles to drop the ring of power in mount Guldur?" problem. Because why can't your guys know the plans of the enemies when you got a telepath? Why can't they get that object of power when someone can teleport?

1. Reality altering. Only works as a story vessel. Personally I would skip it in a game, is silly anyway.

2. Superspeed. Just don't have it at Flash levels. There are many methods to simulate or put it in a game though, I can think up tree just right now. Otherwise just have a fast character (Spiderman style) who can dodge away and/or have more action points.

3. Telepathy. Telepathy is a problem for storytelling, gameplay-wise (combat-wise) it is easy to implement. If you want to have any sort of story you can't put telepathy in the players hand as they realistically should be able to pry information from anyone at anytime. Hence why they in marvel have invented silly things to stop a telepath like those helmets...

4. Invulnerability. Problem with this power is that it basically eliminates most enemies from being any form of threath unless implemented in a good way or having mostly enemies that can partly break through it. Like super-speed it needs to be limited or you would almost only engage with your invulnerable guy and let the others stand back. (Hm, lets hide Green arrow and Batman in the corner while I take everyone out with Superman!)

5. Teleportation. "Bioware has put a door that can only be unlocked later, everyone looks at Nightcrawler". Again, easy to put in combat with many ways to use it. But you know all those unlockable areas, saving the damsel in distress behind Darkseid (I am sure he kidnapp princesses). "Now that was easy" blink said.

I never understood the Eagles plothole issue. Mordor's toughest beings (possibly the 7 most powerful creatures outside of Gandalf, Saruman, the spider and any Balrogs left around) ride enormous winged mounts and Sauron is watching everything from above - surely any eagle that flies into Mordor gets shredded by ringwraiths.

 

[kris]

LS in offline game has something going for it, like an optimal build get to increase their effectiveness over the time, hence progress. LS in a MMORPG with concept such as DPS and tanking? Bah~ You dont see much difference, ESPECIALLY with developer nerfing OP abilities in the name of rebalance.

But city of heroes wasn't that different from other MMORPGS. They are all about going from one area to the next as you level up.

 

[kris]

I never understood the Eagles plothole issue. Mordor's toughest beings (possibly the 7 most powerful creatures outside of Gandalf, Saruman, the spider and any Balrogs left around) ride enormous winged mounts and Sauron is watching everything from above - surely any eagle that flies into Mordor gets shredded by ringwraiths.

While I personally just used that because it is a well known example I got to defend the plothole. Even if I also think it is silly to bring up!

The ringwraiths were mostly on horse. And even with that it is very difficult intercepting a flier without radar. I never saw them patrol around the mountain. The problem with the eagles was not so much this plothole, it was that they were always used as a last minute rescue. Its like they were just up there checking out what the heroes did and then when they saw that they were fucked they decided to intervene. He used them like that in both hobbit and LOTR.

 

[laclongquan]

LS in offline game has something going for it, like an optimal build get to increase their effectiveness over the time, hence progress. LS in a MMORPG with concept such as DPS and tanking? Bah~ You dont see much difference, ESPECIALLY with developer nerfing OP abilities in the name of rebalance.

But city of heroes wasn't that different from other MMORPGS. They are all about going from one area to the next as you level up.

MMOG I played can be counted on one digit. So I can only say what I play most, which is CoH/CoV.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Yeah, I know. People bitch about superheroes not following the from zero to hero pattern but one of the most popular superhero titles out there - Batman Year One is exactly about a level one Batman trying to get some experience. Not to mention countless hero teams that are all about leveling up level one team heroes. Or for that matter dozens of heroes who just naturally grew in power over years. Superman started out just being able to jump over tall buildings and carry heavy things, now he can move faster than light and probably obliterate planets with his heat vision. Wolverine started out having a better immunity system and healing a bit faster than normal folks. In New X-Men he regenerated an arm burned to a crisp in a couple of minutes. Iceman started out just being able to make snowballs, but in some comic either he or his clone from AOE became some gigantic in ice golem.

In fairness, with Iceman that was consistent with his original portrayal. In the early X-Men comics he's the talented slacker, who is regularly described by others as having possibly the most powerful mutation, but being too arrogant and lazy to develop his potential. Later (but before all the Wolverine worship) he mostly serves as a character foil for Cyclops, who always had the weakest powers of the original bunch but is the hardest training /consumate X-man and consequently far more effective (again, before all the Wolverine worship).

The overpowered Iceman came from AOA, as a 'what if Iceman was trained by the takes-no-bullshit Magneto instead of lovable softy Xavier?' scenario, with his power set being what he 'could' have had if he'd been trained from youth by someone with similar physics-manipulation powers who could also whip some respect into him. Giant ice golem is the leasr of it - he's can regenerate faster than Wolverine by absorbing the moisture from the air to reform his body, travel near-instantly across any body of water or ice, basically anything you'd expect Magneto to be able to do if he manipulated water instead of electromagnetic fields.

From memory, whilst non-AOA Iceman has scaled up along with the general power inflation, he can't do any of that stuff, though there's occasional mentions of how he could have been much more powerful if Xavier had worked out a way to motivate him properly as a student.

 

[uaciaut]

Aren't RPG's more about taking your average-joe retard and turning him into awesome-o mach 10? Superhero narrative seems to detract from that whole prerogative.

You could say exactly the same thing about Star Trek and spy movies yet it didn't stop Bioware and Obsidion from making ME and AP.

What is AP (i assume ME is mass effect which is much closer to action than to RPG to begin with, and story-wise and RPG-gameplay-wise it's p shit anyway.

You don't get a lightsaber until halfway through Jedi Knight II.

Never played that, i thought Kotor2 would be a better example, but again you start as an average joe and evolve back into jedi knight.
It's also a decent+ RPG first and firemost because of how MCA tries to go against the consensus in his approach to RPG's and how this stays true (at least to some extent) in it and how it makes it a better rpg than it would've been otherwise because a good narative intertwines with what makes a good RPG. There was a link somewhere where MCA talks about his philosophy on games and refferences Planescape and Kotor2, look it up it's p interesting.
I mean picture a Kotor2 developed by the Bioware of today - you'd get a Shepard on force steroids which would technically make him even more overpowered compared to everyone else.

Anyway more on-topic - if you're inventive enough and a good enough dev you can probably pull a superhero RPG but it's substantially harder to do so because what defines a superhero is him being much more poweful than the average joe, so you'd have to build a world where this difference between normal mortals and your character is visible but at the same time is challenging and you can grow even more powerful which means you have to throw a shitload of super-villains.

Now what kind of superhero would you be if almost everyone else you interact with (i.e. fight with) is super? And how would game devs try to emulate non-super villains a la Lex Luthor who fight the main char through other means (i.e. this requires actual writing skills and thinking the plot ahead properly).

I mean fuck i'd sooner say a Batman rpg is possible because the fuck has no superpowers but even that's probably better as an action game (is that whole arkham city/w/e it's called series any good btw?)

 

[Tigranes]

IIRC you also spent around 1/3 of the game without JEDI MAGICKS in KOTOR1, so in fact, it's the norm!

 

[Telengard]

Played it. But action games and mmropg love superheroes. There's an abundance of them. There is no loss to utilize superheroes there. Because it's all action based. It's actual crpgs where there's a lack of superheros.

Dude, what do you think an mmorpg is?

It's an RPG that's playable online... it might have shite, laughable mechanics most of the time but if they were replaced by say, D&D mechanics then how is it not just an online rpg?

I certainly will agree that there is a sad lack in that department, but ability to actually make them has nothing to do with that. (it's mostly just revenue that's the issue.)

Once you go mmorpg or open world action, large spaces fit. It works. Because the abilities of the superhero are constrained not by the superhero, but by the player's ability to utilize those powers. However, stick that power into a traditional crpg, where the character utilizes his powers and you just direct him, and suddenly there is nothing constraining his powers. So, turn begins. You fly away. Combat ends.

There's no reason a single player RPG can't be designed with big spaces - same challenges would apply. Yes, a flying character could escape ground troops. So what? That's not going to help him get inside the bank to fight the robbers.

Once you can leave combat at any time, you effectively have unlimited health. Because once you've left combat, you can do anything. So, fly away, heal to full, come back. Even better, fly in, use heavy resource attacks, fly out, restore, repeat until win. Unless your power is constrained in some way, you are on EASY mode.

Action games constrain you by relying on the player's abilities to control the superpowers, like the hundreds of console action superhero games (with RPG elements). Once the character has control, though, only enemies who have similar abilities to yours are a challenge.

Someone hasn't played the Freedom Force games. Most missions have sections where flying away to heal isn't an option, even though most characters have the ability to fly/run-really-fast/climb buildings/jump tall buildings/teleport. Because you've got to stop the bad guys from demolishing the city, or from killing the civilians, or from getting the mcguffin. The same reason superman didn't fly in and out drinking pina coladas between each villain (though, come to think of it, a jackass superman that did that could be awesome) even back when the average storyline was him stopping crimes that a competent Metropolis police force really ought to be able to handle on their own.

Own them both. But FF doesn't have Fly. It has Hover. The artificial ceiling is so low that you don't get Fly. With real Fly, you would be able to travel above all ranged combatants. The ability to fly is one of the greatest positional advantages in combat (in real life). It's the ability to sit in a bell tower with a sniper rifle EVERYWHERE in the world. Picture fighting a hundred ground combatants with guns. A dome represents the reach of each gun, so lots of overlap. But a flyer can fly to the tippy-top of one person's dome and engage just one, remaining out of reach of the other 99, and so kill them all one at a time. He's still engaged in combat, killing them all, but does so from positional advantage. The only way to stop an actual flyer from taking positional advantage is to get in the sky with him. FF puts all flyers in range of ground combatants at all times by artificially constraining the ability to fly to just above ground level.

EDIT: And woe betide you if you go with another RPG convention and let the flyer choose his own weapon. Then he can simply choose the longest ranged weapon in the game and shoot at the ground combatants while remaining forever out of their reach.