Wizardry Wizardry 8 - surviving high level mobs

[Desiderius]

by the time you will have Comm on relevant level that will affect the prices, you will swim in gold anyway

As I said, this is not the case. It makes a *big* difference if you put pts in it and train it early and there's a lot of good stuff to buy from Umpani. Stuff that gets all your Magic schools rolling early with effective spells including lifesavers like Camouflage etc...

 

[Desiderius]

Bloodlust is the absolute worst thing you can be doing with Bard. Melee Bard shouldn't really be a thing in full party anyway, although Bard can guard the flank, but if you want to melee with Bard it takes a ton of practice, which is the one thing Bloodlust won't give you..

SEN gets that sweet, sweet intitiative to get Haste off and that fits better with ranged which Bard can be fine with too. Can also train Artifacts with Stix etc...

Dunno man, I always took bard for my Hard/Ironman runs and turned her into full melee. One lvl of Fighter to get some free points in sword/close combat, then switching to Bard and pumping STR/DEX/SPD and sword/music on every lvl up. Bloodlust + Thieves buckler + all the bard-only armor + ring of the road give tons of bonuses turns her into melee powerhouse. With shitload of SPD, she's starting every fight with Haste and then focuses on dmg dealing and using other instruments situantionally. With front row of fighter/rogue/bard I never ran into any problems.

I was experimenting with ranged Bard as well, but in every case she was inferior to being front line melee with Bloodlust.
Guess it's a matter of taste or playstyle maybe.

OBV on Liz Fighter (Liz Rogue is weird) you get *both* Power Strike and Iron Skin. IS at 6, PS around 8 or 9 then can still get to Reflexion IIRC after that.

Yeah, but getting IS means having to raise VIT to 100, which is a huge investment and not really worth, compared to putting those points into DEX from the get go.

Damage isn't an issue once you get Magic (and Ranged, for that matter) trained and Bloodlust kills everything before you can lol. Gets no attax at distance because Cursed.

100 VIT is Liz only thing since it starts with 75 and you can take it up like 88 at creation. It really isn't that many pts. Not really my style but I can't say that it's bad.

Your team goes in order that they're added to the party, so if you put Fighter first he gets his melee/shield training in, then if he kills stuff ranged can acquire new targets. Doesn't work really well the other way. That's why I like one melee or two at most.

Item stat boosts do *not* improve training chance BTW. Highest chance is 100 in both stat (it just takes average).

 

[Desiderius]

That strategy does require making use of the Front Box so attackers can't reach casters/Gadge in the rear and so will exclusively target front liners. Obv need to use terrain to avoid getting flanked but putting Ranger and Bard on outside flanks usually is enough.

Stave user in the middle if you're into that.

Pulled up last save and had Mook Bard and Felpurr Gadge dumping VTI/PIE lol with a Hobbit Rogue dual-wielding Thieves Daggers in front box. Human Ranger with 96 Alch and 66 Bow and the classic Rawulf Bishop.

Power gaming at it's finest. It (mostly) worked. The STR/DEX Hobbit Sam with the Rogue in front box not really so much IIRC. Crit Strike classes need smaller parties.

Bishop was before Rogue and Sam in Party order to get debuffs down I think. Poison debuffs defenses.

 

[Strange Fellow]

Dunno man, I always took bard for my Hard/Ironman runs and turned her into full melee. One lvl of Fighter to get some free points in sword/close combat, then switching to Bard and pumping STR/DEX/SPD and sword/music on every lvl up. Bloodlust + Thieves buckler + all the bard-only armor + ring of the road give tons of bonuses turns her into melee powerhouse. With shitload of SPD, she's starting every fight with Haste and then focuses on dmg dealing and using other instruments situantionally. With front row of fighter/rogue/bard I never ran into any problems.

I was experimenting with ranged Bard as well, but in every case she was inferior to being front line melee with Bloodlust.
Guess it's a matter of taste or playstyle maybe.

With the amount of good bard-only swag I'm sure this could be quite powerful, but it still seems like a waste of a good bard. Spamming instruments every turn is obscenely strong and the bard is the only one who can do it, while there's plenty of competition for the melee spots in the party.

True, but since like in most cRPGs, economy is seriously broken and by the time you will have Comm on relevant level that will affect the prices, you will swim in gold anyway. You don't even have to abuse the potion selling, money never seemed to be a problem in W8.

I've never gotten enough gold to buy all the stuff I wanted from the blacksmith in the Rapax castle, but then I never looked up the supposed alchemist crafting exploits. I think Sirtech did rather well with the moneysink there, better than most RPGs.

 

[Piotrovitz]

With the amount of good bard-only swag I'm sure this could be quite powerful, but it still seems like a waste of a good bard. Spamming instruments every turn is obscenely strong and the bard is the only one who can do it, while there's plenty of competition for the melee spots in the party.

I see where you're coming from, but in practice there's not a lot instruments to spam every round beside freeze flesh/all later on. I found out that the most optimal way is to start with Haste and go to melee with Bloodlust, and using other instruments situationally (e.g. armormelt, instanity, or said freeze when dealing with rapax). This may be a party-specific thing, since I always take 2 Bishops with complimentary schools, so I got the spell spam covered well, so Bard is filling the role of the archetypical hybrid - buffing the party>going melee>use other instruments as needed (like heal all).

I've never gotten enough gold to buy all the stuff I wanted from the blacksmith in the Rapax castle, but then I never looked up the supposed alchemist crafting exploits. I think Sirtech did rather well with the moneysink there, better than most RPGs.

That's true with Rapax castle being the ultimate money sink, but it's very late game and by then you are probably already fully geared up, depending on your party composition. I remember always buying something there for obscene amounts of gold, but most of my guys already had endgame stuff.
Economy/money scarcity is pretty ok for most of the game, especially mid-game when you have to chose which spellbooks you want to buy for spellpick-hungry Bishops, but later on it goes downhill - not only because you're swimming in money, but also, like in most cRPGs, best loot are drops, not vendor buys.

 

[Desiderius]

Well two Bishops would explain having to fight with Bard lol. Game goes along much more smoothly if you do what classes are naturally good at (start out with points in). That’s a *lot* of grinding to get two Bishops and a melee Bard up to speed. Especially with short fights from Bloodlust.

 

[Strange Fellow]

It'll also massively depend on how much you rest. I try to limit resting as much as possible, so magic users very rarely cast spells every turn, especially not the good shit that costs a lot of spell points. The bard does. Spamming heal all/pandemonium/freeze all/slow/whatever other OP stuff the bard gets that I can't remember, is much better than single target damage in my book. If my party needs a melee dude, I'll take a melee class - the bard competes in the caster category.

 

[Piotrovitz]

Well two Bishops would explain having to fight with Bard lol. Game goes along much more smoothly if you do what classes are naturally good at (start out with points in). That’s a *lot* of grinding to get two Bishops and a melee Bard up to speed. Especially with short fights from Bloodlust.

Never had to grind my 2-school Bishops on any of my playthroughs - this is another myth perpetuated by degenerates on steam forums, i.e. having to spam spells/rest/repeat in order for Bishop to be a reliable caster. Relying only on natural skill levelling is enough, especially that with lots of spells they rarely run out of things to cast, so the realm skills are rising quickly after each fight anyway. Sure they're lagging behind pure casters - this is a trade off for versatility/more spells/more SPs, but imo it's worth it.

With getting Bard up to speed - I'm taking 1 lvl of Fighter for sword/close combat/shield skill boost and then switch class, so she starts with decent combat skills already.

 

[Piotrovitz]

It'll also massively depend on how much you rest. I try to limit resting as much as possible, so magic users very rarely cast spells every turn, especially not the good shit that costs a lot of spell points. The bard does. Spamming heal all/pandemonium/freeze all/slow/whatever other OP stuff the bard gets that I can't remember, is much better than single target damage in my book. If my party needs a melee dude, I'll take a melee class - the bard competes in the caster category.

Fair enough, guess all depends on playstyle/preferences. I tend to build Bard around melee probably cause I want kind of warrior/mage type hybrid class.
Technically Samurai should be that, but in practice he excels in nothing, and it's either taking him for a flavor and building around pure melee, or trying to build him like a intended hybrid, which means degeneracy of spell spamming/resting.

 

[Desiderius]

Well two Bishops would explain having to fight with Bard lol. Game goes along much more smoothly if you do what classes are naturally good at (start out with points in). That’s a *lot* of grinding to get two Bishops and a melee Bard up to speed. Especially with short fights from Bloodlust.

Never had to grind my 2-school Bishops on any of my playthroughs - this is another myth perpetuated by degenerates on steam forums, i.e. having to spam spells/rest/repeat in order for Bishop to be a reliable caster. Relying only on natural skill levelling is enough, especially that with lots of spells they rarely run out of things to cast, so the realm skills are rising quickly after each fight anyway. Sure they're lagging behind pure casters - this is a trade off for versatility/more spells/more SPs, but imo it's worth it.

With getting Bard up to speed - I'm taking 1 lvl of Fighter for sword/close combat/shield skill boost and then switch class, so she starts with decent combat skills already.

Unfortunately that really gimps the ability of your instruments to beat resists/not fumble (fumbling is a risk even at 100 Music when you’re close to required level for instruments).*

Bishops likewise have a harder time beating resists because they’re underleveled compared to other classes. I guess putting your Bard one down “helps” with that by keeping him from outrunning Bishop too far. Having two Bishops helps that too I guess.

Area spawns go by average lvl of party so single Bishop (or Ninja) eventually gets perpetually underleveled compared to the spawns in the later game.

I did play a Bishop as my Priest+ because I found Priest to be too narrow but offensive performance lags the pure casters. Letting him focus on 1 or 2 schools with the other 2 catching up later helps with that and having two would facilitate that while being a little bland.

* - the hardcore dudes (who had the code) basically determined that multiclassing is *always* a negative (overreaction to Wiz7). Only one I sort of like is a Wiz level (I think after Sam4?) on Sam but Sam ends up bad in full parties whatever you do.

The crit classes work a lot better for small parties.

 

[Desiderius]

It'll also massively depend on how much you rest. I try to limit resting as much as possible, so magic users very rarely cast spells every turn, especially not the good shit that costs a lot of spell points. The bard does. Spamming heal all/pandemonium/freeze all/slow/whatever other OP stuff the bard gets that I can't remember, is much better than single target damage in my book. If my party needs a melee dude, I'll take a melee class - the bard competes in the caster category.

I remember trying not to rest too much but can't remember why exactly? Cutting down on respawns? Resting isn't always the safest thing in the world on Expert maybe.

Front Box Sam ends up being servicable if you get to Reflexion ASAP (Hobbit is fastest, still like lvl 12) to train it up. Put him early in party order to make sure your melee turns don't go without a target. Lightning Strikes requires hitting with melee once then having a melee target again the following turn that needs sliced and diced. The problem is that Crit Strikes are never getting there in a full party and most of the spells are offensive but your effective caster level is too low to consistently penetrate resists.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

At some point you end up with enough SP regen you never need to rest and you can drain your whole load every battle.

 

[jackofshadows]

- Don't put any points into magic for Ranger - you have a pure Alchemist, so no need to create a second/gimped Alchemy caster. Pump Bow and Ranged. Ranger is not the best dmg dealer at the start, but later on he catches up, gets multiple shots per round and starts procing instakills left and right.

After playing my last few runs with various hybrids I'd say that's debatable. Extra caster might be useful in many cases but that way you gimp his dmg output by some degree obviously so your advice is valid anyway.

 

[Strange Fellow]

I remember trying not to rest too much but can't remember why exactly? Cutting down on respawns? Resting isn't always the safest thing in the world on Expert maybe.

I can't tell if you're being facetious, but restspamming is degenerate. Powergamers wouldn't understand.

 

[Desiderius]

Powergamers wouldn't understand.

Topic is how to survive. Answer is to git better. Call it whatever name you want.

Extra caster might be useful in many cases but that way you gimp his dmg output by some degree obviously so your advice is valid anyway.

But blasting with your Alch and supporting with your Ranger (Ranger CL is too low to do much reliable damage with spells) is something you'll often want to do competently, which requires decent magic skills. Weapon skills go up twice as fast on hits (4x with penetration) but there's diminishing returns as they get higher. Skill-ups get harder and with Alch damage you don't need as much for Ranger anyway. 80 Bow with good support magic > 90 Bow with none.

The code (I think, search upthread here for other links): https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=899973393

When you qualify for a skill-up average of governing attributes (out of 100) is the chance you get it, but there's a factor that lowers the chance the higher the skill gets.

I don't play Alch at all (Alch only utility spells via Ranger) because I want to mostly do debuffs so my physical attacks hit and penetrate more often to get those skills up. I don't count this as even grinding because it's a natural way to play to prevent wipes. Training magic before resting is natural too and pretty quick, but since fights last longer I rest less to lower respawns and number of needless fights. Win win.

Nukes = lower skills throughout party, though it's good to have them for emergencies. Can rest spam and nuke respawns of course but that seems more powergaming than just playing with debuffs and hits with less rest.

Poison debuffs enemy attax and defenses so a front box Rogue with a race that can unlock Reflexion ASAP acts in a manner similar to a debuffing caster while also tanking (which trains his defensive skills). Dagger is the only weapon skill not governed by STR so can still get good hit/penetrate chance with modest STR. Shield Fighter still does more damage when you need it so not sure it's worth it, but it's a fun variant.

 

[Desiderius]

This is good for judging relative value of stats and skills:

https://i45.narod.ru/wiz/stats.html

The thing is is that if you don't need to unlock the Elite skill (Power Strike etc) then you can get to good enough in a stat then use levelups to get a better spread.

Ranger wants to get to 100 SEN for Eagle Eye but Reflexion is less important, so 80 DEX is good enough (I think they figured out the stat contribution (to hit chance etc) is stepwise every 20).

Skills have thresholds that turn on more opportunities for them to level up (like needing a certain amount of Scouting to find the hidden stuff in Monastery) so it can be worth it to max those while letting weapon skills for instance go up naturally as long as you're hitting and penetrating. For RP and powergaming I go all-in on class special skills (like Ranged Combat for Ranger) since they give you more bang for the buck. Once they get to 75 fast that frees up pts to shore up the weak stuff.

Example for Ranger covering Alchemy:

I chose Human because there's really nothing you want to straight up dump.

At creation max SEN to the pt where you can get to 100 in the fewest chunks of 3. Then max it as you level.

Get DEX to 80, INT to 80, and STR to 60.

Skill pts in Ranged Combat, Bow*, and Scouting until Alchemy turns on then all pts in Ranged Combat, Alchemy, and Schools (get them all up to 10 minimum - using all your schools gets Alchemy up faster)

**Use the highest bonus arrows/bolts you have access to** (buy them) so you're hitting and penetrating - that's how Bow and Ranged Combat will go up. On the hardest fights obviously switch to what's most effective

This is super important. But if you have the fight in hand heal your dudes or replenish their stamina to get your School skills going - this is the hardest part.

This guy is a good resource (and has a nice mod, you can talk to him on Discord I think):

https://www.jeffludwig.com/wizardry8/

The icons on the right are menus of spell lists etc...

* - think the save I loaded that Ranger started out maxxing Scouting, Mythology, and Ranged Combat and let Bow raise naturally *the whole game*. Umpani Base has +3 Arrows and Hunter's Quarrels are an easy +2. That's worth like 30 pts of Bow skill. Mythology is crucial so you know which debuff to use on which mob. It goes up naturally but giving it a boost gets it to 75 faster and reveals more info earlier so you can play better.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Let's just say that a lot of recent posts and points itt are... questionable.

Melee bard is very good btw. Ironically, it's also one of the extremely few builds where investing in vit makes a lick of sense.

 

[Desiderius]

That’s the point, it doesn’t there either.

VIT is the controlling stat for zero skills. You get the same Stamina from STR, which *is* the controlling stat for a ton, and needed by Bard/Gadge to carry their shit.

Now you don’t want negative HP (which is why I made Rawulf Bishop), but Bard doesn’t have to worry about that anyway. The decent Bard races start with solid VIT and Bard gets more HP on level.

Let's just say that a lot of recent posts and points itt are... questionable.

Well the hardcore dudes bullied me into figuring out Expert Vanilla. And we’re back to people ragging on my recommendations without having tried them or thought through the logic.

As long as you leave the Monastery before lvl 6 (you’re coming back anyway so you can just leave without holding the lvl if you want) you can beat the game any number of ways.

Debuff with tank(s) in front box to give you time to hit/penetrate a lot/cast support spells is the way to do it with the highest skills and least amount of grinding.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Dude, let's just say that you've embarrassed yourself pretty badly with the "advice" given here and also previously on topic of wiz8 (it was you who once said psionic is the best class in the game, wasn't it ) and I know very well that going into posting exchange with you will not be nearly as entertaining as arguing about the nitty gritty of classes with DraQ and other individuals who actually, obviously played the game a lot and with whom I used to postwall and let's leave it at that. Unless we get an independent panel of experts to clear up which is better: melee bard or ranger with 80 int, 60 str and lvl up points put into realms as soon as they appear Discuss!

 

[luj1]

Great game. My first entry in Wiz series. After 8 I loved 7 and I really, really loved 6. 6 is probably my fav

 

[Desiderius]

Dude, let's just say that you've embarrassed yourself pretty badly with the "advice" given here and also previously on topic of wiz8 (it was you who once said psionic is the best class in the game, wasn't it ) and I know very well that going into posting exchange with you will not be nearly as entertaining as arguing about the nitty gritty of classes with DraQ and other individuals who actually, obviously played the game a lot and with whom I used to postwall and let's leave it at that. Unless we get an independent panel of experts to clear up which is better: melee bard or ranger with 80 int, 60 str and lvl up points put into realms as soon as they appear Discuss!

One of us has tested both options, and it isn't you.

Have you ever even occupied the first box? Just because something is unconventional doesn't make it wrong.

My Ranger doesn't need as much STR because it's hitting debuffed mobs, which means it's also hitting and penetrating more often which is more skill-ups. The higher the INT the higher Alch goes up meaning more cash*, better items (including Viper Arrows which are +3 and Poison which makes the mob -2/-2 AB/AC). I also train him on +4 Precision Arrows. With debuffs and a good tank in front box you've got more time per fight to get skills. With skills you can switch to high damage items (or Special Arrows) for spiking hard foes.

Scouting and Mythology get points until Alch shows up at which time pts go there and to the schools. Both Alch and Ranged Combat hit 75 very fast which frees up pts to backfill other skills as necessary. High Scout and Myth early means better items earlier, more times for skill to trigger to skill it up, and better ID of mobs, which is better debuffs, which is more hits and penetrates, which is more points.

* - Bard going all-in on Communication multiplies the income generated by fast Alch leveling, and that cash also goes to early spellbooks at Umpani which means better Magic, and training, for team.

As for melee Bard, SPD isn't the controlling attribute for anything it cares about, but SEN *is* and they both add the same amount of intitiative, so I want to max SEN, which unlocks Eagle Eye, so ranged is best fit, especially since DEX is controlling attribute for Music while STR isn't. I'm not dumping STR, it's what I use for Stamina, but SEN and DEX are higher priorities along with decent INT.

Psi is a blast to play (as of course is Alch or Mage) and all-Magic party has been shown to get there fine too. That should be uncontroversial. I just like the Piety Bishop, Fighter (or Rogue) tank, Ranger utility, Omni Gadge, Ranged Bard line-up with a wild card slot to do what you want with**. Rogue should have at least 60 STR though or it won't spike well (that is a mistake I made). Modern Weapons has same controlling attributes as Dagger but doesn't combo well with Poison/Thieves Daggers. Artifacts do.

** - basically designing to maximize efficency of my time/minimize grinding

I can explain what I'm doing, can you? Not embarassed in the least. Played the game a lot myself and tried different stuff. Others have honed the traditional approaches.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Dude, let's just say that you've embarrassed yourself pretty badly with the "advice" given here and also previously on topic of wiz8 (it was you who once said psionic is the best class in the game, wasn't it ) and I know very well that going into posting exchange with you will not be nearly as entertaining as arguing about the nitty gritty of classes with DraQ and other individuals who actually, obviously played the game a lot and with whom I used to postwall and let's leave it at that. Unless we get an independent panel of experts to clear up which is better: melee bard or ranger with 80 int, 60 str and lvl up points put into realms as soon as they appear Discuss!

Questionable advice aside, this is a very monocled opinion! Psionic tends to get a bad rap but it's definitely one of my favorite classes out there up with Alch and Bard.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Psionic gets a bad rep for various reasons, but the bottom line is that it's one of the easier classes to replace with other options that also do other stuff and do not have its weaknesses at the same time until the end game where everyone starts owning anyway. In other words, it's meh as far as meh goes in wiz8, a game with amazing class balance.

 

[Desiderius]

If my party needs a melee dude, I'll take a melee class - the bard competes in the caster category.

"Simplified BAR formula (ignoring potential penalties from dual wield, encumberance or insuficient shield skill):

BAR SINGLE WEAPON = Floor( Floor(( CC_RC + 2 * WPN ) / 3 ) * 2 + Floor(DEX/2) + SUM(ProfessionLvLUpMul * Lvl) ) / 3) + 60

ProfessionLvLUpMul :
4 fighter, lord, valkyrie, ranger, samurai, ninja, monk
3 rogue, gadgeteer, bard
2 priest, alchemist, bishop, psionic, mage"

BAR is Base Attack Rating, CC_RC is Close or Ranged Combat, WPN is weapon skill, Floor means round down, so there are stat/skill break points where it goes up instead of continuously.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=899973393

Divide by 3 because it's averaging the three main pieces, which are:

(1) Combat skills, for melee weighted average of Close Combat and Weapon

(2) DEX

(3) Class factor, where you can see Bard gets 3/4 the value of dedicated melee classes

For instance if your skills are 50, DEX is maxxed, and lvl 10, the values would be 100, 50, and 40 for Fighter but 30 for Bard. Avg is 63.3 vs 60, then with the 60 tacked on it's 123.3 vs 120 (which isn't much, but the skills are unlikely to be the same either).

At max skill and stat and lvl 30 it becomes 200, 50, and 120 vs 90, Avg is 123.3 vs 113.3, with the 60 it's 183.3 vs 173.3, about a 6% difference. Still not that much. Which is why the real Hardcore guys train melee even on their casters.

 

[Desiderius]

Psionic gets a bad rep for various reasons, but the bottom line is that it's one of the easier classes to replace with other options that also do other stuff and do not have its weaknesses at the same time until the end game where everyone starts owning anyway. In other words, it's meh as far as meh goes in wiz8, a game with amazing class balance.

Idk man it gets to the good stuff awfully fast. Pure casters are a little *too* good early/mid which leaves hybrids lagging for longer since fights go so fast. Letting the poor little hybrids struggle along pays off in the end (middle).