Mechanics you wish more games copied?

[agentorange]

Generally any mechanics that raise the stakes or provide a continuous sense of tension throughout the game. People already brought up limited saves, so going even further than that I'd like to see more games make use of save/reload systems that are an extension of the fictional logic of the game. Things like the bio-reconstruction machines in System Shock or the bonfires in Souls games, where the save points are like an additional resource to be kept track of.

 

[Bester]

Limited saves is horrible.

If you want to avoid savescumming on certain mechanics, do something else. Like if you're worried people will savescum after trying to lockpick a chest (with a chance of jamming the lock), keep a separate, timeless state of all locks. Once you break it, you can reload as much as you want and that lock would still be jammed. Boom, problem solved.

 

[Grauken]

It's not about savescumming, it's about limiting saves

 

[Vagiel]

So since we are on the topic of saving. What is the best saving mechanic you have seen? I like the dark souls model but I don't know how well it would work on a real RPG.

 

[agentorange]

So since we are on the topic of saving. What is the best saving mechanic you have seen? I like the dark souls model but I don't know how well it would work on a real RPG.

What do you mean by a real RPG? Anyway at least for dungeon crawlers I really liked the save system in Wizardry Forsaken Lands: normal style of saving with multiple slots could only be done in the surface town, but while in the dungeon you could perform a single slot save and quit--Diablo or rogue-like style--in order to avoid the frustration of needing to save when you have to stop playing the game urgently.

 

[Cadmus]

So since we are on the topic of saving. What is the best saving mechanic you have seen? I like the dark souls model but I don't know how well it would work on a real RPG.

Can't work. It's the same system as in Diablo, dunno where was it introduced first but it relies on stationary respawning mobs and open world and grinding being the focus of the game, etc. etc...
I like limited saves per level the most but I'm also not sure how to implement them. In theory, the savior schnapps is about the best but that doesn't work in an open world game because it is impossible to implement a reasonable amount of it across 100 hours of gameplay and for a linear mission driven game you are better off using limited saves anyway.

Now that I think about it, I can't remember any interesting save systems. I suppose saving in a designated safe areas or towns or some-such should be better than quicksaving. Also, to prevent save-scumming the game should have different fail states that are not fatal, see Gothic's NPCs robbing you mechanics (which was totally wasted in Gothic cuz who wouldn't just reload after that?)

 

[bataille]

RLs' save systems are probably the best. Not being able to undo things provides a lot more meaningful experience; the devs have to tailor gameplay accordingly, though. And I don't think there are any games that have both a long playtime and this save system other than major roguelikes that are 10-20 (let's not evoke Angband's name in vain) hours long.

In most games, ironman mode just doesn't work since the developers don't add features that are pretty much essential for fair 'no loads' gameplay like means of escape (teleport/recall/blink scrolls, general mobility abilities). Most games don't have meaningful 'panic buttons' (since they are not required if you can just reload), and they are mandatory if you can't just load a save file.

I also don't think that 'states' for locks and such is the best solution. As far as I'm concerned, any lock should be openable if you have the according skill and resources to burn. The emphasis should be put on the amount of resources required to pick the lock. In theory, if you have infinite lockpicks (which is unattainable in practice) and the skill, you should be able to pick any lock. To open a level 9 lock while having only 6 levels in picklocks skill, you'd need a lot of luck/lockpicks, but it's still possible. But again, this kind of system would require you to rebalance the amount of resources the player has access to accordingly to the 'no loadings' policy. And that's like making another game, unfortunately.

In other words, one of my favourite features is bound to be exclusive to RLs; and when it's present in other games, it's gonna be deeply flawed on a number of levels due to its peculiar nature that requires redesigning the game with it in mind.

 

[Bester]

It's not about savescumming, it's about limiting saves

So I ran out of saves, and now somebody called me up and I must leave for a couple of hours. And the game punishes me for it? Fuck such game.

 

[agentorange]

It's not about savescumming, it's about limiting saves

So I ran out of saves, and now somebody called me up and I must leave for a couple of hours. And the game punishes me for it? Fuck such game.

your first mistake was having someone who would call you up. or having a phone. anything that takes time away from game is not worth it

 

[Grauken]

I wonder how often that happened to Bester that he developed such a hate-on for limited saves

 

[Cadmus]

It's not about savescumming, it's about limiting saves

So I ran out of saves, and now somebody called me up and I must leave for a couple of hours. And the game punishes me for it? Fuck such game.

Obviously, save on exit and delete the save upon loading works well enough.
I also don't know what bataille means by "RLs"

 

[agentorange]

Bester's mom: Bester it's dinner time, turn your game off and come downstairs
Bester: I can't just turn the game off I have to reach a save point!
Bester's mom: Bester I wont ask again, get your butt down here or no more games for a week!
Bester: BUT MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[CryptRat]

It's not about savescumming, it's about limiting saves

So I ran out of saves, and now somebody called me up and I must leave for a couple of hours. And the game punishes me for it? Fuck such game.

That's why agentorange said that the game requires a "Save and quit" option.

snip

I am not that a fan of roguelike save system for at least two reasons :
- replying and finally beat a hard sequence is fun (so is masterizing a game from start to finish and beat it without dying alright), I like handcrafted and hand-placed content, I like dying a lot, I like short hard sequences that you need to beat not more than once to advance,
- does not work as well for party-based games as it does for single character ones.

I also don't know what bataille means by "RLs"

roguelikes

 

[bataille]

It's not about savescumming, it's about limiting saves

So I ran out of saves, and now somebody called me up and I must leave for a couple of hours. And the game punishes me for it? Fuck such game.

Many games for handhelds have the 'suspend game' option. It allows you to save your state, exit, and be able to resume it later, deleting the save state. It solves the problem while still retaining the limited save system.

 

[Master]

If a game is good i dont mind repeating a fight. If its bad i wont play it anyway. But it can be a problem if a game(usually an rpg) has a bunch of dialog to read or listen all over again.

 

[Bester]

"Save and quit" option.

MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Obviously, save on exit and delete the save upon loading works well enough.

So you propose two systems simultaneously:
1- limited saves
2- save on exit

This creates problems.

1- Limited save is a game mechanic that requires meta knowledge, which I hope you won't debate that it's bad.
2- It can result in situations where HOURS of gameplay are lost. Which is always bad.
3- You're always stressed, debating internally whether to save now or later, always trying to guess what's going to happen, instead of just playing in a relaxed manner, knowing you can always revert back if your char dies. The point of the game is not to ALWAYS BE ABLE TO AVOID DEATH (or get punished by losing 3 hours), but to enjoy the world and your character's life.

Kingdom Come tried limited saves. Then caved in and released a fix 3 days after release. Limited saves is system that tries to fix something that's genuinely problematic, but only introduces more problems.

 

[CryptRat]

1- Limited save is a game mechanic that requires meta knowledge, which I hope you won't debate that it's bad.
2- It can result in situations where HOURS of gameplay are lost. Which is always bad.
3- You're always stressed, debating internally whether to save now or later, always trying to guess what's going to happen, instead of just playing in a relaxed manner, knowing you can always revert back if your char dies. The point of the game is not to ALWAYS BE ABLE TO AVOID DEATH (or get punished by losing 3 hours), but to enjoy the world and your character's life.

- What you describes does not apply to Unlimited Saga for example. You save between missions = dungeons but the game let you "save & quit" in dungeons just so that if you need to take a break as you described before then you can.
- Having to choose when to turn back and walk towards town (the only place where you can save) is a feature of many good RPGs because it goes hand in hand with interesting resource management.

 

[Bester]

Good point. When discussing RPGs in general, I picture Fallout, VTMB, BG, stuff like that. Not games like Unlimited Saga.

 

[Reinhardt]

Saving is ok. What we should limit is loading.

 

[Cadmus]

"Save and quit" option.

MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Obviously, save on exit and delete the save upon loading works well enough.

So you propose two systems simultaneously:
1- limited saves
2- save on exit

This creates problems.

1- Limited save is a game mechanic that requires meta knowledge, which I hope you won't debate that it's bad.
2- It can result in situations where HOURS of gameplay are lost. Which is always bad.
3- You're always stressed, debating internally whether to save now or later, always trying to guess what's going to happen, instead of just playing in a relaxed manner, knowing you can always revert back if your char dies. The point of the game is not to ALWAYS BE ABLE TO AVOID DEATH (or get punished by losing 3 hours), but to enjoy the world and your character's life.

Kingdom Come tried limited saves. Then caved in and released a fix 3 days after release. Limited saves is system that tries to fix something that's genuinely problematic, but only introduces more problems.

Yes, I propose two systems. One to avoid wasting your time when you got RL shit to do but cannot be used to save scum, one to raise your adrenaline and give your in-game decisions weight. Limited saves dont require meta knowledge, thats bullshit. Limited saves dont force you to save perfectly, but they force you to assess the situation carefully or face replaying longer segments which is perfectly fine. However, I dont think they are easy to do in a proper RPG which is what I already said. In Hitman they worked wonders until the retards fucked it up by exchanging them for stupid checkpoints. So no, I dont agree with any of your points and tbh I think you pulled them out of your arse cuz they are kinda spergy and blown out of proportion. You are not ALWAYS stressed, RPGs are not really stressful anyway. You are sometimes stressed if you made the right decision and if you can handle what the game throws at you which is perfect.

 

[vonAchdorf]

RoA camp system, luckily it gets copied by games like Pathfinder Kingmaker.
---
I also like the char-gen of Darklands or Megatraveller, where you have a trade-off between younger characters with less skills (but higher body stats) and older characters with more skills (but lower body stats).

 

[Durandal]

I liked saving in Resident Evil where the amount of times you could save was tied to a resource you'd find more of while exploring the mansion and saving was only possible at savepoints so you have to plan your routes along the dangers carefully, though that's not really suitable for open world games

Marathon had savepoints, which allowed level designers to exert a tighter grip on the difficulty curve in a level, though it hurts extra hard when the savepoints are placed poorly, like there not being one right after the start of a level and dying sending you back to the previous level.

In Outcast you had a gem which would let you quicksave, but by doing so it would make a fuckton of noise which would attract nearby enemies, so you had to be careful where to use it.

 

[Hevnknekt]

Digging up chests in Risen felt so satisfying to me.

 

[TheHeroOfTime]

Time limits. Like Fallout, Dead rising 2 and Zelda: Majora's mask. They add an unique pacing to the games.

 

[Starwars]

Time limits. Like Fallout, Dead rising 2 and Zelda: Majora's mask. They add an unique pacing to the games.

I like the time limit in Fallout, I think it works well for the game. But what I really think is neat is how the Mutant Army will invade certain locations as time goes on. I think that was patched in in one of mod-patches, or the time limit was changed or something. But on my recent replay, I fucked around a bit before heading to the Boneyard and was completely surprised to see that the whole place was in ruins with Mutants all over the place. Such a cool thing.