Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Incline The Age of North America is over. The time of Central-Eastern Europe has come.

Lord_Potato

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 24, 2017
Messages
10,035
Location
Free City of Warsaw
Since the dawn of the cRPG era it was a genre dominated by Americans (with some Canadian support).

The greatest series of the 80s and early 90s - Ultima (Origin Systems/Looking Glass Studios), Wizardry (Sir-Tech), Might&Magic (New World Computing) - were all created in the USA.

The great RPGs of the second half of 90s and first decade of XXI century were also mostly produced there. Bethesda Softworks, Interplay/Black Isle Studios, Blizzard and Troika were American, while Bioware was Canadian. These studios created almost every RPGs that mattered in this era: the Elder Scrolls 2-3, Fallout 1-2, Planescape: Torment, Diablo 1-2, Baldur's Gate 1-2, Arcanum, Vampire: Masquarade Bloodlines. The studios mentioned earlier also had their impact, Sir-Tech (which moved from USA to Canada) with Wizardry 8 and Jagged Alliance 2, Looking Glass with System Shock 2, New World Computing with Might & Magic 6-7.

However the first decade of the XXI Century was also a time of decline that killed some of those companies/studios (Black Isle Studios, Troika, Sir-Tech, New World Computing), while the others were hit by the Forced De-evolutionary Virus in the form of consoles. Bethesda soiled its reputation (while making lots of money) with Oblivion and Fallout 3, games so simplified that they could appel to the masses, Bioware turned from more complex RPGs to tps hybrids with Mass Effect series and even the flash of hope that was Dragon Age Origins quickly perished with its terrible sequel. Blizzard focused on multiplayer market with WoW, which was considered more lucrative than single player RPGs.

In time of crisis the Central Europeans entered the fray. First it was the Germans from Piranha Bytes with the Gothic series - criminally underappreaciated, but great in its first two installments (and then, tragically, killed by decline in its two final installments). Second were the Polish with Witcher 1, which enjoyed some degree of success in Europe and beyond and placed CD Projekt Red on radars that mattered. However, their time of glory was not yet to come. As for Russians and other nations of the region, there were still dormant. Czechs made some low budget blobbers, while Russians have undertaken numerous and failed efforts to create a good Fallout clone. The games that were created during these efforts might bring memories of the failed Ripley-Alien hybrids from Alien:Ressurection and should definately stay forgotten.

And then came the second decade of the XXI Century. The American and Canadian developpers kept on producing even more simplified ("streamlined") versions of their once great games: Skyrim, Fallout 4, Mass Effect 3. Obsidian and InXile, descendants of Black Isle Studios struggled to survive, but found some space with kickstarters, and while their initial offerings enjoyed some degree of success (Wasteland 2 and Pillars of Eternity 1), the next games did not follow this path. Many great names were tarnished by failed spiritual or not so spiritual successors: Torment (by Tides of Numenera), Ultima: Underworld (by Underworld Ascendant), Bard's Tale (by you know what). Bethesda finally got what it have long deserved - universal hate - with Fallout76. Bioware was forced by EA to bet its life on an uncertain project called Anthem, which will propably end in a similar failure.

For Central Eastern developpers however, it was a time to march against the crumbling empire. CD Projekt Red spearheaded the offensive with Witcher 3, in which they finally mastered the sub-genre of open world action-rpg. The Germans from Piranha Bytes, while licking wounds after the Gothic debacle, managed to stay afloat thanks to Risen series, and then attacked with a new take on their memorable formula: Elex. The Czechs from Warhorse decided to beat Bethesda in its own game and created Kingdom Come : Deliverance, a great first person action RPG that did strive for simplification and did not treat players as idiots. A one man company from Serbia provided the world with the best original Fallout successor so far: Underrail. Finally, the Russian bear awakened. The symptoms of this awakening could be observed for some time already. Talent was obviously there, as proven by fascinating Fallout total conversions: Nevada and Olympus. First, the Russian team called Owlcat Games mastered the RTwP formula with Pathfinder: Kingmaker (while still kept their tradition of publishing games handicapped by bugs). Second, the international team from Latvia, Poland, Ukraine and Russia created another worthy Fallout successor: Atom RPG. Hence, the curse of the Russian made Fallout clones was finally broken.

2015-2018 is a time in which Central-Eastern Europeans rose to take the helm of almost every major sub-genre of cRPGs (except blobbers, here the Japanese rule without a threat). The Americans still have the capital, powerful infrastructure for producing games, may still enjoy better sales numbers due to more money spent on all branches of promotion (including buying favorable reviews).

But it seems that the perimeter wall of the Pelennor Fields has been broken and orks are pooring inside. And this time there are no Riders of Rohan coming to the rescue.
And if by any chance someone did not catch the reference:

 
Last edited:

TemplarGR

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck Bethestard
Joined
May 30, 2013
Messages
5,815
Location
Cradle of Western Civilization
Nope. While i do enjoy european RPGs, including most titles mentioned above, i still believe USA has the upper hand. Now that the AAA american industry is going downhill and will go bankrupt soon, they will release their talent and IP for smaller indy companies to rise from the ashes and deliver the good stuff again.

On the other hand, Europeans will always deliver shit games because, with a few exceptions like CDPR, they don't understand what quality assurance means... No attention to detail, no polish, no pride in their work. Just release a few broken lines of code and call it a game. Sorry, but i don't play concepts and ideas, i play video games, and they do have to work well...
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,575
america has never made good games
The Yanks were good when they had the small business mentality. Like the Ultima series. It is when they went big and AAA style that they went into steep decline. The problem is, every one of their studios now, no matter the actual size, automatically conforms to the big mentality. Hence, the decline is maintained.
 

Hamster

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 18, 2005
Messages
5,934
Location
Moscow
Codex 2012 Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014
Hence, the curse of the Russian made Fallout clones was finally broken.

The end times are nigh!

main-qimg-01dc2de9576d37a359dca24bff6ab897
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,247
Location
Ingrija
First it was the Germans from Piranha Bytes with the Gothic series - criminally underappreaciated, but great in its first two installments (and then, tragically, killed by decline in its two final installments).

Spot a guy who've never heard of Realms of Arkania, Legend of Faerghail, Fate: Gates of Dawn...

Zee Germains were doing fine CRPGs since the fucking 1990. But if the "time" is measured in twitchy action games with 3 stats, I wish them all to follow the way of north american developers.
 

buffalo bill

Arcane
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
1,009
Biased selection—you're leaving out Iron Tower Studios, Bluebottle Games, Whalenought Studios, Freehold Games, Wormwood Studios, probably some others I'm not thinking of. Stygian Studios rules, and the new Baldur's Gate clone looks decent, but the companies on my list are the real bringers of incline, imo, way more than e.g. CD Projekt.
 

OSK

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 24, 2007
Messages
8,020
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Here comes another Slavic circle jerk.

I pretty much exclusively get my RPG recommendations from this site, but nowadays I'm always checking the game's country of origin. Anything made east of Germany I have to question. Damn Slavs overhype every shit or mediocre game they churn out. It's because of this I'm afraid I might miss out on some actual gems.
 

oscar

Arcane
Joined
Aug 30, 2008
Messages
8,038
Location
NZ
Westerners have forgotten how to write/been shoehorned into blandness by obese blue-haired redditors (or if you look at the company photos, half of them are obese blue-haired redditors). Central/East European stuff tends to be written by bros, even bros who have seen some shit IRL (ATOM RPG guy recently alluded that some of the interactions and dialogues they did were inspired by post-independence Latvia in the 90s, isolated rural folk asking for news from the outside and using vodka as currency etc).

Pampered western nerds terrified of being labelled some sort of '-ist' just don't seem to have the testosterone to write compelling fantasy anymore.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
20,057
Here comes another Slavic circle jerk.

I pretty much exclusively get my RPG recommendations from this site, but nowadays I'm always checking the game's country of origin. Anything made east of Germany I have to question. Damn Slavs overhype every shit or mediocre game they churn out. It's because of this I'm afraid I might miss out on some actual gems.
For me it is different, as soon as the game is shit I know it was made in USA. USA has not made a good game in years. Even good non RPGs like Phantom Doctrine or Escape from Tarkov are not from USA. In the meantime USA does shit games like Xcom 2 or more CoD clones or shit like Fortnite and such.

Even best modern aRPG is not from USA (Path of Exile).
 

razvedchiki

Erudite
Joined
May 25, 2015
Messages
4,268
Location
on the back of a T34.
another good example why nationalism is bad,somehow the pinacle of popamole gaming (the witcher series) are considered on par with the old classics.......
cant wait for the cyberpunk GOTY 2020 from the usual suspects.
 

Lord_Potato

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 24, 2017
Messages
10,035
Location
Free City of Warsaw
Nope. While i do enjoy european RPGs, including most titles mentioned above, i still believe USA has the upper hand.

Well, from a guy who loves Skyrim and Pillars of Eternity 2 "still believing USA has the upper hand" does not seem like a confident statement. Obviously even in your perception they came quite close.

Spot a guy who've never heard of Realms of Arkania, Legend of Faerghail, Fate: Gates of Dawn...

Zee Germains were doing fine CRPGs since the fucking 1990. But if the "time" is measured in twitchy action games with 3 stats, I wish them all to follow the way of north american developers.

Oh, I played my fair share of Realms of Arkania, I even bought it twice (in boxed edition and then on GOG). ROA trilogy provided a great implementation of the Dark Eye system (propably better implementation than actual games) and mixed blobber exploration with (very basic, but still) isometric combat. However, I do not perceive them as very influential when they were published. How many ROA clones can you name? Gothic legacy lives until today, even in games such as Witcher (the developpers cited Gothic as one of the main inspirations). What did ROA get? Some bug-ridden remakes.

As for Fate: Gates of Dawn, from what I read on cRPG Addict's page, it's only strong characteristic is the size of this game. Otherwise it's neither original or groundbreaking.

Biased selection—you're leaving out Iron Tower Studios, Bluebottle Games, Whalenought Studios, Freehold Games, Wormwood Studios, probably some others I'm not thinking of. Stygian Studios rules, and the new Baldur's Gate clone looks decent, but the companies on my list are the real bringers of incline, imo, way more than e.g. CD Projekt.

Well, the thread was supposed to be a bit provocative at least, and besides I could not enumerate all the RPGs published in the last years... however I do agree, there is still some power in the West. Small studios, developpers who create their games for gamers rather than shareholders (propably because they still don't have shareholders). One man studios, husband and wife studios, that kind of thing. But the Central-Eastern Europeans are on the offensive in all the sectors of the market: AAA with the Witcher 3 and soon Cyberpunk, AA with Pathfinder: Kingmaker, indie with Atom... it's a broad wave. On the other shore of the great sea only American indies can hold the line.

another good example why nationalism is bad,somehow the pinacle of popamole gaming (the witcher series) are considered on par with the old classics.......
cant wait for the cyberpunk GOTY 2020 from the usual suspects.

Oh, I agree nationalism is bad. Patriotism however is quite a positive value. But as you see, in this thread I praise not only Polish, but also German, Czech, Serbian and even Russian RPGs.
 
Last edited:

GrainWetski

Arcane
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
5,102
old-school RPGs don't sell well,streamlined action games with RPGs mechanics sell well,big companies have more employees to pay and can't afford risks,small companies and indie developers however can take risks until they grow bigger and start dumbing down their games to the wider audience.
The Witcher series/CDPR being the prime example these days.
 
Unwanted

a Goat

Unwanted
Dumbfuck Edgy Vatnik
Joined
Jun 15, 2014
Messages
6,941
Location
Albania
As for Russians and other nations of the region, there were still dormant.
Russian gamedev world died in 2008. Before that there was plenty of games, lots of them with some RPG elements(Silent Storm, Sea Dogs and Etherlords being prime examples). Actual "proper" RPG's were pretty dogshit tho(Konung...).
 

Theldaran

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 10, 2015
Messages
1,772
Slavs and aggregates (Polish with Twitcher) are OK in their own right making vidyagames. Still, you may find something different in their mindset if you are accustomed to everything American. With CDPR it's a smooth transition since they've come to fill up Bioware's place, besides CDPR deftly rides the trends like open world and such.

Still I guess that CDPR's best product is GOG, isn't it? It definitely offers something different from Steam (namely, your games are truly yours, you can store them as you like so diminished risk of losing them if bankruptcy, and you can share them freely).

CDPR was tailor-made from the beginning to be a game shop, while I don't think a Slav massive shop can dispute Steam and the newcomers. They can deal with Steam keys, aye, but building such infrastructure is a bit over the top.

As for developers, well, it's true that developing in the East is cheaper, but it should also be shoddier. Still we've seen we just can't trust AAA devs anymore. They'll stick their stinking loot boxes everywhere and make even an RPG a theme park. Also a lot of companies have grown stagnant in the West.

It really surprised me that Kingmaker wasn't delayed as is the norm with that kind of game everywhere, must be the Slav way. A non-satisfying way, really.
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
Patron
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
16,292
Location
At large
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
As for developers, well, it's true that developing in the East is cheaper, but it should also be shoddier.
How did you get to this conclusion? Russian and Ukrainian software developers deliver good quality at very low prices, and also have numbers. Polish, Romanian, Czech, Bulgarian devs have the advantage of being in the EU when you are looking for outsource destinations, but there are fewer of them to go around, and they charge higher, though still low, rates.

Quality-wise however, Russians and Ukrainians have great reputation. I'm speaking strictly about the developers. Now if some project was fucked up at the business or project-management level, like it seems to be the case with Kingmaker, that's not really something the developers can be held responsible for.
 
Last edited:

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom