Codex Review RPG Codex Review: Disco Elysium

[Puteo]

I find it hilarious that people have easier time accepting a game where you bump a sprite against another sprite 'till one of them vanishes as an RPG, than a game that has demonstrably all the qualities that an RPG needs to have. You might not be used to that and it might not be the flavour you prefer, but it is extreme intellectual dishonesty to keep on crying that it is not a real RPG because you can't grind XP killing rats.

Are we talking about Pathologic 2 now?

 

[Haba]

I find it hilarious that people have easier time accepting a game where you bump a sprite against another sprite 'till one of them vanishes as an RPG, than a game that has demonstrably all the qualities that an RPG needs to have. You might not be used to that and it might not be the flavour you prefer, but it is extreme intellectual dishonesty to keep on crying that it is not a real RPG because you can't grind XP killing rats.

Are we talking about Pathologic 2 now?

We could be. It depends on what you are wearing.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Your turn now, game has both conflict and combat, why do you insist it's not an RPG? Does it needs trash mobs, available to engage at will, in order to meet criteria?

I already explained that - it cannot be an RPG because it has neither RolePlaying nor Gameplay. Roleplaying options in this game are nonexistant because it all amounts to linearity poorly camouflaged with illusion of choice, and gameplay is smoke and mirrors were wacky failure states are manufactured to create an illusion of challenge.

Far as I'm concerned, DE a visual novel where you use dice roll to turn the pages, layered on top of point&click adventure with no puzzles. You can't of course put that long description in marketing bullet points, so I don't mind that it's advertised as RPG, but everybody here is knowledgeable enough to know better, it's just that some of you are being deliberately obtuse as if there was shame attached to enjoying visual novels. It's not about labels, because it's clearly a hybrid game with many influences. It's about admitting that it has flaws.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Goral is a hero

AN hero

the man who went dancing with the furries for our sins

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

so you disagree with Gygax, the guy who invented RPGs, on the definition of RPGs?

The first airplanes were made out of a kite. Therefore, something it's only an airplane if it is made out of a kite.

 

[Prime Junta]

The first airplanes were made of a pipe.

:brofist:

Wait, what?

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

The first airplanes were made of a pipe.

:brofist:

Wait, what?

My bad. Not pipes, kites!

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

It would be very much possible to design such a system into a game of this kind. Would doing so necessarily make it more fun? Not if it was hashed on. But if it was done well I don't think anyone would turn their nose up at it.

It would be very much possible to design anything. In my dream world, the game would have better combat than JA and I would find an easter egg that contained a nude of Helen Hindpere, but the reality is that resources are limited. If combat was the focus of the gameplay, your criticism would be valid, but it isn't. The linearity accusations and underuse of thought cabinets are more relevant here.

 

[bataille]

someone exclaims: Sartre is the shittiest of them all! Everybody laughs, nods in agreement

You forgot Derrida! How could you?!

It was a stealth reference to one of Sartre's own accounts about his and Simone's student years. I just replaced, if I recall correctly, Hobbes with his own name.

I'm not as good as Kurvitz at letting the tricks of our sad times go.

 

[bataille]

someone exclaims: Sartre is the shittiest of them all! Everybody laughs, nods in agreement

You forgot Derrida! How could you?!

She clearly thinks Derrida isn't shit, having used hauntology non-ironically.

I only read Of Grammatology, like, in my freshman year. It was whatever. Barthes was a better Derrida than Derrida ever was.

While writing the hauntings bit, I was for the most part thinking of a book by Mark Fisher and the concept of the eerie from The Weird and the Eerie. The mention of Ccru further down the line should have tipped you off.

 

[Prime Junta]

While writing the hauntings bit, I was for the most part thinking of a book by Mark Fisher and the concept of the eerie from The Weird and the Eerie. The mention of Ccru further down the line should have tipped you off.

There are days I fancy myself a bit of an intellectual. Then this kind of shit happens and I realise just how much of a phoney I am.

 

[Trashos]

OK, OK. So high replayability is out the window. But I do not like wasting my entertainment time. If DE doesn't have high replayability, I need it to have staying power. That is, I need it to be good enough to leave good/interesting/lasting memories behind.

I can see that it does have such staying power for some of you. However, due to the political themes, and the fact that I am not a leftist myself (even though I am able to enjoy my Camus, and, yes, even "shitty" Sartre, but not Derrida), I am wondering if it can have staying power to people of different ideologies. I do not have to agree with the game's views, but they have to be interesting.

I see that DE lets you assign to yourself different ideologies, but that is not enough. What is important whether the writers understand (understand, not necessarily agree with) the arguments of said ideologies. We had this type of conversation in other threads before, with people (including myself) claiming that some writers do not understand the themes they are writing about, because they do not understand (and most importantly, they are not interested in) views other than their own. Such writers can have their fanclub preaching to the choir, but that's as far as they can go.

So my question is: Do the DE writers understand the arguments of views other than their own? At the very least, are they excited about understanding such views?

 

[Haba]

I hereby nominate bataille for a prestigious "Self-fart connaître" tag.

 

[Prime Junta]

So my question is: Do the DE writers understand the arguments of views other than their own? At the very least, are they excited about understanding such views?

The ideologies are basically caricatures, including and perhaps especially Communism. If you're going in expecting something ideologically deep whether it's about libertarianism, fascism, or something else, you ain't gonna find it. The game pokes fun at ideologies but is kind to people. One of the more sympathetic side characters in the game is the old codger in my avatar, and he's an old royalist (reactionary) veteran, just about the diametrical opposite of a Commie.

Put another way, if ideological aversion to the politics of the people who made it are stopping you from playing it, you're probably missing out for a shitty reason. Whichever ideology you pick, or none, the game will poke fun at you for it.

Examples:

Spoiler

If you're a Communist, you get a dialogue option during a date that goes something like "Embark and on an extremely long and tedious discussion of the way the bourgeoisie exploits the working class of Martinaise." They also get XP whenever they say something really ideologically rigid, stupid, and boring. Fascists get lulzy lines about wömen and kipts. Ultras get a reál whenever they praise the free market, and they get bonuses on pitching an investment opportunity to a certain millionaire (which lets them gouge 100 reál or so out of them). And so on. Some of it is LOL funny. None of it is particularly profound.

Spoiler

There is a deeper political subtext there but it is very subtle; bataille touched upon it in her review.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Trashos Political commentary is the worst written part of otherwise superbly written game and feels like produced by a 14-year old. It's even more jarring if you're trying to avoid it and larp someone apolitlcal, because it constantly keeps showing up in conversations for no sensible reason. That said, it's not encouraging you to worship Lenin or seize means of productions or anything of the sort if that's your worry. Instead it tries to mock everybody and by doing so it becomes redundant, pointless and the game would be better if it didn't feature politics at all.

 

[AwesomeButton]

OK, OK. So high replayability is out the window. But I do not like wasting my entertainment time. If DE doesn't have high replayability, I need it to have staying power. That is, I need it to be good enough to leave good/interesting/lasting memories behind.

It's worth at least 3 "attempted-completionist" playthroughs until you see pretty much nearly everything. At least that's my estimate. This would amount to about 80-90 hours total, give or take.

 

[MRY]

You might say that DE is a very good RPG minus combat,...

Do you know of any CRPGs with no combat? I don't.

CRPGs? No, unless you count DE. P&P is not something I’ve done since I was a kid, but my understanding is that there are now quite a few combat-free or combat-lite (DE does have some minimal combat) RPGs.

The thing is, hardcore RPG aficionados praise RPGs that offer pacifist paths for offering those paths. No hardcore adventure game fan praises adventures for offering puzzle-free paths. Hence, while I consider puzzles essential to the adventure game genre, I’m iffier on combat in RPGs. That said, I wouldn’t argue that an essentially puzzle-free adventure like Unavowed is really an RPG. It’s easier to call it an adventure with limited puzzles. I likewise think it’s easier to call DE an RPG with limited or no combat.

 

[Darth Roxor]

my understanding is that there are now quite a few combat-free or combat-lite RPGs.

Spoiler

each and every single one of them is shit

 

[Prime Junta]

CRPGs? No, unless you count DE. P&P is not something I’ve done since I was a kid, but my understanding is that there are now quite a few combat-free or combat-lite (DE does have some minimal combat) RPGs.

The thing is, hardcore RPG aficionados praise RPGs that offer pacifist paths for offering those paths. No hardcore adventure game fan praises adventures for offering puzzle-free paths. Hence, while I consider puzzles essential to the adventure game genre, I’m iffier on combat in RPGs. That said, I wouldn’t argue that an essentially puzzle-free adventure like Unavowed is really an RPG. It’s easier to call it an adventure with limited puzzles. I likewise think it’s easier to call DE an RPG with limited or no combat.

Asking whether a game belongs in this or that category is pointless and stupid. Only shopkeepers need to do it to know which shelf to stick the box in (virtual or physical).

Instead, look at what characteristics a game has. The Mass Effects for example have cover shooter, cinematic, and RPG characteristics. Disco has CYOA and RPG characteristics. IE games have RTS and RPG elements. This leads to an understanding that's more accurate, more useful, and more nuanced than simple pigeonholing.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Disco has CYOA and RPG characteristics.

It has exactly zero CYOA characteristics because there is no C.

 

[Prime Junta]

Disco has CYOA and RPG characteristics.

It has exactly zero CYOA characteristics because there is no C.

Senpai notices you. You can sit down now. :pat pat:

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Disco has CYOA and RPG characteristics.

It has exactly zero CYOA characteristics because there is no C.

Senpai notices you. You can sit down now. :pat pat:

Intelligent discourse about game mechanics in action.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Trashos I can’t speak for the right, but JarlFrank seems to love the game. Luckmann liked it, too (though he had issues with its simplistic approach to fascism). And they’re, uh, pretty right wing. Edit: in before Luckmann yells at me for mischaracterizing his Strasserite fusion of far left and far right.

As Junta said, the political ideologies are caricatures, but it’s not just in there as a series of cheap jokes (it does provide a lot of jokes, many of which are very funny though YMMV). Disco is sort of an existential crisis simulator. You have the option to embrace a set of unsubtle, doctrinaire ideologies (communism, fascism, libertarianism, extremely sensible centrism) the way a drowning man might cling to a life raft. Or you can also not do that.

Disco takes place in a neighborhood where a large union is on strike, and the labor dispute between the workers and the major multinational corporation that employs them is pretty central to the plot (neither side is good). Plus, the city is still recovering from a bloody, failed communist revolution fifty years before and it has no sovereignty—it’s basically a protectorate of an organization that looks a lot like the EU. So for the most part having a political reaction to what’s going on around you never felt shoehorned in (at least to me).

 

[Prime Junta]

Intelligent discourse about game mechanics in action.

If you want to have an intelligent discussion, stop larping a neckbeard. Until then, you're just the pigeon shitting on the chess board.

Also, stop being a faggot and un-restrict your profile, we can have interpersonal discussions there rather than shitting up the forums.