1eyedking Games which do not have a proper in-depth character creation system are NOT Rpg's

[Makabb]

Is Ultima 4 an crpg game then? Despite some char generation options You still play a role of a preset character of the Avatar and can only act in one way - all the way virtuous.

Ultima 4 does have a char generation, simple one, but it has one. In Gothic or Witcher you cannot change -anything- about the characters.

 

[LudensCogitet]

This has been a pretty enlightening thread actually. How about this: a "role playing game" without meaningful, player controlled character progression isn't really an RPG, since that lack trivializes any ability the player has to actually play the role.

But, that doesn't mean the player's circumstances or even certain of their traits can't be determined before hand.

I think this is pretty sensible. Especially considering that 0 constraints on character creation would basically be writing a novel.

 

[adrix89]

This has been a pretty enlightening thread actually. How about this: a "role playing game" without meaningful, player controlled character progression isn't really an RPG, since that lack trivializes any ability the player has to actually play the role.

This is what most people think when they consider what is a RPG.
But everyone and their dog nowadays have some form of progression system.
So a RPG needs to be a system where abstracted character skills play more of a factor than player skill.

 

[Nortar]

In Gothic or Witcher you cannot change -anything- about the characters.

Except Witcher actually gives you enough options to play the kind of character you'd prefer.
Even though in most cases those options are just fluff, they do add to them image of the protagonist.
In Witcher 2 a whole chapter runs completely differently depending if you're playing a pro-elven-terrorists errand boy or an independent/pro-human chad mercenary.

It has more to do with *character* than selecting hairdo color when the rest of your choices is between using a sword, a bow or a spell to mow down trash mobs.

 

[Lord of Riva]

I would argue that you guys misuse the term RPG.

Genre exist for two reasons: To help one to categorize things that are similar in nature under one category and to discern them from something else so that talking about the category allows unerstanding of what you are talking about.

The reason I would say it is a misuse is because you can not define something through it's Genre, rather the Genre is defined by it's content.

A Genre like can only make sense if you realise that you need such a category to define a heterogenic mass.

Therefore all of the games in the this category will have some aspects that are the same (but not in the same mixture) but necessarily they do not share all of them.

That is also the reason why there is a lively debate about titles on the fringe be it Disoc Elysium, Witcher or Jagged alliance the discussion will always be if a certain threshold of things are part of the game but there can never be a clear definition of this quantity.

This is also the reason why group thinking, regardless of political view, is a really bad idea, in the end we are all as much "different" as we are the "same".

tl;dr: Genres/Groups are ways to Identify similarities for a general better understanding but they are basically incapable of excluding things based on differences as these similarities are the reason the Group exist in the first place.

 

[Makabb]

It's easy to discern a shooter, RTS, football game, 4x game, tactical game etc so it is also easy to discern an RPG, stop trying to convulute the term. A RPG is a game where character skill takes over player skill, when player skill takes over character skill it is 'action rpg'.

In an RPG everything is governed by the ability to fail or succeed, if in a game you can fail or succeed based on your stats or dice roll, it is an RPG, simple as that.

 

[Lord of Riva]

It's easy to discern a shooter, RTS, football game, 4x game, tactical game etc so it is also easy to discern an RPG, stop trying to convulute the term. A RPG is a game where character skill takes over player skill, when player skill takes over character skill it is 'action rpg'.

In an RPG everything is governed by the ability to fail or succeed, if in a game you can fail or succeed based on your stats or dice roll, it is an RPG, simple as that.

is it though?

Deus Ex is an FPS with RPG elements, Spellforce an RTS with RPG Elements, Inazuma Eleven is a Football game with RPG Elements, Fallen enchantress, Age of Wonders endless legends are all 4x with RPG elements the same with the Castlevanias starting with Symphony of the night, which are basically plattformers.

I am not trying to convolute a term I am pointing to the fact that genres are simply not as clear cut as this topic suggests.

By your definition Dark souls would not be an (action-)RPG, something I simply can not agree on even though there is a clear difference between DS and Baldurs gate. This is exactly my point. (other examples would be Daggerfall, Morrowind et all)

 

[Makabb]

Dark souls is an action RPG, and you just confirmed my point..... you can discern that Deus EX is an FPS, Spellforce is an RTS, Inazuma Eleven is a football game. RPG elements don't make them an RPG, they have just -some- elements of an RPG, but they still remain an FPS, RTS and a football game.

Fallout is an RPG because you play a certain character role, in an RPG first and foremost you play the role of your character which was made by developers (witcher, gothic) or make your own role and try to larp (morrowind, daggerfall, fallout etc).
Fallout is not an FPS nor a RTS nor a Football game, it just is an RPG.

 

[Atchodas]

A Fallout is an RPG

Only the first two tho, later editions are just popamole shooters

 

[Makabb]

A Fallout is an RPG

Only the first two tho, later editions are just popamole shooters

Yes we are talking about 1 and 2

 

[Butter]

A Fallout is an RPG

Only the first two tho, later editions are just popamole shooters

3 and NV are action RPGs. They actually have a good balance of player skill vs character skill, even if you don't need either because they're piss easy.

 

[Makabb]

A Fallout is an RPG

Only the first two tho, later editions are just popamole shooters

3 and NV are action RPGs. They actually have a good balance of player skill vs character skill, even if you don't need either because they're piss easy.

They are Oblivion with guns, witch is Bethesdas first person RPG abortion

However New Vegas is the only decent one.

 

[Diggfinger]

Disco Elysium?

 

[Makabb]

Disco Elysium?

I'm waiting for it to go on sale, haven't played yet.

 

[Lord of Riva]

Dark souls is an action RPG, and you just confirmed my point..... you can discern that Deus EX is an FPS, Spellforce is an RTS, Inazuma Eleven is a football game. RPG elements don't make them an RPG, they have just -some- elements of an RPG, but they still remain an FPS, RTS and a football game.

A Fallout is an RPG because you play a certain character role, in an RPG first and foremost you play the role of your character which was made by developers (witcher, gothic) or make your own role and try to larp (morrowind, daggerfall, fallout etc)

The only thing I have proven here is that it is the description that matters and that identifying something as part of a genre is not clear cut.

Just to make that clear I wrote it the way i did to make you understand not because I would gauge the genres of the titles as non RPGs.

Specifically Inazuma Eleven is clearly a RPG first and a sport game second, funnilly enough there are more games like this The Mario Gold and Tennis games for example. Clearly sports games but RPGs *first*

The mixture of the genres is the exactly the fringe of the genres, i would have to agree that Deus ex would not be an RPG in my eyes as the Focus seems to be not only FPS but stealth but Borderlands on the other hand, even though it mainly is an FPS i would not be able to clearly identify as one or the other it is BOTH.

Instead of me proving your point you are proving mine, Because there IS no clear way to clearly define what an RPG is there will always be a debate on which games are.

 

[Lord of Riva]

Disco Elysium?

definitely an RPG in my book.

Still clearly not a Fallout or Baldurs gate. I mean there is no (real) combat in it at all.

 

[Butter]

3 and NV are action RPGs. They actually have a good balance of player skill vs character skill, even if you don't need either because they're piss easy.

They are Oblivion with guns, whitch is Bethesdas first person RPG abortion

Both can be true. I agree with your premise that meaningful character creation (not just character development) is an essential part of an RPG. Both Fallout 3 and NV have that feature.

 

[Makabb]

Instead of me proving your point you are proving mine, Because there IS no clear way to clearly define what an RPG is there will always be a debate on which games are.

Yes there is

fail/succeed based on stats or dice roll where you control a character that has a designed role (or you make that role) = rpg

 

[Atchodas]

3 and NV are action RPGs.

Action RPG with guns = Popamole Shooter
Action RPG without guns = just popamole

 

[Lord of Riva]

Instead of me proving your point you are proving mine, Because there IS no clear way to clearly define what an RPG is there will always be a debate on which games are.

Yes there is

fail/succeed based on stats or dice roll where you control a character that has a designed role (or you make that role) = rpg

Well that would mean that starting with anything that is not based on a P&P emulation would not be an RPG. That would include the P&P rounds we played where we did not use dice, which would be odd.

The definition is okay because as a subjective matter everything is, however you will be hard pressed to be understood by people because you define it in a way that people you interact with will not understand.

basically you can say a Blue cup is "red" but if you tell people it is they will think you are mistaken. The Point of the Genre is to be understood, that means with your description you are off the mark.

 

[Quillon]

1. Customized character & equipment progression
2. Narrative agency
3. Combat

are the ingredients of a regular RPG in muh book. It can have more or less of each but should have all of them. Then we have 2 out of 3 games like Disco with no combat and Dark Souls with no narrative agency(AFAIK) but they feel like RPGs to some degree We could accept them as irregular RPGs.

Then regular/irregular RPGs divide into two subgenres:

1. Autists' RPGs have to be menu driven with no twitch skills required.
2. Action RPGs.

So an RPG can be either of these 4:

1. Regular autists' RPG
2. Irregular autists' RPG
3. Regular action RPG
4. Irregular action RPG

Everything's sorted. Go home everyone.

Spoiler

 

[Tito Anic]

Makabb, you freegin dumb homo with your eternal struggle to whitewash Bethesdas crimes against humanity.

 

[Makabb]

Makabb, you freegin dumb homo with your eternal struggle to whitewash Bethesdas crimes against humanity.

1/10, put some effort next time

 

[Momock]

I literally mean you create him in process. A skillpoint here, a skillpoint there. Character creation ends when the credits roll.

That's character GROWTH, not creation. They grow when you create them from scratch too, you now.

But good try.

 

[LudensCogitet]

I literally mean you create him in process. A skillpoint here, a skillpoint there. Character creation ends when the credits roll.

That's character GROWTH, not creation. They grow when you create them from scratch too, you now.

But good try.

Reasonable distinction. RPGs require player controlled character growth, not necessarily player controlled character creation. Do all good RPGs also have player controlled character creation? Maybe.