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Best entry in a series (all genres)

Discussion in 'General Gaming' started by luj1, Oct 31, 2019.

  1. Tarantulos-Eduardo-Sanchez Arcane

    Tarantulos-Eduardo-Sanchez
    Joined:
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    Location:
    Cada juego de fantasía hecho
    Streets of Rage - 2
    Street Fighter - Super Turbo, Alpha 3 comes close
    Mortal Kombat - Ultimate 3, MK9 comes close
    Marvel vs. Capcom - 2
    Tekken - 3
    Killer Instinct - KI 2013
    Contra - Hard Corps
    Quake - 1
    Doom - 2
    Duke Nukem - 3D
    Final Fantasy - Tactics
    Warcraft - 2
    Starcraft - Brood War
    Diablo - 1
    Baldur's Gate - 1
    Ultima - VII
    Legacy of Kain - Blood Omen 1
    Fallout - 1
    SoulCalibur - 1
    Unreal Tournament - 1/1999
    Thief - 1
    Hitman - Blood Money
    Dark Souls - 2
    Elder Scrolls - Daggerfall
    Shadowrun (16bit) - Genesis version
    Shadowrun Returns - Dragonfall
    Resident Evil - Nemesis
    Tetris - TetriNet from the '90s/early '00s
    Double Dragon - 2
    Classicvania - Bloodlines
    Metroidvania - Circle of the Moon
    Metroid - Fusion
    Super Mario - 3
    Zelda - 2, Adventure of Link
    Metal Gear Solid - 1, Ghost Babel comes close
    Tenchu - 1, Wrath of Heaven comes close
    King of Fighters - '98
    Fatal Fury - Mark of the Wolves
    Alien vs. Predator - 2
    Syndicate - American Revolution
     
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  2. Roguey Arcane Sawyerite

    Roguey
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    From what I can tell from https://www.mobygames.com/game/diablo/screenshots and elsewhere, a couple of background shots and a monster shot were released in September 1995, but actual gameplay with a UI wasn't shown outside of Blizzard until E3 1996. I suppose it could have had influence on Baldur's Gate, but Fallout? Nah.

    • Art style - Fallout 1 and 2 win
    • Atmosphere - Fallout 1
    • Sound effects - tie really
    • Death animations - Fallout 1 and 2
    • Music - New Vegas since it has Morgan's tracks, licensed music on the radio, and Zur's theme
    • Builds - New Vegas has more viable character concepts from start to finish. All skills receive plenty of use.
    • Lack of minigames - Fallout 1 and 2
    • Attributes' affect on character ability - Fallout 1 and 2, 3/NV deliberately decreased its importance (though it's still somewhat important)
    • Item design - New Vegas. Fallout 1 AP ammo is interchangeable with regular ammo, Fallout 2 AP ammo that wasn't created specifically for 2 is objectively worse because they used a bad damage formula. Sawyer was far more meticulous (to a fault, according to Chris Avellone). Fallout armor progression also only goes one way: everyone ends up with Hardened Power Armor in 1 and Advanced Power Armor in 2. High tier light/medium/heavy armors are all viable in New Vegas. Additionally, the turbo plasma rifle is the undisputed best final weapon Fallout (thanks, Feargus). 2 had a few more options, New Vegas has more. In Fallout you can bring up the inventory and use as many stimpaks as you need to heal yourself back to full; in New Vegas's hardcore mode, every healing item does so over time so you can't abuse it
    • Combat design - No standouts really, but New Vegas does get some benefit from not needing a mod to speed up animations to an absurd degree during large fights
    • Exploration - None that stands out from the rest, all good
    • Writing - New Vegas has the most consistently well-written dialogue
    • Amount of content - 2 and New Vegas are both good here
    • Narrative reactivity and C&C - New Vegas has the most and the best
    • Stealth - New Vegas isn't a blind reloadfest, can actually be an enjoyable way to play
    • Pickpocketing - all are disappointing here
    • Inventory - they're all kind of annoying really
    • Character interface - Fallout 1 and 2 for being able to see everything on one screen
    • Being the first, laying down the groundwork - Obviously Fallout
     
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  3. Lilura RPG Codex Dragon Lady

    Lilura
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    Not really. Power Fist gets up to 10 ApR.

    Undisputed best weapon in Fallout 2 is Bozar. Sulik gets .223 and the rest get Gauss rifles.

    Highly enjoyable in Fallout and Fallout 2, are you kidding me? Slayer and Big Frigger in FO2 was standout.
     
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  4. DJOGamer PT Arcane

    DJOGamer PT
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    How is being original in locations and world building, not being original in anything at all?
    Aside from that again DS2 of all 3 DS games, has the best campaign.
    Funny you mention not understanding what DS ought to be, because that's exactly what happened to From with DS3 (or even Bloodborne).
    The mechanics are the most robust of any From game (aside from King's Field 4).

    The maw of chaos was just a segment of one larger mission. And it highligths how T2 improves things upon T1. My guess with Casting the Joint and Masks is that they were 1 full mission but it probably was too big so they decided to split into two. T1 also had return to the cathedral.
    T1 does go against it's self on considerable ocasions. Also imerse sims aren't a genre, but rather an aspect conferred by the game's mechanics and open ended content. Thied is very much a pure stealth game.
    Yeah T1 has some pretty memorable moments, but I find myself replaying T2 far more. T1 overall quality troughout the entire game is kinda all over the place, while T2 never at any point drops the ball as hard as T1, an in fact for the most part the quality of each level superior to the one before until the end.
    T2 didn't gave nothing similiar to T1. The switch to a more techological setting, was a very good decision and also necessary (otherwise the game would've been a rethread of the first).
    Finally Thief games do not focus more on storyfaggotry than any other aspect. Their focus is on the challenge provided by the gameplay and level design.

    Sequels being worse than the original installements is the exception in videogames.
    In the first game the devs have an idea, but it's with further work on that idea that they can realise it's potential. You can see that most of those games I listed as well as in Thief.
    Yes Thief's development was a rocky one, it was only late in development that the devs had the idea to make it a game about evasion rather than confrotation. That's why there are things in T1 that do go against that principle (specially in the last chunk on the game).

    You're getting it tough.
    DS1 is the one whose quality is more consistent across the whole game.
    However DS2 lows migth be as bad as DS1 lows (although even in lows the quality is mediocre and not bad), but DS2 highs far surpass any of DS1 highs
    I really DeS as well - I think DeS and DS2 are the best games From has made in these last 10 years. So it's kinda difficult for me to say between the two which one is best, but I would say DS2.
    That game just has some of the best content From as ever produced.

    You really don't have to analyse them to figure out a way.
    Fallout system was so rushly designed (to be fair they wanted to use another system, but unfortonately things didn't work out), that any player that reachs a high enough point in the game naturally breaks.
    What's the problem you ask?
    Simple. As a consequence the last act of the game is a walk in the park.

    When I said most RPG's, I was even referring to older ones.
    What does that mean?
    Easy, a game with good gameplay is a good game. Regardless of the quality of the other aspects.
    And Soul Silver has also as fun and relaxing campgain (the best of the franchise). So overall it's solid game.
     
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  5. Fairfax Arcane

    Fairfax
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    Slow 2D 20fps clicker released in the same year as Quake(!) showed everyone how to code?

    The main influence Diablo had on MCA were its succubi, but in a negative way. He said they were oversexualized and their sounds annoyed him, so he made FFG partially as a direct answer. I suppose one can call that a positive influence in the end, but it wasn't because of something Diablo did right.

    The 'king influencer' almost led to Fallout, your own 'pure RPG' GOAT, being butchered in development. Fallout's creators did not escape Diablo's influence a second time, though, and Arcanum (your 7th best RPG of all time) had RT combat and multiplayer forced by Sierra late in its already troubled development.

    Diablo also influenced IWD, in the sense that IPLY believed hardcore RPG fans would choose a classic dungeon crawler with BG gameplay over Diablo, so they released IWD on the same day as Diablo 2. IWD was blown out of the water, of course, and Diablo cemented its status as the standard for dungeon crawlers.

    You can also add all the games that had their roots sacrificed on the altar of Diablo, like Vampire: The Masquerade Redemption, Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor, Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance, Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel, and many others. Speaking of which, when given the chance to save either Dark Alliance 2 or Baldur's Gate 3, Herve chose DA2, because Diablo-esque games were more popular and it'd be on consoles. Similar thing happened with FO:BOS, which led to Van Buren's cancellation.

    One may say that a game is not responsible for how people reacted, that players and other devs make their own decisions, etc. However, you love to claim that Oblivion, RtwP, and FO3 were pernicious to the entire genre, so it's hypocritical to give Diablo a pass despite all the harm it did. You like Diablo a lot, and that's fine. People have their preferences, soft spots, nostalgia, etc. But your claims that Diablo started a CRPG Renaissance (demonstrably false), shames every RPG that came before it (lol), and became an overwhelmingly positive influence on the genre are embarrassing. The irony is that nothing poisoned your "Renaissance era" more than Diablo, and many of the things you lament in the genre today can be traced back to its success.
     
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  6. Roguey Arcane Sawyerite

    Roguey
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    The Modron Maze was also the biggest "Fuck you Diablo" Avellone could possibly give.

    The problem with stealth in the original Fallouts is that you have no feedback for how well you're sneaking and stealth can be broken at any time on account of a bad random roll. Bloodlines was the first time the Troika trio actually got it right.
     
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  7. Nano Prestigious Gentleman Arcane Patron

    Nano
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    Loving the Mona Lisa with a sword. Wonder if that's a placeholder portrait for any of the existing companions.
     
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  8. Lilura RPG Codex Dragon Lady

    Lilura
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    Fairfax , I don't acknowledge the citations given in this thread. I don't care what the devs say happened in shallow exchanges. Least of all, do I care what you or anyone else says they said.

    I think that's the problem with you and the 'Dex as a whole: you focus on the devs and what they say in interviews, Twitter etc. People say a lot of things, but these guys tell us only 1% of what their thoughts/influences are in a dev cycle. And even if they wrote a book about it, I wouldn't take it as gospel.

    I look at the games, and the games alone. You don't see talk about devs on my blog. You don't see me quoting them as an authority. Or it's very, very rare and just by the by. In respect to that, I admit it was a mistake to mention Avellone/Diablo 2 ITT, as I don't give a damn what he or any other devs says about their or others' games. I guess I was just posting loosely because this is General Gaming.

    Diablo was the King Influencer and mostly in a positive way. Yes, I stand by that as "a combatfag" and commentator. I haven't proved it as yet, of course, and I don't feel the need to. Because what influenced what is of little concern to me in comparison to the games themselves.

    In conclusion, have fun telling everyone what other people said in shallow interviews and "retrospectives".

    Also, welcome to the iggy bin for unfairly railing against me (here and on Shoutbox or whatever it is) and attempting to paint Diablo as "pernicious/poison". Your existence will never be acknowledged again.
     
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  9. Fairfax Arcane

    Fairfax
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    Childish response because you have a blind spot and can't accept obvious things about your guilty pleasure. You're not even trying to make sense anymore, and you're going against the whole persona you've built up. I guess I should add your own credibility to the list of things sacrificed for Diablo.

    Bye, Felicia.
    :mca:
     
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  10. DJOGamer PT Arcane

    DJOGamer PT
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    Videogames are vastly different than any other medium.
    With games, the only way a sequel can be worse is if the devs make a shift in direction that goes against the original idea. But since most sequels are generally made by the same devs and usually in quick sucession to their predecessors, they get to continually improve on the concept.

    Using the example one of the games I posted:

    Splinter Cell: devs are inspired by Thief and MGS to make a stealth game; they release the first game, that wasn't bad but rough around the edges and the campgain could've been better; then with the sequel, they rework things and experiment with the level design, and overall a pretty good game comes out of it; finally with enough experience, a few more bucks from the series being a sucess, they polish everything and make the best campgain in the series and voilá, you have Chaos Theory a game whose greatness can rival the first 2 Thief games.

    And this is the most common case with games.

    DS2 quality varies from area to area. You can have a really good one that then is followed by 2 mediocre ones (although they still have neat things).

    Well it certainly better in that regard.
    But I didn't said New Vegas was better just because the gameplay is better. I said that New Vegas has a similiar level of quality to Fallout 1/2 concerning quests design, atmosphere, world building and exploration. And it's NV stronger mechanics that break the stalemate and puts it above the other two.

    Why are you insisting with Pokemon man?
    I already explained it. It's has tight mechanics with a surprising amount depth, a satisfying game loop, and in SS/HG case a fun and relaxing campaign. It's a neat and comfy game, what more can I say?
     
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  11. Ivan Arcane

    Ivan
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    :what:
     
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  12. Van-d-all Savant

    Van-d-all
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    Civilization - Call To Power
     
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  13. DJOGamer PT Arcane

    DJOGamer PT
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    Yeah sure all things decline. Specially with the more time has passes since the first iteration.
    But like I said, with videogames the immediate sequels are better the first. And unlike the other mediums, a worthy sequel years after the original titles is not uncommon.
    And again disagree on you with Thief. The first one wasn't the complete idea, because the idea of the game being about stealth came in late. The one with the complete idea was Thief 2, since it's the one that revealed the entire potential of the idea.

    That's a dumb way judging a game's quality.

    It doesn't matter from where a game originated. If it's good, it's good.
    Ninja Gaiden Black is also an XBox game, and it's one of the best action games ever made. REmake is a GameBube game and you'll be hard pressed to find a better survival horror title. Pretty much all figthing games come from consoles or arcades. And a big chunk of the best platformer titles originated in consoles as well.

    Chaos Theory is one the best stealth games, whose quality puts it on the same league as Thief 1/2.

    And the PC version of Splinter Cell isn't a port, so calling it an Xbox game is a reach.

    So, for example you think Heide's Tower of Flame is the same quality-wise to No Man's Wharf?

    The fact you think Pokemon games are as shallow as Beth broken buggy messes, is an indication how little you know about them.
    Also I never said they are better than other RPG's, I said they have better designed systems than most RPG's - which is true.
     
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  14. DJOGamer PT Arcane

    DJOGamer PT
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    Yes it's on the same league of the originals as a stealth game.
    Also, why the fuck are you bringing up SS, Planescape and Fallout? They are not stealth games, they are RPG's. Not comparable to Splinter Cell or Thief.

    The difference in quality is fairly significant. Which, like I previously said, is one example of how DS2 shifts in quality since the beigining of the game.

    Red is a decent game. There's no major faults with it's gameplay or the content, and it's overall a well constructed game.
    And yes the sequels do get better.
    Again, just because you think they don't possess any depth doesn't make it so. And since you already confirmed your knowledge is limited to the first game of an enormous the series, you make it pretty clear you have no notion how mechanically driven these games can be.
    Also why are being so dense? I said that in terms of the mechanics, there are Pokemon games (like Soul Silver) that are superior than most RPG's. That does not equal to afirm that they are better games as whole. What's so hard to understand?
     
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  15. luj1 You're all shills

    luj1
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  16. DJOGamer PT Arcane

    DJOGamer PT
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    And so is Chaos Theory.

    What you want more examples?
    And no, the quality of those two levels, or any level in the game, isn't the same.

    You're parameters to determine a game's quality must be fascinating, if a game that isn't bad in any regard (but also not good) is considered shit.
    I don't think they have good mechanics, they do it's a fact. Go to any Pokemon wiki or forum discussing the stats and high level play, and you can see for yourself how much the game has under the hood. Also you were the one that was making judgment based your subjective taste and limited knowledge of the games.
    Good mechanics always make a game better.
    Now you're just being silly, comparing a phone to a game.
     
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  17. DJOGamer PT Arcane

    DJOGamer PT
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    Actually in regards to assessing if game is good or not, codexers are usually pretty good.
    But I'll be honest with you bro, I'm having doubts about your expertise.

    Well considereing Pokemon is one of the most successful game franchises, I would say a great many deal of people.
    Also is this a forum about nerds discussing a niche, and mostly dead, genre.

    It is an objective fact you barely know anything about those mechanics, but for some reason continue to make false afirmations about them.
    Maybe you're hoping to gain some Kodex Kool Kid Kredits?

    You might wanna work on your analogies dude. Because that one is not very good.
     
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  18. DJOGamer PT Arcane

    DJOGamer PT
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    Well bro, we all sometimes make ourselves look like fools. But you bro, you abuse that privilege.

    C'mon bro, don't put words in my mouth.
    You were the one who asked if anyone cares about Pokemon.
    I never said they're good because they're successful.

    You played the first game, that compared to the best ones amounts to a prototype.
    And the game is fundamentally shallow because of what exactely?
    Because the experience mostly resumes to exploring the map, capturing/trading pokemon, building your team and figthing?
    It's a mechanics driven game. The meat of the game is the battles and "team crafting". The campaign is for a more relaxed and casual play, and a tutorial+preparation for the high-end stuff.

    It's also pretty obvious what I've been saying from the start.
    And I did listen, but you were the one that for some reason started to sperg out of control.
    Funny you should mention shallow bro, because I am not the one who's buttmad someone else likes a game that revolves around it's core gameplay concept (and a well refined one at that).
     
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  19. DJOGamer PT Arcane

    DJOGamer PT
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    Well I am dealing with one.
     
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  20. DJOGamer PT Arcane

    DJOGamer PT
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    If you want to say something, then just spit it out.
     
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  21. DJOGamer PT Arcane

    DJOGamer PT
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    Get on with the times old man, Fallout 76 blows that piece of shit out of the water.
     
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  22. JarlFrank I like Thief THIS much Patron

    JarlFrank
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  23. lukaszek the determinator

    lukaszek
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    homm - 4. everyone claiming otherwise is deaf
    bg - char creation of 2nd one, same as above
    gothic - 1, swamp folks uber ales
     
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  24. Citizen Prophet

    Citizen
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    rare footage lukaszek trying to enjoy h4 music without looking at the atrocity happening on screen:
     
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