Dark Souls is absolutely an RPG, explanation

[Raskens]

This makes the first soulslike either Kings Field or Ocarina of Time, bringing us full circle on the whole edgy Zelda argument. I am currently trying to dig up the first 3rd person camera rpg where you can actually level up, but no luck. I have come up over a really interesting ancient JRPG with instanced 3d action combat so far, Granstream Saga https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-HfNvPu7MY, on my boredom fueled google adventures.

I can't really see how OoT is a soulslike. OoT has way more focus on puzzles; acquiring items to progress; and also backtracking to use the items collect secrets for example getting the bombs, and then blowing up some rock you had found earlier. My view on DS might be a little off because I had the master key, so I didn't need to look for the individual keys. However I belive the OoT's puzzles, and backtracking to find secrets makes it a different game than DS.

 

[Thac0]

Depends on context.


I really don't buy this "Morrowind is RPG because shit combat while Dark Souls not RPG because good combat", I get the point (stats more or less important) but I think this adds nothing to the discussion, in my opinion if you think the RPG label is only about character sheets and different possible builds (this "with RPG elements" thing) then Dark Souls is good at that, much better than many other games.

The thing is, if the point is whether I'd prefer if games like Dark Souls, or any action-rpg for the matter, appear when I browse Steam for games with the RPG tag, then I'd highly prefer if they don't appear. I prefer about RPGs being about being close to the games which made the genre. In that case RPGs are just as identifiable as plateformers, just like a game which looks like a plateformer is more often than not a plateformer there's little chance a game which looks like that is not an RPG :

The genre became a genre for a reason. It's also my favourite genre for a reason which can't be that different, and it's really about party adventuring, and to simplify let's even say creating my own party and adventuring, and also in the details all these games play quite the same.

Reducing the genre to having a character sheet or not does not work for me, that's not what makes a game appealing or not to me.

Based on what used to sell a lot of players thought the kind of games I'm talking about were what was a fun adaptation of tabletop RPGs to a computer back then.

Now I am aware it's more complicated. First what some players who used to play the classic really wanted to play was Ultima Underworld, Diablo, WOW or Skyrim and they switched to those, I can't deny that, but I think these games are far enough from the roots that they can be called something else too.

Secondly, many devs have different interpretations of adapting tabletop RPGs to computers, and after all the classics were not all the exact same either, devs also came with different ideas, but we must also judge the final result, if the game plays like any action game out there then whether you call it an RPG or not is totally irrelevant, if it plays like classics then no problem (in definitive it's not only about a party, I've no problem with Underrail appearing when I check for RPGs), if it's its own thing then I don't have an opinion beforehand but don't assume it's the kind of game I could like because you call it RPG, it has a character sheet or something like that.

May I introduce you to the steam tag "crpg"? Steam tags are user given so obviously they are inaccurate as fuck. The rpg tag is used by everyone and their mother so its pretty worthless.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

the difference between Zelda and Dark Souls (apart from the latter having level ups) is that the level design is a lot more claustrophobic.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

It seems that most of the people arguing about the genre of Dark Souls have never played its predecessor Demon's Souls and are often attempting to categorize Dark Souls via features that were absent in the original game, which overall is quite similar to its successor.

 

[DalekFlay]

The highest of IQ takes: Dark Souls is a classic Metroidvania in the style of Symphony of the Night but with 3d action combat instead of 2d.

I posted somewhere on here a while back about how Symphony of the Night has a lot of the stuff people insist makes Dark Souls an RPG. The truth of course is that Dark Souls is a hybrid game, but we're not allowed to acknowledge that's a thing apparently.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Pretty much this, action adventures have been around a long time and Dark Souls didn't do anything new

It was the first action adventure to make progress about completing 10 to 20 minute arcade gauntlets (getting to the next bonfire).

If there are earlier examples (even 2d) I'd like to know.

How are bonfires different from save points in any other action adventure?

Bonfire are not savepoints. Dark Souls is autosaving all the time.
-Bonfires and dying respawn all the fodder in the game. In most normal action-adventures when you clear the room and save you are either done with the enemies forever or they all respawn the instance you exit and enter the location (like in Zelda)
-You can loose your progress on defeat. In most games, once you beat the boss, get to the save point and save everything you've looted from him is yours forever. In Souls there is no bank for your souls, so everything you don't spend immediately can be lost forever by a few mistakes
-Respawning works differently than loading a game after you die. When you fight a boss in a normal game and use an item like a potion 2 things can happen. Either you win a combat, save and lose a potion, or lose a combat and try it again after reload with a potion back in your inventory. In Souls you can lose a bunch of items, die and have to get them again. Pretty much the reason I never bothered with bows in the game.
-You can never, ever save manually. In most games you buy a weapon, try it out and if you dislike it just reload and get your money back. Everything in Dark Souls is permanent which means that every badly invested stat point is lost forever.

 

[deuxhero]

You can save manually by quitting the game, it's just overwritten if you play further.

 

[The_Mask]

The highest of IQ takes: Dark Souls is a classic Metroidvania in the style of Symphony of the Night but with 3d action combat instead of 2d.

the most important element of every metroid-like game is gating progress through items/abilities. Dark Souls gates stuff through keys, hence it's not a metroid-like.

Next time you see lava, keep going forward. Walking, or rolling, doesn't matter. Same with water.

Spoiler

Also... do a "no ring run", and tell us how it ended.

 

[Wunderbar]

Rated you "shit" for reminding me about how shit izalith was. I was trying to erase it from my memory.

 

[The_Mask]

Rated you "shit" for reminding me about how shit izalith was. I was trying to erase it from my memory.

Awwww... and here I thought The Beatles would make up for it... I'm sorry.

 

[Grauken]

Which again isn't that much different from other action adventures

Really? Name some other action adventure that give you a fixed number of misses between checkpoints. Please.

I'm not that interested in action adventures, but your answers give me all the info I need to know that its really about obsessive, minute changes to a rather boring formula. All the "souls-likes" have going for it is difficulty, wow, really a great foundation for a new sub-genre

 

[Nutmeg]

I'm not that interested in action adventures

Neither tbh but Dark Souls added some long missing meaning to the genre by playing with the format. It didn't go all the way which would be removing all forms of grinding. It's an easy tweak too, just lock in gains (ore, souls) only at *new* bonfires.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Everything in Dark Souls is permanent which means that every badly invested stat point is lost forever.

So, to clarify, the purported difficulty of the game is mostly effect of its save-system? No savescumming - insanely difficult game?

 

[DalekFlay]

All the "souls-likes" have going for it is difficulty, wow, really a great foundation for a new sub-genre

The Souls games themselves have really cool lore, art design, mood/tone and shit like that. So good I kept trying to play the first one despite hating almost everything else about it. I know you mean the genre itself, but I do think that great design job is a big reason the games have a fanbase beyond "GIT GUD LOSER!" dick measuring convenience haters (and I do think 80% of Dark Souls difficulty is born from removing convenience features most other modern games have. Only reason I hated playing it was repeating shit over and over).

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Everything in Dark Souls is permanent which means that every badly invested stat point is lost forever.

So, to clarify, the purported difficulty of the game is mostly effect of its save-system? No savescumming - insanely difficult game?

Dark Souls is not insanely difficult. Some fight can be hard but Dark Souls in designed in a way that if you bang your head against the wall enough times you'll succeed eventually. Unlike for example old adventure games where you can get genuinely stuck and be unable to finish the game without a guide of some sort.
Not being able to try-out your build and reload doesn't really make the that more difficult since you can complete it just fine by using any build. If your build is suboptimal you just need to be more careful when fighting bosses.

You can save manually by quitting the game, it's just overwritten if you play further.

My memory may be wonky, but remember starting when I left off if I quit the game while exploring.

 

[Ranarama]

Everything in Dark Souls is permanent which means that every badly invested stat point is lost forever.

So, to clarify, the purported difficulty of the game is mostly effect of its save-system? No savescumming - insanely difficult game?

It just makes it boring and waste your time.

I put forth that this is the real gameplay of Dark Souls. Walking back to where you last died, and therefore it is not an RPG, but a walking simulator.

 

[NJClaw]

Again, this is true both for Dark Souls and Baldur's Gate. If Dark Souls isn't an RPG because your only choice is to fight, how is Baldur's Gate any different?

I didn't say Dark Souls is not an RPG at all. It is Action-RPG, an action game with RPG elements, but you got to be insane to argue that RPG elements don't take a backseat to game's action.

Baldurs Gate, though. Is it wise to compare isometric party-based game with auto-combat and third person action game with only player's input?

I was just following your definition:

That's the thing. Most of elements mentioned by you apply only to combat. You can create your build, but it will be a combat build in any case. RPG elements are secondary here, subservient to combat and game is action first and foremost. You are given choices: where to fight enemies, how and when to fight them, but not given alternatives to combat. That's the definition of ARPG, when your choices matter, but you are given only combat choices.

How is this not true for Baldur's Gate?

Sure, combat plays out very differently in the two games, but, if "how combat plays out" is what defines if a game is an RPG or not, is The Witcher an RPG? Regarding combat, do you think The Witcher is closer to Baldur's Gate than to Dark Souls?

I'm okay with the "Dark Souls is an ARPG" definition, but every reason you gave to support this definition stands true also for every IE RTwP game.

 

[Ol' Willy]

I'm okay with the "Dark Souls is an ARPG" definition, but every reason you gave to support this definition stands true also for every IE RTwP game.

Ok, I wan't accurate enough in my statements. There are, obviously, different types of combat. Main gameplay element of Dark Souls is third-person action combat - like in other, pure action games. Main gameplay element of Baldur's Gate is computer calculated D&D combat. Dark Souls is driven by third-person action, Baldur's Gate is driven by D&D. Sure, you can call Baldur's Gate a D&D-RPG game and Fallout GURPS SPECIAL-RPG game, but its kinda redundant.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

Which again isn't that much different from other action adventures

Really? Name some other action adventure that give you a fixed number of misses between checkpoints. Please.

I'm not that interested in action adventures, but your answers give me all the info I need to know that its really about obsessive, minute changes to a rather boring formula. All the "souls-likes" have going for it is difficulty, wow, really a great foundation for a new sub-genre

Don't listen to all the fagets saying this and that about Dark Souls, ignore everything and give it a proper go (3-5 hours), if it clicks you've got yourself a great game. And yes, it's an action-adventure period

 

[Citizen]

it is not an RPG, but a walking simulator.

Told ya!

A strand-type game