Decline Golden, Silver, and Modern Age of RPGs

[LeStryfe79]

So mondblut, what do you disagree with? That FO3 changed the industry, or that Golden Age refers to the olden days?

 

[Whiny-Butthurt-Liberal]

Golden Age: Might & Magick, Wizardry, Ultima, Grimoire

Silver Age: Infinitron engine games

Moderntarded Age: Legend of Geralt: Breast of the Wild Cunt.

 

[Lilura]

old school CRPGs like Kingmaker built for us

 

[RNGsus]

My favorite rpg Might and Magic 6. My first rpg, mistaken by my mother for squels to my actual favorite game, Heroes of Might anadd Magic 2, which is goat of all gayms. They are the promordeal age of game, when gods commanded their keyboards and heroes did stuff.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

old school CRPGs like Kingmaker built for us

You should play it. I want to say that spending a few hours in character creation will wipe that grin off your face, but it will quickly be replaced by a very different kind of grin.

In fact... care to make a wager? I would bet actual money that you’ll enjoy Kingmaker, although I believe it’s customary for the challenged party to name the stakes.

 

[mondblut]

So mondblut, what do you disagree with? That FO3 changed the industry, or that Golden Age refers to the olden days?

The former, obviously. FO3 is nothing but reskinned Oblivion, not even a blip on the radar. Anyone who thinks it's a Great Satan is either a newfag and closeted Oblivion fanboy who has happily twitched the awesome button in blissful abandon all the way until 2008, or insane Fallout nut completely unaware of the world outside his holy franchise.

 

[Funposter]

So mondblut, what do you disagree with? That FO3 changed the industry, or that Golden Age refers to the olden days?

The former, obviously. FO3 is nothing but reskinned Oblivion, not even a blip on the radar. Anyone who thinks it's a Great Satan is either a newfag and closeted Oblivion fanboy who has happily twitched the awesome button in blissful abandon all the way until 2008, or insane Fallout nut completely unaware of the world outside his holy franchise.

Agreed. Fallout 3 was developed, marketed, and enjoyed by the general public as, "Oblivion With Guns™". There's something to be said for KOTOR changing the industry, but I think that has more to do with the shift towards the Xbox as a lead platform, and there were plenty of contemporary games which made concessions to, or were developed mainly for, the platform (Deus Ex: Invisible War, Fable, Morrowind). KOTOR probably suggests less of an industry-wide decline, and more of a shift in Bioware's attitude towards development (see: Jade Empire), considering games like KOTOR 2 and VTMB were developed in its stead. Oblivion on the otherhand was basically a harbinger of doom for the genre, signalling a near-decade of attempts towards mass-market appeal by other developers, and even inspiring several clones.

 

[Agame]

Infinitron engine games

Well played sir.

I too enjoy those Infinitron games.

 

[Tigranes]

Also, I'm beginning to believe many ignorant mother fuckers on this forum are unaware of the definitions of terms like golden age and silver age. They have nothing to do with quality and you would know that if you weren't dipshits.

You should prooooooobably check out some old greek people

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Also, I'm beginning to believe many ignorant mother fuckers on this forum are unaware of the definitions of terms like golden age and silver age. They have nothing to do with quality and you would know that if you weren't dipshits.

You should prooooooobably check out some old greek people

Truly, we live in an age of iron and rust.

 

[Funposter]

Also, I'm beginning to believe many ignorant mother fuckers on this forum are unaware of the definitions of terms like golden age and silver age. They have nothing to do with quality and you would know that if you weren't dipshits.

You should prooooooobably check out some old greek people

The more woke interpretation is that "Golden Age" refers to the solar cycle, whereas "Silver Age" aligns with the Lunar Cycle and post-deluge.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Modern Age starts with Fallout 3 (2008)

*KotoR

Kotor is just a simplified BG with 3ed rules. Did not mark a shift in rpg industry. FO3 clearly did.

Also, I'm beginning to believe many ignorant mother fuckers on this forum are unaware of the definitions of terms like golden age and silver age. They have nothing to do with quality and you would know that if you weren't dipshits.

KoToR marks the shift from isometric to cinematic RPGs. KoToR runs more or less the same mechanics as Neverwinter Nights, but the presentation is completely different. Full voice acting, cinematic camera angles for dialogue, shot-reverse shot framing, much more detailed combat animations, and an overall simplified level design and balancing. The goal of KoTor is cinematic presentation, not story or gameplay. KoToR marked the end of when games thought it was acceptable to let you control a bunch of guys with selection boxes and mouse clicks, and when you had to have dramatic presentation be the focus (at least until the kickstarter RPG rennaisance).

KoToR leads directly into Mass Effect which affected everything. Dragon Age got mutated by Mass Effect's success, and other games such as the Witcher series and even Bethesda (Oblivion and Skyrim, later Fallout 4's dialogue wheels and full voice acting). KoToR was the start of it. Now open-world RPG-ish games are vying for dominance and are winning, so the pure cinematic RPG is mostly over, but KoToR was the beginning of the current era we are still in.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

So mondblut, what do you disagree with? That FO3 changed the industry, or that Golden Age refers to the olden days?

The former, obviously. FO3 is nothing but reskinned Oblivion, not even a blip on the radar. Anyone who thinks it's a Great Satan is either a newfag and closeted Oblivion fanboy who has happily twitched the awesome button in blissful abandon all the way until 2008, or insane Fallout nut completely unaware of the world outside his holy franchise.

Agreed. Fallout 3 was developed, marketed, and enjoyed by the general public as, "Oblivion With Guns™". There's something to be said for KOTOR changing the industry, but I think that has more to do with the shift towards the Xbox as a lead platform, and there were plenty of contemporary games which made concessions to, or were developed mainly for, the platform (Deus Ex: Invisible War, Fable, Morrowind). KOTOR probably suggests less of an industry-wide decline, and more of a shift in Bioware's attitude towards development (see: Jade Empire), considering games like KOTOR 2 and VTMB were developed in its stead. Oblivion on the otherhand was basically a harbinger of doom for the genre, signalling a near-decade of attempts towards mass-market appeal by other developers, and even inspiring several clones.

I can see the argument that the decline began with the choice to release Morrowind for xbox, as that marked the shift in Bethesda's priorities and lead to Oblivion. But I believe Oblivion was copying KoTor when they jettisoned depth and complexity in favor of voice acting.

 

[Mark Richard]

Modern Age starts with Fallout 3 (2008)

*KotoR

Kotor is just a simplified BG with 3ed rules. Did not mark a shift in rpg industry. FO3 clearly did.

Also, I'm beginning to believe many ignorant mother fuckers on this forum are unaware of the definitions of terms like golden age and silver age. They have nothing to do with quality and you would know that if you weren't dipshits.

KoToR marks the shift from isometric to cinematic RPGs. KoToR runs more or less the same mechanics as Neverwinter Nights, but the presentation is completely different. Full voice acting, cinematic camera angles for dialogue, shot-reverse shot framing, much more detailed combat animations, and an overall simplified level design and balancing. The goal of KoTor is cinematic presentation, not story or gameplay. KoToR marked the end of when games thought it was acceptable to let you control a bunch of guys with selection boxes and mouse clicks, and when you had to have dramatic presentation be the focus (at least until the kickstarter RPG rennaisance).

KoToR leads directly into Mass Effect which affected everything. Dragon Age got mutated by Mass Effect's success, and other games such as the Witcher series and even Bethesda (Oblivion and Skyrim, later Fallout 4's dialogue wheels and full voice acting). KoToR was the start of it. Now open-world RPG-ish games are vying for dominance and are winning, so the pure cinematic RPG is mostly over, but KoToR was the beginning of the current era we are still in.

And not so coincidentally, KotoR was the first Bioware RPG to be released on consoles. Between that and Morrowind coming out on Xbawks a year earlier (also the first Bethesda RPG on console), 2002/3 was a huge shift in the industry. The need to maintain a strong precence on the larger console market had a massive influence on RPG design.

 

[mondblut]

KoToR marks the shift from isometric to cinematic RPGs. KoToR runs more or less the same mechanics as Neverwinter Nights, but the presentation is completely different.

But NWN was already a massive decline. It's every bit as casual as KOTOR. In fact, KOTOR at very least allowed to drag two companions along, not one.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

KoToR marks the shift from isometric to cinematic RPGs. KoToR runs more or less the same mechanics as Neverwinter Nights, but the presentation is completely different.

But NWN was already a massive decline. It's every bit as casual as KOTOR. In fact, KOTOR at very least allowed to drag two companions along, not one.

While being a decline with regards to companions, it wasn't a decline with regards to anything mechanics-wise & p&p-wise and was still a completely PC-based game, which is the topic of the message you're replying to. What you did was basically state a completely unrelated gripe about the game which, while true, has nothing to do with the point being discussed. Further, the expansions allowed more companions & the complaint there is then changed to the player's inability to control them properly, but this is still not the point being discussed.

 

[Tigranes]

KoToR marks the shift from isometric to cinematic RPGs. KoToR runs more or less the same mechanics as Neverwinter Nights, but the presentation is completely different.

But NWN was already a massive decline. It's every bit as casual as KOTOR. In fact, KOTOR at very least allowed to drag two companions along, not one.

I'm partial to the idea that KOTOR was the big turn - it was also the game that made me set aside all expectations for Bioware.

NWN had the excuse that it was focusing on the toolset, and the toolset really was extremely successful. We all know now the campaign was thrown together in a few months. It certainly showed early tendencies of decline, but I think it was a more forgivable step into an ambitious and different project.

KOTOR had no such excuse. It is decline in every single mechanic. The camera explicitly forbids any meaningful control of your party in favour of an ugly clusterfuck. Character building mostly means watching numbers go up. The story now settles into a completely formulaic progression where the 'big twist' is telegraphed light years away (and reused almost entirely in Jade Empire, for instance). In retrospect, NWN1 also featured a campaign where everything about story, characters and dialogues are built out of a formula; but it's with KOTOR that you realise it's going to be a pattern in their games.

 

[LeStryfe79]

So mondblut, what do you disagree with? That FO3 changed the industry, or that Golden Age refers to the olden days?

The former, obviously. FO3 is nothing but reskinned Oblivion, not even a blip on the radar. Anyone who thinks it's a Great Satan is either a newfag and closeted Oblivion fanboy who has happily twitched the awesome button in blissful abandon all the way until 2008, or insane Fallout nut completely unaware of the world outside his holy franchise.

So mondblut, what do you disagree with? That FO3 changed the industry, or that Golden Age refers to the olden days?

The former, obviously. FO3 is nothing but reskinned Oblivion, not even a blip on the radar. Anyone who thinks it's a Great Satan is either a newfag and closeted Oblivion fanboy who has happily twitched the awesome button in blissful abandon all the way until 2008, or insane Fallout nut completely unaware of the world outside his holy franchise.

A shift in the industry comes from sales, not skins. FO3 tripled Oblivion's sales and clearly had the bigger impact on the industry. I'd say Skyrim was far more influenced by FO3, than FO3 was influenced by Oblivion. The fact that your talking about game mechanics means you and the people agreeing with you aren't even discussing the topic of this thread. Look, pretty much any game that Ushered in the modern age is subpar. We all know that. FO3 was more popular and captured the vision of that shift better with more gore and gimmicks and less crazy character advancement hoops to jump through. Worst gamer I ever knew beat Oblivion at level 8 or so because he played a rogue that never used rogue skills. Nowhere did I say FO3 was more innovative than Oblivion. That never had anything to do with this thread. It's almost like I said FO3 sold well and the industry changed, and people told me 2+2 = 7. wtf.

 

[Funposter]

FO3 tripled Oblivion's sales and clearly had the bigger impact on the industry.

Because it was Oblivion With Guns™. It took the dumbed-down style of Oblivion, and applied a skin which was more appealing to the general consumer. Fantasy RPG? Gross nerd shit. Game where I can kill mutants in my power armour while wielding a plasma rifle? Basically Halo. Furthermore, Fallout 3 did not come ANYWHERE CLOSE to tripling Oblivion's sales. As of 2015 (so around the release of Fallout 4), Oblivion had sold 9.5million lifetime units, and Fallout 3 had sold 12.4million. Fallout 3 also LAUNCHED on the PS3, increasing its ability to sell units on that platform, as opposed to Oblivion which iirc never got a PS3 release until 2007.

Fallout 3's increased sales can therefore be attributed to three factors:

1. Brand recognition of 'Bethesda Softworks' as a developer, after the enormours success of Oblivion.
2. An aesthetic more palatable to the general consumer (remember, this is one year after the release of Halo 3 and Call of Duty 4).
3. An extra launch platform, since AAA games sell most of their units within the launch period.

 

[mondblut]

A shift in the industry comes from sales, not skins.

Tell Plato that "golden ages" are measured by whatever sells best. He'd piss into your eyes.

FO3 tripled Oblivion's sales and clearly had the bigger impact on the industry. I'd say Skyrim was far more influenced by FO3, than FO3 was influenced by Oblivion.

Nigga please. No sane person could tell any of these three apart.

Nowhere did I say FO3 was more innovative than Oblivion. That never had anything to do with this thread. It's almost like I said FO3 sold well and the industry changed, and people told me 2+2 = 7. wtf.

The industry has changed when windows 95 allowed retards near computers. Which, by the way, coincided with diablow (if you want to pinpoint one single game as a great herald of decline, that's your suspect). Everything after was mere steps on a long ladder leading down into the latrine. No individual step matters shit. Blame the player, don't blame the game.

 

[mondblut]

KoToR marks the shift from isometric to cinematic RPGs. KoToR runs more or less the same mechanics as Neverwinter Nights, but the presentation is completely different.

But NWN was already a massive decline. It's every bit as casual as KOTOR. In fact, KOTOR at very least allowed to drag two companions along, not one.

While being a decline with regards to companions, it wasn't a decline with regards to anything mechanics-wise & p&p-wise and was still a completely PC-based game, which is the topic of the message you're replying to. What you did was basically state a completely unrelated gripe about the game which, while true, has nothing to do with the point being discussed. Further, the expansions allowed more companions & the complaint there is then changed to the player's inability to control them properly, but this is still not the point being discussed.

The point being discussed is that BG2 was the last non-shit bioware game. KOTOR was a natural progression of NWN. Maybe NWN worked as a modding tool and a pocket MMO, I don't know nor care, but its single-player is indistinguishable from KOTOR. No gameplay, all muh cliched story. If bioware didn't snatch that juicy star wars license, KOTOR could have been NWN2.

 

[Higher Game]

MMORPG's might have damaged the community more than console casuals ever did...

 

[Funposter]

Warcraft 3 and World of Warcraft certainly destroyed the art direction of many games.

 

[Beastro]

MMORPG's might have damaged the community more than console casuals ever did...

No. There were still strong elements of RPGs in the early ones, supported by a community that both desired that adn went towards adding to the world they inhabited.

That changed with WoW and the latent anti-social aspects of that were there from the start, like disabled cross faction chat to save on customer service headaches, but also ruined those who wished to actually act out the Alliance/Horde conflict as more than just smarter NPCs to fight.

 

[Tweed]

Those first few years of UO were something special, hell even EQ pre-SoE had its moments even if Brad McQuaid secretly enjoyed torturing his playerbase.