Official Codex Discord Server

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
    Dismiss Notice

Torment I just finished Planescape: Torment and...

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by S.torch, Feb 8, 2019.

  1. NatureOfMan Educated

    NatureOfMan
    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2019
    Messages:
    76
    I am finally going to finish the game too after a lot of dropped playthroughs in late game. I am not going to praise the writing since we all are aware that it's excellent and it's getting kinda redundant but I've got to compliment the ammount of sidequests and the quality of some of them with a lot of them having different solutions. Apart from sidequests there are also NPCs that you can interact with through dialogue or even having the right item in the inventory for and they either teach Morte new taunts, boost your stats or even get you a new companion. It's all great and I am surprised people don't praise the optional content of the game more.

    Btw I am a fucking retard and had to use the Universal Hint System for getting the portal to Ravel, a thing I had done in my first playthrough but apparently forgot how. I feel pretty fucking dumb that I had to resort to cheating so I figure out I think I had actually solved by myself before.

    Still
    Show Spoiler
    Ravel directed me straight to the "place of steel and forges" or shit like that and after getting the bloody napkin I went to the Lower Ward and banged my head against the wall for like 2 hours talking to everyone in the Ward and in the Foundry and even doing braindead things such as joining the Godsmen in an alternate safe so I can see their super secret weapon. I thought that this might've been the portal itself since Ravel mentioned in the sensorium that it was not finished when she last looked at it or something like that. When I was in the Festhall I was with the impression that those dorms were places for Sensate members only to rest and I thought of them as acting like a tavern with NPCs offering flavour text and stuff. I even talked to the lady that gives you the keys to your dorm and I interpreted whatever she told me as typical innkeeper/merchant dialogue tree, maybe she offered me my room from the start and I wasn't as careful as in my older playthroughs.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 5
    • incline incline x 1
    ^ Top  
  2. ArchAngel Arcane

    ArchAngel
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2015
    Messages:
    11,690
    I don't know what Numanuma is, but I am sure you didn't play Tildes of Numeria :P
     
    ^ Top  
  3. JarlFrank I like Thief THIS much

    JarlFrank
    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2007
    Messages:
    23,545
    Location:
    Secret Lab of the Warrior-Magus of Esoteric RPGism
    See, the issue here is that talented writers like that only write some "additional" things like lore or single companion characters.
    Torment: Numenera had some good writers writing a bunch of companions, and you notice that these are of higher quality than the others. But the overall writing and story structure isn't anywhere near what PST was.

    Talented people should get leading roles and develop the overall story and structure, rather than just doing some smaller things that aren't the focus of the game.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 6
    ^ Top  
  4. hexer Arcane

    hexer
    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,520
    I didn't like TTON at all but I sincerely recommend you somehow play the first NieR which came out for PS3 / XBox 360.
    IMO that is the only other "Planescapey" game out there.

     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    • decline decline x 1
    ^ Top  
  5. KK1001 Savant

    KK1001
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2015
    Messages:
    494
    Planescape is great but I flip flop between the ending being a bit rushed and wanting Avellone to have fleshed out the last two planes a bit more vs the game culminating with perfect pacing
     
    ^ Top  
  6. Tom Selleck Arcane

    Tom Selleck
    Joined:
    May 6, 2013
    Messages:
    940
    "What can change the nature of a bookfag?"
     
    ^ Top  
  7. Morality Games Arcane Patron

    Morality Games
    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2013
    Messages:
    4,387
    PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Serpent in the Staglands Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    Different genres, but Primordia or Sanitarium would be better investments of time.

    T:ToN is what would happen if a AA Hollywood production company decided to make a homage to Orson Welles or Stanley Kubrick (A.I. by Steven Spielberg might serve as a practical analogy) -- designed and written by committee with little focused authorial vision in the narrative and no passion behind the themes and subject matter.

    There are some aspects of it that I like or thought were clever. I especially liked this off the main road quest where you alternate between using a party member to distract a guard (you have him take you on a tour and then choose the dialogue options that involve going on lengthy commentaries about different locations or items) while the rest of your party does a puzzle/skill check thing in order to steal the treasure he was guarding. If you choose the wrong dialogue options, the guard doesn't comment on anything and gets back to his post too soon. I thought this was pretty cool from a mechanical point of view, and if this kind of creativity had surfaced in the rest of the game, it would have been much better.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
    • Brofist Brofist x 5
    ^ Top  
  8. S.torch Learned

    S.torch
    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2019
    Messages:
    122
    Thanks for the recommendations. I'm checking it out, Primordia called my attention almost immediately.
    It surprises me a little that someone who commented a page back work in it, good signs.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  9. Azarkon Arcane

    Azarkon
    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Messages:
    2,952
    Should you think Avellone isn't on par with the five you listed, you probably don't fully appreciate the difference between literature and game development.

    I could, of course, see how you'd evaluate him lower as a writer; but contrary to popular exaggeration, Planescape: Torment isn't a novel and the game's most brilliant moments would have fallen flat in that format.

    Consider the grand reveal. A novel version of that reveal would've been more or less banal:

    The sphere wrinkles in the Nameless One's hands, the skin of the sphere peeling away into tears and turning into a rain of bronze that encircles him. Each droplet, each fragment that enters him, he feels a new memory stirring, a lost love, a forgotten pain, an ache of loss - and with it, comes the great pressure of regret, regret of careless actions, the regret of suffering, regret of war, regret of death, and he feels his mind begin buckling from the pressure - so MUCH, all at once, so much damage done to others... so much so an entire FORTRESS may be built from such pain. And suddenly, through the torrent of regrets, he feels the first incarnation again. His hand, invisible and weightless, is upon the Nameless One's shoulder, steadying him. He doesn't speak, but with his touch, the Nameless One suddenly remembers his name. ... and it is such a simple thing, not at all what he thought it might be, and he feels himself suddenly comforted. In knowing his name, his true name, he knows that he has gained back perhaps the most important part of himself. In knowing his name, he knows himself, and he knows, now, there is very little he cannot do.

    In third person, it reads like fan fiction, full of melodrama and bathos. It works slightly better in first person, but still feels off, as though the character is narrating from outside of himself. But in second person - which is not going to work in almost any novel format beside a choose your own adventure, which are generally shit - and with the weight of the rest of the game informing your experience, the moment is pulled off as a poignant climax. Avellone's highest achievement is making it seem like what's happening is actually happening to YOU. Getting the player to identify with the role he's playing isn't an easy task, especially when that role comes with so much story.

    That's also why most of the attempts at getting best selling authors, ie Rothfuss in the new Torment, to enhance the narrative did not work. Because while those authors can contribute intricate prose and witty dialogue, that's not what defines the player experience even in a text heavy game like Planescape: Torment. Understanding the player's perspective, his agency, and his moment to moment involvement in the game is just as important or more important. This is what separates a game designer from a novel writer.

    Tolkien, Le Guin, and Gene Wolfe are marvelous at their craft but they are not game designers; and there is no evidence that they could have become master game designers, just because they could write. Creativity exists in many forms. Do you compare Scorsese to Beethoven? Then why compare Avellone to Tolkien?
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
    • Brofist Brofist x 9
    ^ Top  
  10. Taka-Haradin puolipeikko Arcane

    Taka-Haradin puolipeikko
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2015
    Messages:
    8,132
    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Bubbles In Memoria
    What are the games that even scratch that same (storyfag & C&C) itch as PS:T?
    TToN doesn't come even close quality wise.

    Any viable alternatives?
     
    ^ Top  
  11. Cael Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck

    Cael
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2017
    Messages:
    8,705
    I see that you have read Ed Greenwood's excrement. My condolences.
     
    ^ Top  
  12. hexer Arcane

    hexer
    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,520
    Fallout 2?
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    ^ Top  
  13. FeelTheRads Arcane Patron

    FeelTheRads
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2008
    Messages:
    12,752
    Sanitarium mentioned above would be one I guess. But not in the C&C department, it's an adventure game. Can't really say it has an actual story either. But somehow the atmosphere makes one think of PST. But I'm guessing most who are not newfags have already played that.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    ^ Top  
  14. Ladonna Magister

    Ladonna
    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2006
    Messages:
    1,934
    Not that I can think of. All of the games Avellone has had a significant hand in show a similar spark in them, but nothing that gives the same overall experience. He definately deserves his good name as a writer in the vidya game industry.

    You never know, he might be up for the challenge once he is an oldfag and his familial responsibilities move on. Or he might just embarrass himself. In any case, I agree with MRYs take on the happy coming together of abnormal circumstance that allowed this to happen.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  15. hivemind Scholar Pretty Princess

    hivemind
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2019
    Messages:
    770
    lol

    moron
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    • retadred retadred x 1
    ^ Top  
  16. hivemind Scholar Pretty Princess

    hivemind
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2019
    Messages:
    770
    alpha protocol is a better written GAME than planescape btw
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 5
    • cool story bro cool story bro x 1
    • retadred retadred x 1
    ^ Top  
  17. hivemind Scholar Pretty Princess

    hivemind
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2019
    Messages:
    770
    you may not like it but this is what peak philosophical commentary on the human condition looks like

    [​IMG]
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 3
    • Prestigious Prestigious x 1
    ^ Top  
  18. hivemind Scholar Pretty Princess

    hivemind
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2019
    Messages:
    770
    b-but muh flying skull t-that lies to me

    kill yourself
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 3
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • retadred retadred x 1
    ^ Top  
  19. laclongquan Arcane

    laclongquan
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2007
    Messages:
    1,867,160
    Location:
    Searching for my kidnapped sister
    The exact tone of PST? Nope. That's why it's unassailably number 1 in our top 70 RPG of all times.

    The emotions, the feels of the text? Might be. Question is: your mileage may vary.

    1. Chronos Cross. Contrary to Trigger, Cross can raise some very deep feel of nostalgia in my psyche. The tone, the setting... If you want some tropical feel coupled with nostagia, Cross is your game. Of course, the quote "Be careful when you stare into the flame...For the flame will also stare back at you" and the sub-branch of Lynx story can be quite interesting too.

    2. NWN2 Mask of the Betrayer. It's not the Akachi's fate, or our MC's role, but the Romance between Founder and Akachi. The obsession, mang~ One man betray his god and launch a revolt, the other fuck up a lot of people's lives to restore her lover. ANd you might argue that Founder fuck up her own lives thereafter too, considering her relation with Safiya, Lienna, and Nefris. Safiya is one confused chick~

    3. Star Wars: Knight of the Old Republic 1. What can change the nature of a Sith Lord? I know, some of you think it's too much like instant food/french fry. Yet the question it pose remain: Should an evil overlord forget his memory, would he walk the same path again? Or not? Was a man his memory? Or more.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  20. Chippy Liturgist

    Chippy
    Joined:
    May 5, 2018
    Messages:
    1,291
    There might be a point where all the youngsters get a bit of life experience in them and their IQ peaks, and they realize what a masterpiece this game is. I just don't think there will ever be enough of them.
     
    ^ Top  
  21. CappenVarra phantasmist Patron

    CappenVarra
    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2011
    Messages:
    2,134
    Location:
    Ardamai
    brofisted just for for having good taste, which one can easily take for granted - but is actually in short supply (as aptly demonstrated by the follow-up poster).

    disrespectfully disagree, dear generic reader brainwashed by modern literature studies.

    if your goal is to come off as a lame hipster whose opinions on fantasy and/or fantasy RPGs can be discarded without consideration - congratulations, splendid job!

    i can (somewhat) understand people who dislike Tolkien, Le Guin, or Howard - but Vance, Lieber, or Zelazny? just means you're no bro of mine; do not resuscitate, do not admit into the vault.

    :bunkertime:

    since we're (sort of) talking about Planescape, you think your hipster choices could do it better justice than Vance (The Moon Moth), Lieber (Gonna Roll the Bones), or e.g. L. Sprague de Camp (The Clocks of Iraz)?

    it's currently fashionable to hate on things loved by generations which created the genre, and your adherence to this fashion aptly identifies you. that is all.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  22. MRY Prestigious Gentleman Wormwood Studios Developer

    MRY
    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Messages:
    4,426
    Location:
    California
    Hmm, I thought I've made this point often enough myself that it would go without saying. I was just responding to the "existence of literature" point made in reply to my initial post.

    Here's what I said in a recent interview:

    Gospel.

    Ibid.

    Ibid.

    Seriously, I can't improve on what you wrote, except to say that comparing Avellone to Tolkien is less absurd that Scorsese to Beethoven so they're both word-writers and story-tellers working in the fantasy genre.

    For what it's worth, when Darth Roxor wrote his editorial about RPG Writing years ago, I wrote two responses, neither of which I published because (1) I love DR too much to argue with him and (2) I was concerned that it would seem like I was mounting a defense of (or, worse, an attack on) TTON.

    Now that enough time has passed, and since it is directly on point, I'll post one of them, which is less disputatious. I never really finished polishing it, and I haven't read it in forever, so I'm not even sure I still believe what it says, but in any event, here goes:
    Show Spoiler

     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
    • Brofist Brofist x 20
    ^ Top  
  23. Infinitron I post news Patron

    Infinitron
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    78,422
    Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Hot damn, can we still post that on the front page MRY
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 4
    ^ Top  
  24. MRY Prestigious Gentleman Wormwood Studios Developer

    MRY
    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Messages:
    4,426
    Location:
    California
    Let me give it a read through first...
     
    ^ Top  
  25. IncendiaryDevice Self-Ejected Village Idiot

    Self-Ejected
    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2014
    Messages:
    7,407
    [​IMG]
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 4
    ^ Top  

(buying stuff via the above buttons helps us pay the hosting bills, thanks!)