MGS V vs Sniper Elite 4 vs Hitman

[Zombra]

I just can't think of any way to make a game where both stealth and shoot-outs fit the engine/mechanics and are actually fun.

This may be a bit out of left field but HITMAN™ comes to mind.

 

[Lurker47]

I just can't think of any way to make a game where both stealth and shoot-outs fit the engine/mechanics and are actually fun.

This may be a bit out of left field but HITMAN™ comes to mind.

Never played them but that seems kind of hard for me to see. Can you explain?

 

[sullynathan]

I just can't think of any way to make a game where both stealth and shoot-outs fit the engine/mechanics and are actually fun.

MGSV where both the action and stealth mechanics are good - great. It's a far better example than HITMAN, because shootouts and gun fights are far more creative and fun in MGSV than HITMAN.

Both stealth and shooting are worthwhile in the game while giving the player a wealth of options and "depth" in gameplay.

Splinter cell blacklist would also fit the bill. Generally speaking, I've seen no action rpg developer come close to making gameplay like this.

 

[unfairlight]

MGS V is barely a stealth game, though. All your non lethal tools are just as (if not more) effective as the lethal ones and usually completely silent to boot, meaning you can just go in non-lethally shooting and still come out with a very high or even perfect rating. If you get caught, then there's slow mo and you can just KO anyone who saw you with your extended mag AP sleeping dart Makarov. Camo also does nothing and the guards all have a flat 25m view distance. MGS V only really qualifies as a proper stealth game if it's in Subsistence mode, which is in like 3 missions total and only available for other missions if you use mods.
I think Sniper Elite 4 did the same as MGS V, except better. Practically all of that game was way better than MGS V, stealth in particular.

 

[sullynathan]

MGS V is barely a stealth game, though. All your non lethal tools are just as (if not more) effective as the lethal ones and usually completely silent to boot, meaning you can just go in non-lethally shooting and still come out with a very high or even perfect rating. If you get caught, then there's slow mo and you can just KO anyone who saw you with your extended mag AP sleeping dart Makarov. Camo also does nothing and the guards all have a flat 25m view distance. MGS V only really qualifies as a proper stealth game if it's in Subsistence mode, which is in like 3 missions total and only available for other missions if you use mods.
I think Sniper Elite 4 did the same as MGS V, except better. Practically all of that game was way better than MGS V, stealth in particular.

Sniper elite has shit shooting mechanics and doesn't even touch the gameplay creativity that can be had in MGSV. It doesn't come close to having "practically all of the game" being better than MGSV.

Your silencers do make noise if used in proximity to other enemies. Your silencers also break.

Personally I don't give a shit about rating nor do I see the reason you're pointing it out. It's not a stealth game because of rating? Many stealth games have a rating system (Thief doesn't).

Is your argument that the game isn't much of a stealth game because non-lethal mechanics are very useful? This is dumb. That's stealth gaming 101. Every major stealth game is like this.

Finally, no non-lethal option is more effective than just killing enemies with strong vehicles like tanks or calling air strikes which are all lethal options.

 

[unfairlight]

Sniper elite has shit shooting mechanics

Not really. Have you actually played SE4? It's a far cry from SE 2 and 3, I think it's just as good as MGS V. MGS V really didn't have exceptional shooting mechanics either, and Sniper Elite was better than MGS V in the sniping mechanics obviously.

doesn't even touch the gameplay creativity that can be had in MGSV.

Relatively valid but in MGS V it's often just 20 different ways to complete the exact same task. Sniper Elite 4 still offers plenty of gameplay creativity too.

Your silencers do make noise if used in proximity to other enemies. Your silencers also break.

True, but I always saw that as more of an annoyance than an actual gameplay challenge to tackle. MGS V had a lot of waiting, waiting for supply drops so you can get more suppressors is one massive example of it.

Personally I don't give a shit about rating nor do I see the reason you're pointing it out. It's not a stealth game because of rating? Many stealth games have a rating system (Thief doesn't).

My point is that if you use OP shit like sleeping grenades or Quiet with ZZZ sniper then you can practically play it as a regular TPS and still have the same S ranking as someone who crawled and dodged every single enemy on the map and only completed his objective.

strong vehicles like tanks

Those went down so rapidly that they were really not worth using from my experience.

calling air strikes

Buuuuuut there was also sleeping gas dispersal in the game that are just as effective making it all pointless. I recall it also being completely silent instead of having a loud explosion. May be mistaken with that since I haven't played it since 2016 or 2017.

 

[sullynathan]

My point is that if you use OP shit like sleeping grenades or Quiet with ZZZ sniper then you can practically play it as a regular TPS and still have the same S ranking as someone who crawled and dodged every single enemy on the map and only completed his objective.

This is a non-point. MGSV is a "Tacticool Espionage game", not a slow hide in the dark stealth game. It has to make more than hiding in the dark viable and fun to play, not just sneaking around blaccjacking every guard.

Not really. Have you actually played SE4? It's a far cry from SE 2 and 3, I think it's just as good as MGS V. MGS V really didn't have exceptional shooting mechanics either, and Sniper Elite was better than MGS V in the sniping mechanics obviously.

Those went down so rapidly that they were really not worth using from my experience.

What? You can hijack multiple vehicles and keep them ready or call on them when you need.

Buuuuuut there was also sleeping gas dispersal in the game that are just as effective making it all pointless. I recall it also being completely silent instead of having a loud explosion. May be mistaken with that since I haven't played it since 2016 or 2017.

Missing with your tranquilizer or silenced guns make noise.

True, but I always saw that as more of an annoyance than an actual gameplay challenge to tackle. MGS V had a lot of waiting, waiting for supply drops so you can get more suppressors is one massive example of it.

Don't waste suppressors? Fully carry as many weapons with suppressors?

Relatively valid but in MGS V it's often just 20 different ways to complete the exact same task. Sniper Elite 4 still offers plenty of gameplay creativity too.

So, like every other game that gives objective and asks you the player to tackle it how you want to? That's a video game. The game says go her and extract prisoner. You then have hundreds (exaggerration) of ways to complete said task. With the wealth of weapons and gameplay options, MGSV gameplay can immediately translate well into an action rpg like The Outer Worlds that is supposed to give you these same options.

Not really. Have you actually played SE4? It's a far cry from SE 2 and 3, I think it's just as good as MGS V. MGS V really didn't have exceptional shooting mechanics either, and Sniper Elite was better than MGS V in the sniping mechanics obviously.

MGSV has great shootouts and encounters because of all the mechanics you're given. Even Sniper Elite 3 (the one I played), doesn't touch this, outside of pure sniping. In Sniper Elite, Lethal options are outright better than the less lethal ones, but this can be excused being that it's in war.

 

[unfairlight]

What? You can hijack multiple vehicles and keep them ready or call on them when you need.

I know you can fulton them. My point still stands, they were still a waste of time. Why should I bother? I can be just as effective carrying some powerful grenade launchers like the Hail MGR which was my personal favourite since it had a rangefinder sight and allowed it to be used as basically a portable mortar. Vehicles are also a resource I have to grind instead of just being able to buy them, so when they're gone they're gone. Too much hassle for too little gain.

Missing with your tranquilizer or silenced guns make noise.

An inconsequential amount of noise.

Don't waste suppressors? Fully carry as many weapons with suppressors?

I am bound to run out of suppressors eventually, even if every shot I fire is going to be a headshot and instant KO/kill. As I said, it's not an actual gameplay challenge and even if I do waste them I can just call in more whenever I feel like. It's just a pointless resource dump and more padding and waiting, not something that is an actual limited resource and something I will have to manage like it was in MGS 3.

MGSV has great shootouts and encounters because of all the mechanics you're given. Even Sniper Elite 3 (the one I played), doesn't touch this, outside of pure sniping. In Sniper Elite, Lethal options are outright better than the less lethal ones, but this can be excused being that it's in war.

Don't talk about SE4 on the experience gained from SE3. They're wildly different games, and SE4 is honestly one of the best stealth games of recent times. There's a lot more liberty in gameplay, the level design is way better and practically every aspect of gameplay was improved from SE3.

 

[sullynathan]

I know you can fulton them. My point still stands, they were still a waste of time. Why should I bother? I can be just as effective carrying some powerful grenade launchers like the Hail MGR which was my personal favourite since it had a rangefinder sight and allowed it to be used as basically a portable mortar. Vehicles are also a resource I have to grind instead of just being able to buy them, so when they're gone they're gone. Too much hassle for too little gain.

You're actually proving my point here. I only proposed using vehicles as a viable "lethal option" in contrast to you claiming that silenced weapons are likely more effective tools to use. Bringing a grenade launcher, more loud rifles, etc. still sticks with my point.

Vehicles are not a grind. You go into an area that actually has enemies in vehicles, defeat them and then fulton them, or you cause enough chaos till you start fighting enemies that use vehicles and then fulton them. All you have to remember is to fulton your own vehicles after use or to keep them close when you're extracting from mission. The game will take care it for you.

If they'e a grind, then you're a dumbass playing the game wrong. You manage your resources properly and always have enough fultons to take what is important.

An inconsequential amount of noise.

That can alert guards.

I am bound to run out of suppressors eventually, even if every shot I fire is going to be a headshot and instant KO/kill. As I said, it's not an actual gameplay challenge and even if I do waste them I can just call in more whenever I feel like. It's just a pointless resource dump and more padding and waiting, not something that is an actual limited resource and something I will have to manage like it was in MGS 3.

Gameplay challenge is not what were here to talk about. We are talking about a game in which both stealth and action are fun and viable. That is MGSV. Stealth games are not hard, and are rarely challenging at that.
Any game that allows you a gun will allow you to K.O./kill an enemy by shooting them in the head. This occurs in Sniper Elite, and occurs in Splinter Cell, a stealth game. No stealth game has proper resource management either, they will usually allow your suppressors to be unbreakable because they're games in closed systems and worlds, not free form open world sandboxes like MGSV.

If you get back the suppressors you want by spending the resources you earned, that is not pointless, that's playing the damn game the way it was made to be played. Do you understand?

Don't talk about SE4 on the experience gained from SE3. They're wildly different games, and SE4 is honestly one of the best stealth games of recent times. There's a lot more liberty in gameplay, the level design is way better and practically every aspect of gameplay was improved from SE3.

I will talk about because it doesn't contradict my points.

If you're finished, lets get bacc on topic before Infinitron removes our posts.

 

[unfairlight]

You're actually proving my point here. I only proposed using vehicles as a viable "lethal option" in contrast to you claiming that silenced weapons are likely more effective tools to use. Bringing a grenade launcher, more loud rifles, etc. still sticks with my point.

Issue is that there's still non-lethal grenade launchers too that are just as good if not better.

That can alert guards.

IIRC it isn't actually enough to put them into alert status, they'll get scared by it but they will leave that status pretty fast.

No stealth game has proper resource management either, they will usually allow your suppressors to be unbreakable because they're games in closed systems and worlds, not free form open world sandboxes like MGSV.

Except for Splinter Cell and Thief, where it's rather easy to run out of airfoil rounds and sticky shockers or gas arrows, flashbombs and fire arrows. Or Sniper Elite, where you can run out of landmines and consumables such as medical supplies. Or Hitman, where you can run out of anaesthetic, poison, coins and mines. I'm also pretty certain there was no way to get unlimited amounts of suppressors in MGS 3, you could get some from around the map and some from shaking down the guards, but that was it as I recall.

If you get back the suppressors you want by spending the resources you earned, that is not pointless, that's playing the damn game the way it was made to be played. Do you understand?

The amount of resources you spend to just get suppressors is so tiny and irrelevant. I was never at a point where I could not afford supply drops. It's pointless because of that as a result. Waiting 30-40 seconds each time you just want to stock up on consumables is just annoying. You'll probably spending at least full hour of game time just waiting for supply drops throughout the entire thing.

This occurs in Sniper Elite

In SE4 your stealthy variants of weapons are pretty bad at combat. As an example, the De Lisle carbine might be silent, but it also has no range at all, it has low damage, it's bolt action and its bullets will get fucked by the drop off and wind at longer ranges (which can get up to 1km, my farthest was 600m or so and I was having trouble at 300m with the De Lisle). To do proper long distance sniping, you will need a loud rifle. In MGS V pretty much every single non-lethal option is more quiet and just as if not more effective than the lethal ones.

 

[CyberWhale]

Chad J. Thundercock all your points are pretty much immaterial to this debate. The fact that stealth is too easy to pull off or the rating system being too generous is a question of balance and quality of MGSV as a whole product, not of its basic systems/mechanics.

And those are pretty much top-notch when it comes to this kind of a game. Most of your complaints can be easily solved by changing a few lines in the code (or modified by the character sheet) and by removing some abilities (hidden behind perk choices).

 

[sullynathan]

IIRC it isn't actually enough to put them into alert status, they'll get scared by it but they will leave that status pretty fast.

They'll become suspicious, start searching, if they find you they become alert and potentially call other guards and sound an alarm like a stealth game should.

Issue is that there's still non-lethal grenade launchers too that are just as good if not better.

You mean the grenade launchers that fire sleep grenades that make sound upon detonation? It might be "non-lethal" but it isn't very stealthy as an option to use those in combat, better off using a lethal grenade.

Except for Splinter Cell and Thief, where it's rather easy to run out of airfoil rounds and sticky shockers or gas arrows, flashbombs and fire arrows.

Here's where I call BS and question how effectively you played these games. Every splinter cell game (barring conviction and double agent) starts you with two fully silenced guns: a silenced pistol and silenced SC-2000. You have full ammo and if you pick your shots, you'll not run out of ammo for them.

For thief, you already have your blackjack, it's better than a fire arrow. Matter of fact anything is better than engaging with thief's combat.

The amount of resources you spend to just get suppressors is so tiny and irrelevant. I was never at a point where I could not afford supply drops. It's pointless because of that as a result. Waiting 30-40 seconds each time you just want to stock up on consumables is just annoying. You'll probably spending at least full hour of game time just waiting for supply drops throughout the entire thing

It's so tiny and irrelevant that you spent time using it?

You're playing the game how its intended but also playing in the most boring way possible. Shoot a few enemies with a silenced gun then back out to call for more silencers? This just makes you wait for more time that you don't have to do. Are you lacking in creativity or do you just like purposefully making games boring?

 

[GrainWetski]

Never played them but that seems kind of hard for me to see. Can you explain?

The shooting sucks in sHITMAN℠®©℗

 

[ultra loser]

This game looks funnier every time I see it and I mean it in a bad way. Nobody can see or hear you and you beat their ass like some capeshit hero.

 

[J_C]

This game looks funnier every time I see it and I mean it in a bad way. Nobody can see or hear you and you beat their ass like some capeshit hero.

You deserve your nickname alright.

 

[sullynathan]

If you're finished, lets get bacc on topic before Infinitron removes our posts.

Infinitron

 

[Falksi]

It's frightening how many steps backwards MGS V has taken from the original Playstation MGS.

What was once a wonderfully woven stealth/action/story, is now just another empty "Open World" trawl, with trial & error the order of the day.

 

[J_C]

It's frightening how many steps backwards MGS V has taken from the original Playstation MGS.

What was once a wonderfully woven stealth/action/story, is now just another empty "Open World" trawl, with trial & error the order of the day.

The game mechanics of MGS V is leaps and bounds above any other MGS games, and you can take this from an MGS fanboy who hates MGS V. Because in terms of storytelling and character, it is the worst in the series. Oh, and being open world sucks. But the game mechanics are amazingly smooth and well done.

 

[Lurker47]

This is the first time I've seen Codex mods actually do something besides giving someone a funny nickname.

 

[Falksi]

It's frightening how many steps backwards MGS V has taken from the original Playstation MGS.

What was once a wonderfully woven stealth/action/story, is now just another empty "Open World" trawl, with trial & error the order of the day.

The game mechanics of MGS V is leaps and bounds above any other MGS games, and you can take this from an MGS fanboy who hates MGS V. Because in terms of storytelling and character, it is the worst in the series. Oh, and being open world sucks. But the game mechanics are amazingly smooth and well done.

Course. I was just talking in general. Game mechanics are good, they're just used in a totally bland, pointless, repetitive world.

And, as good as they are technically, I still remember enjoying the play in MGS1 far more than any play in MGSV

 

[what am i doing]

I just can't think of any way to make a game where both stealth and shoot-outs fit the engine/mechanics and are actually fun.

SWAT, my dude - if you accept ambush / surprise as stealth. Generally, there is a fair bit of it. If you're not abusing beanbag shotguns, then one of the big things you want to be doing a lot of the time is sneaking up on enemies and getting a gun trained on them so that when you do yell for them to drop their weapon and get down, you have the maximum amount of time to see whether they're going to comply or shoot. Or, quietly getting close enough to tase an unaware suspect. Generally, the fewer enemies are alerted at a given time, the better. But at the same time sometimes it does turn into a shootout, depending on the situation and how chaotic the environment is. For example, an enemy might run without taking aim at you, so you can't shoot him, and then he alerts the others. Or perhaps there are civilians who are in imminent danger and you have to kill the suspects immediately. So the series has both stealth and shooting; they're both fun and work together fairly seamlessly.

 

[Master]

Except for Splinter Cell and Thief, where it's rather easy to run out of airfoil rounds and sticky shockers or gas arrows, flashbombs and fire arrows.

Here's where I call BS and question how effectively you played these games. Every splinter cell game (barring conviction and double agent) starts you with two fully silenced guns: a silenced pistol and silenced SC-2000. You have full ammo and if you pick your shots, you'll not run out of ammo for them.

Theres actually not a lot of ammo for the rifle, and you burn trough it rather quickly in a firefight. Also the pistol is pretty hard to use and if i recall isnt completely silent either.

 

[unfairlight]

They'll become suspicious, start searching, if they find you they become alert and potentially call other guards and sound an alarm like a stealth game should.

Maybe so, as I said I haven't played it in a while.

Here's where I call BS and question how effectively you played these games. Every splinter cell game (barring conviction and double agent) starts you with two fully silenced guns: a silenced pistol and silenced SC-2000. You have full ammo and if you pick your shots, you'll not run out of ammo for them.

In SC1 and PT, it varied from mission to mission but I recall it usually being 60 rounds on F2000 and 40 on 5.7 on spawn. However both of those games were made with firefights in mind and ammunition was a lot more common around the map.
In Chaos Theory you had 3 equipment choices, Assault, Stealth and Redding's Recommendation. Assault started you out with 90 shots on the F2000 and 60 on the 5.7. Redding's Recommendation was 60 and 40, and Stealth was 30 and 20. Assault and Redding's also gave you a underbarrel shotgun or 20mm sniper depending on mission instead of a foregrip or launcher, Stealth only gave you a foregrip and launcher in all missions.
Yes, truth be told it is possible that if you hit 100% of your shots on the head, you can kill most of the NPCs on the map with just 1 or 2 magazines. Issue is, the Five SeveN and F2000 are really inaccurate. The only truly accurate weapon in the entire game is the 20mm sniper attachment on the F2000 and sticky shockers/airfoil rounds. Even if you are aiming perfectly using the foregrip, holding breath and using sight, you will miss due to the inherent inaccuracy of the 2 main weapons and your options then are to have a firefight or savescum, the former of which will rapidly decrease your ammo reserves since enemies don't go down easy with bodyshots.

Also the pistol is pretty hard to use and if i recall isnt completely silent either.

You'd be correct, all shots and even the launcher will always make some noise, but depending on how loud of a place you are in your shots can be quieter than the environment and be totally masked. Same with all sounds you make. This feature is not present in any SC games other than CT, it may have been in the PS2, Xbox, Gamecube and Wii version of Double Agent (6th and 7th gen versions of the game were completely different and made by different studios) but that's the only SC game I have not played.

It's so tiny and irrelevant that you spent time using it?

You're playing the game how its intended but also playing in the most boring way possible. Shoot a few enemies with a silenced gun then back out to call for more silencers? This just makes you wait for more time that you don't have to do. Are you lacking in creativity or do you just like purposefully making games boring?

What the fuck do you even mean by the first part? The amount of RESOURCES/GMP you had to use to call in supply drops was tiny and irrelevant. They may as well have made supply drops free or removed the temporary suppressors, since it was never a limitation for me to call in extra suppressors and not an actual limited resource as it was in MGS 3.
No, most of the time I played trying to move rapidly and getting in and out as fast as possible and avoiding as many enemies as possible. I try to play stealth games ghost only, unless I happened to get bored and just run around guard outpost to guard outpost shooting them with a revolver and side by side.

SWAT, my dude - if you accept ambush / surprise as stealth.

Ghost Recon and Rainbow Six just as well. Or Hidden and Dangerous and Arma, even.

 

[Master]

Right, i forgot about environment sounds masking your own.
Another thing is that enemies in SC(CT) are just deadly. In that MGSV video above, what would happen in SC is that the soldiers would just kill you the moment they saw you.

 

[unfairlight]

On easy they weren't too deadly but on hard and expert they basically always 2shotted you.