Game News NWN must DIE

[Volourn]

"They're stopping *Bioware* from officially supporting the game, because Bioware isn't turning to them a single cent of the profits from the premium modules."

Are you sure about this? BIO cna't sell anything with the D&D logo without paying something to Atari. Nice try; though.


"It makes sense if you consider Obsidian being Black Isle 2, Atari is Interplay 2."

Analogy is poor. BIS was just a division of Interplay. Obsidian is a development company that signed a contract with Atari for NWN. Obsidian can sign with other publishers; BIS can't because it was no matter how you cut it, Interplay (division of). This is why obsidian has a deal with Sega.


"because Bioware isn't turning to them a single cent of the profits from the premium modules."

3 times you say the same exact thing with no proof. Heck, not even pseudo evidence from anyone actually involved. DLA suggests that you are wrong, and they know a lot more about this situation then you do.




"In effect, Bioware is making a profit off of Atari's license (D&D) and not cutting them a share. In that sense, Bioware *is* most definitely competition, especially if their premium module support trump what Obsidian can offer for NWN 2 (and that's entirely possible, given that Atari is in dire financial straits and Bioware has vast resources)."

More bull. Espicially since according to DLA BIO seemed to have plans to make PM for NWN2 as well.. which would have been a boon to NWN2's post release support... now seemingly BIO isn't too interested in doing that more.. this includes a sequel to a popular NWN2 PM..

No matter how you slice it this can only spell bad news for NWN2 not good news. This is simply desperation on the part of Atari that if anything may backfire.

Or to put it this way: This will likely cost Atari more sales than it will gain for them.


I mean LOLOLOLOLLIPOP Does Atari feel that NWN2 is so weak that it can't compete against a 4 year old game that it's a sequel to? Come on, give me a break. And, I'm the last person who would flame Atari as I've generally been positvie about them.

 

[Azarkon]

Are you sure about this? BIO cna't sell anything with the D&D logo without paying something to Atari. Nice try; though.

Here's the quote from the DLA site:

"Remember - BioWare controls the BioWare store and they get the money first; they ain't sending Atari a cheque when Atari is not returning the favor. Atari would have been effectively forced to pay one of their accounts payable by way of set-off. So, in that sense, a liability is reduced on Atari's balance sheet - but Atari gets no cashflow out of it because Atari just isn't paying their bills as they should."

Sounds like Atari isn't making a cent from Bio's selling of the premium modules, at least no in the sense that they're seeing the money (which is all-important when dealing with the fiscal report). The situation is of course more complicated than first stated, but the end result is the same: they're not getting paid (due to their own faults, of course) for the modules, they need money *now*, and they're expecting competition from the modules towards NWN 2. Atari stands to profit alot more from NWN 2 than they can ever hope to profit from premium modules. Therefore, they're going to try and do whatever's necessary to ensure that NWN 2 is a success, because they stand to make alot from NWN 2 (the box sales go to Atari, not Obsidian, unlike the premium modules, which go to Bio first).

My point is that their intentions (ensuring that NWN 2 is successful at the price of cutting off Bio's premium module service) are not wrong. Their intentions are what any company in their position would do, given that Atari's relationship with Bio is far from honkey dory. However, their method of achieving that intent is clearly disastrous, and will likely lead to the detriment of NWN 2.

 

[Dhruin]

Huh? That quote doesn't say Atari gets not money from BioWare. It says Atari has been stiffing BioWare on their dues from NWN sales, so he assumes BioWare offsets what they owe on Premium Modules against that deficit.

Just because cash isn't being handed over doesn't mean they aren't being paid. In this case, Steel_Wind believes Atari owes Bio more than Bio owes Atari. It's still real money, even if it's debits and credits on a ledger.

 

[Mefi]

Got to remember that this seems to be Atari's policy with regards to games. It seems that Atari have very restrictive licensing agreements which give them teh powah not only as publisher but also as license holder.

Paradox were told by Atari that they weren't allowed to patch Diplomacy any more (after 3 patches IIRC). Oh and they weren't allowed to release modding tools. Paradox issued a statement about it which very politely pointed the finger.

ToEE - 3 patches. No modding tools.

etc etc

So it makes sense for me that Atari is finally getting tough with the NWN modding and modules before it can impact on NWN2 sales. It's their policy and you add in potential lost revenue and Atari becomes even arsier.

Vol - it doesn't matter what Atari are worried about. NWN2 is their golden goose. And comparisons to NWN may not be helpful to it selling well. NWN has gone well beyond the game out of the box, and certain things which have been added could well piss all over NWN2 vanilla.

 

[Volourn]

1. Risking lawsuits from BIo (and others) because you don't them what you owe them is not smart business. Just ask www.interplay.com where that leads to.

2. Anyone who thinks that NWN1 will somehow stop NWN2 from being financially successful is on crack. Period.

Afterall, aren't sequels made *because* the original was successful?


"Sounds like Atari isn't making a cent from Bio's selling of the premium modules, at least no in the sense that they're seeing the money (which is all-important when dealing with the fiscal report)."

Sure, they are. BIO would have no problem giving Atari money from DD as agreed upon if Atari wasn't SEALING (ie. withholding) money they owe BIO. Again, check out www.interplay.com, to see how they piss contest move works out.

Besdies, continued support of NWN1 can only be seen as GOOD for NWN2; not negative. Unless you are desperate and stupid like Atari seemingly is.


"So it makes sense for me that Atari is finally getting tough with the NWN modding and modules before it can impact on NWN2 sales. It's their policy and you add in potential lost revenue and Atari becomes even arsier."

BIO had no plans to support NWN1 after this year, anyways. 3 more PM were due out this summer, and 1.68 (the enxt patch) wa sliekly going to be the last anyways. BIo *did* have plans to likely support NWN2 PM including a sequel to a popular NWN1 PM; but it seems BIO had put the kibosh of that because of Atari doing what they did (obviously, BIO doesn't want to deal with them anymore).

Stupid, stupid Atari. BIO developed PM would likely have helped INCREASED sales for NWN2 not decrease them since BIO is well known and well liked (outside of the Codex, heh). LOLOLLIPOP



P.S. All this, of course, is based on DLA stating the full truth and not just a biased one sided view of it...

 

[Azarkon]

Huh? That quote doesn't say Atari gets not money from BioWare. It says Atari has been stiffing BioWare on their dues from NWN sales, so he assumes BioWare offsets what they owe on Premium Modules against that deficit.

Just because cash isn't being handed over doesn't mean they aren't being paid. In this case, Steel_Wind believes Atari owes Bio more than Bio owes Atari. It's still real money, even if it's debits and credits on a ledger.

But see, Atari is fine with owing Bio a lot of money as a delay tactic. Atari is not fine with a fiscal report that indicates low cash flow, because that's what determines their company image. They need *revenue*, and premium modules do not provide revenue (if DLA is to be believed). And even if they were actually being paid by Bio for each module, it'd be a pittance compared to what NWN 2 is projected to earn. (First, premium modules weren't that popular to begin with; second, Bio self-publishes them, and therefore only has to pay a royalty to Atari, instead of the publication cut). Premium modules are therefore EASILY expendable if it means even a few more boxes of NWN 2 being sold.

Support for old games, like support for old software in general, is often cut off *not* solely because the company in question doesn't want to waste money supporting obsolete software, but also because the company in question wants to encourage end users to buy their new software. Atari could care less about the former since they're not financing NWN's updates anyhow. But they do care alot about the latter.

And frankly, if they played their cards right I do think that denying support for NWN would be beneficial to NWN 2 sales. The trick is to play the PR card right and to make it seem that people are leaving NWN willingly for greener pastures. The bandwagon effect should not be underestimated, and if you can beguile the greater part of the NWN modding community to NWN 2 the rest will likely follow, forcing, in turn, the fans who were satisfied with NWN's modding scene to buy NWN 2 because said scene would have disappeared. On the other hand, if you *don't* do this, there is no guarantee that the NWN community will make the switch, especially if they're anticipating continued premium module support from Bioware whereas Obsidian has no plans of the sort. If hardcore gamers should teach you anything, it's that they don't let go easily.

Problem is, Atari's heavy-handed tactics have caused the opposite effect - they've not only alienated the NWN modders but, worse, made them martyrs for a cause: the boycotting of NWN 2.

 

[Mefi]

@ Vol -

I think you're absolutely right Vol. It's worrying if you do enjoy NWN and were planning on NWN2 having the same modding capabilities etc etc. I know Bioware were planning to withdraw support for the original but weren't they planning some last little legacies to say thanks to the community which have now been shelved? (Might be the patch and modules you mention). It's not that these things would cost Atari sales of NWN2, I totally agree it would be the reverse for people who already have NWN - it's Atari being irrational at the moment because they are so desperate for NWN2 to sell well. But.. patched and modded NWN could well be considered to have features and improvements that will be lacking in vanilla NWN2. And Atari just cannot afford to have those comparisons made. That's why it makes sense, no matter how perverse, for Atari do this.

I'm not a fan of the NWN series; it's the D&D license which interests me because of ToEE. (Gratuitous mention of Co8 version 5 now being in beta goes here). Atari are in such financial shit that they are trying to screw licenses to get every cent in. They're already locked into a ludicrously fast production cycle which has had the impact of reducing games sales even further year on year. NWN2 is close to their last chance of making a massive seller which will restore their reputation. Fucking off Bioware and the community over there isn't perhaps the wisest decision ever. But then Atari are assuming that those people will be buying NWN2 no matter what Atari does; Atari needs the casual gamer market which Bethesda has been chasing with Oblivion.

 

[Volourn]

Good posts overall; but I still say this hurts NWN2 sales more than it helps.

Of course, NWN2 was and remains a guarantee to sell a million + copies pretty much no matter what...


"But see, Atari is fine with owing Bio a lot of money as a delay tactic."

www. interplay.com

 

[bryce777]

Well, as for them costing sales of nwn2, that's silly.

People who even consider playing mods are already pretty much rabid fans who are guaranteed sells, anyhow.

 

[Mefi]

Well, as for them costing sales of nwn2, that's silly.

People who even consider playing mods are already pretty much rabid fans who are guaranteed sells, anyhow.

True. But consider how rushed NWN2 is. It's on a very short development cycle. Vol is our resident expert on the subject but I think I'm right that certain things have been axed or radically reduced. Atari's idea of a great press release on new features was, erm, a list of new NPCs. That's all. New NPCs and more options in using them. That was their press release from E3.

So you've got this new game which is inevitably going to be compared to the previous incarnation. This will be in reviews and by gamers. It's bad mojo for Atari and it will cost them the immediate sales which they desperately need.

Income last quarter of 2005 was 200 million euros down on previous year. Sales are down quarter by quarter. Infrogames are selling off assets to keep afloat. Any chance, no matter how remote, of NWN2 not getting rave reviews is going to be dealt with. From what I can gather the developers of the mods were planning to introduce horses. NWN2 ain't got horses. Atari couldn't stop them from adding horses as part of the license as WotC had agreed to horses. And so Atari went for their other option - stop the modules. I'm sure there were other things too, so that's just an example btw.

Is it crazy? Yup. But Atari isn't in a sane place right now.

 

[Llyranor]

Short dev cycle? You mean, longer than BG2?

 

[Ryuken]

Short dev cycle? You mean, longer than BG2?

Yeah, but that doesn't mean much. It probably lasts longer now because of: not the same devs of the first game, an improved toolset, a completely rewritten graphics engine, and a (hopefully) much better/deeper OC. The original game needed more than four years to come along I thought and even at the release some things weren't exactly 'ready'. If OE even has to delay the DM client then they definitely needed more time.

 

[Mefi]

Short dev cycle? You mean, longer than BG2?

Short as in a game which lost it's lead designer. Short development for a game which is not using an existing graphics engine as its base. Short development as in not shipping with a DM client but having a last minute rush job to finish it in time for release day so it can be downloaded then. Short as in it may actually be released before scheduled due to Atari's financial position.

edit: lol Ryuken posted in the meantime - serves me right for having the attention span of a gnat.

 

[aries202]

HI

Even if and when Atari pulls the official plug on
NWN 1 - nothing keeps the CEP and CC game modders (and community) from making mods and contents. It will just not be official ---

And as I have stated earlier I think - a company that is only in it in order to make money -

will not survive long in todays market. (in the computer industry or elsewhere).

You have to know the reason/the meaning of your business. And then take it from there.

And the real reason/meaning only is to make money - people will soon find that out. And negelct buying (their) products.

bye

 

[Jora]

I think I'm right that certain things have been axed or radically reduced.

Yes. Horse riding.

It wouldn't have affected the game much.

 

[Mefi]

I think I'm right that certain things have been axed or radically reduced.

Yes. Horse riding.

It wouldn't have affected the game much.

Is that the only thing confirmed so far Jora? I don't follow too much NWN2 news so I genuinely don't know too many specifics about it. I'll probably play it for a bit when released and then decide that it needs turn based combat .

My suspicion is that there will be more - perhaps something similar to what happened with KOTOR 2 by Oblivion when LucasArts pushed for a quick release. Quite happy to eat humble pie if I'm wrong in a few months time

 

[obediah]

I think I'm right that certain things have been axed or radically reduced.

Yes. Horse riding.

It wouldn't have affected the game much.

You've got a little NWN spooj on your chin there.

 

[aboyd]

Short dev cycle? You mean, longer than BG2?

Short as in a game which lost it's lead designer. Short development for a game which is not using an existing graphics engine as its base.

I don't think a game with a 3 year development cycle can be tagged as "short development" no matter how undesirable the circumstances. I don't think 3 years is "too short" even with a new graphics engine.

Perhaps "It's having very bad luck at the end of its development cycle" would be a more sensible way to express your point. I might even agree with such a statement.

-Tony

 

[Jora]

Is that the only thing confirmed so far Jora? I don't follow too much NWN2 news so I genuinely don't know too many specifics about it. I'll probably play it for a bit when released and then decide that it needs turn based combat .

Ridable horses are pretty much the only "big feature" that was promised and couldn't be included. It has been implied that the feature will be in an expansion pack.

You've got a little NWN spooj on your chin there.

Would riding really have changed anything? It's just a way of transport, nothing more.

(my relationship with NWN is that I somewhat liked HotU)

 

[Mefi]

Perhaps "It's having very bad luck at the end of its development cycle" would be a more sensible way to express your point. I might even agree with such a statement.

-Tony

It's had bad luck sure, but it's obviously been a short development cycle for Obsidian. I remember an article by the people who had made the graphics engine where they said that they were pushd for time in order to get things up and running. 2 - 3 year development cycle for the game is normal, preceeded by time for the engine (if needed). Star Trek:Legacy has been 4 years in development and has the same release date as NWN2. Same sort of 'gold standard' title. Oblivion had a 4 year cycle. Dragon Age has an even longer cycle (something like 43 months already).

There isn't any wriggle room left in the NWN2 schedule - hence the decision to not package the DMC. And if you haven't got wriggle room in the last few months before release, then you are going to be looking for things to cut out. If you are in that position then your development cycle was too short for the game you were making. Usually a developer will ask for the release to be pushed back but I don't think that's an option here due to Atari's financial position.

I rest my case, m'lud.

 

[obediah]

You've got a little NWN spooj on your chin there.

Would riding really have changed anything? It's just a way of transport, nothing more.

(my relationship with NWN is that I somewhat liked HotU)

Is horse riding the only thing to be cut or simplified because of time constraints? I seriuosly doubt it, even if it was the only thing announced/leaked.

 

[Jora]

Is horse riding the only thing to be cut or simplified because of time constraints? I seriuosly doubt it, even if it was the only thing announced/leaked.

Every game has features that have to be cut because of changing plans or time constraints. Of course NWN2 isn't different. But saying that there are lots of very important features that were cut late in the development cycle just because you have a feeling in your gut is silly.

 

[obediah]

Is horse riding the only thing to be cut or simplified because of time constraints? I seriuosly doubt it, even if it was the only thing announced/leaked.

Every game has features that have to be cut because of changing plans or time constraints. Of course NWN2 isn't different. But saying that there are lots of very important features that were cut late in the development cycle just because you have a feeling in your gut is silly.

That would be silly. Of course it would also be right for all of obsidian's other game, and is the sort of thing you see from publisher's in Atari's position. I'm not really following the development, so I don't know if Mefi's comment was pure speculation or if there is a basis for it. At the least there are horsies, the dm client, and Atari's financial position to feed the fires.

I'm fine waiting for a release or concrete news to decide for sure, but the title is certainly gaining the stink of a rush job.

 

[Voss]

Sorry, but 3 years isn't a short development period. Particularly for a sequel and especially something with Feargus '18 month slam dunk' Urquhart involved.

Name a game that wasn't developed by Blizzard that has had 'wiggle room' at the end of the development cycle. The entire industry has been shaving 'em down to the wire for years now. Theres generally a reason why devs are burnt out by the time a game goes gold- generally the 60+ hour work week in the preceding month.

 

[Azarkon]

I don't think they're starved for time per se. It's more that expectations are overly high (on both the devs' and players' side) for what sort of game can be made in three years.

NWN took Bio a very long time to develop. So long, in fact, that their graphics engine was outdated before the game was even released (my sources say five years). Even so, NWN came with a buttload of bugs (though not nearly as bad as, say, TOEE) and a craptastic OC. It's plain obvious that Obsidian, even if they were super devs, could not possibly have included the whole set of NWN features alongside a good OC alongside a modern graphics engine - all in less time than it took Bio to come up wtih a tileset-based game back in the heydays of low graphics expectations. And ontop of that, add rideable horses and a real z-axis? I'd like a bit of what they're smoking over at the Bio boards.

I don't think NWN 2 was meant to be a rush job, nor do I think it is a rush job by any existing standards. The truth of the matter is, NWN had *too many damn features*, and given the fact that Obsidian scrapped much of the NWN code base, including the all-important tileset engine and AI-based party control, it's plain unreasonable to expect that they would be able to come up with NWN 2 complete with ALL NWN features and a slew of improvements ontop of that. Bio, even with five years, had to cut corners (the OC, for example). To expect Obsidian to not cut corners is unrealistic, and I say screw'em to the fanboys who refuse to accept that.

The only alternative that could've happened, in this circumstance, is for Atari to give Obsidian an extension of two years on the game. That would've resulted in a repeat of NWN - NWN 2's graphics engine would've been relatively outdated in two years, but it would've had all the features of NWN and, to boot, what could be a very good OC. But to be honest, that's neither realistic nor practical in today's market, and there's a good reason Bio opted out of developing NWN 2 - after all, why would you spend another five years of your company's life developing someone else's IP, that they can - as demonstrated with this recent fiasco - hold over your nose? Screw that - they'd rather give Atari the finger and move onto DA. Unfortunately, Obsidian does not have that option, and that's what the Obsidian naysayers over at the Bio boards simply cannot understand in their blind devotion to their Bio god.