Game News NWN must DIE

[Saint_Proverbius]

Will it have an effect on NWN2 sales? Probably not much, but I'd be willing to bet it does mean that NWN2 will have no where near the amount of support NWN had. Obsidian isn't BioWare. They don't have nearly as deep of pockets as BioWare has and given Atari's track record on paying up.. I can't see the patches and modules coming out of Obsidian that BioWare's done over the years.

Oh yeah, and all you assbunnies claiming this wasn't news. It turned out to be true, and it does have an impact on the CRPG market both present and future. So, you bitches got p-fucking-wn3d.

 

[Volourn]

Rumours aren't news. Just because certain rumours turn out to be true doesn't chnage things.

And, those saying that NWN2 has had a short dev cycyle. Don't foll yourself. It's dev cycle is about the same or longer than BG2's. And, they both use pre existing engines (though NWN2 did change the graphics engine). The engine is still Aurora though or else how could people be able to use NWN1 scripts in NWN2 or how could Obsidian be able to use BIO's NWN1 patches in NWN2 (with some adjustments).

The only reason why the DMC got screwed out of the oirginal release is because early on, Obsidian stated that they werne't gonna touch the DMC and it would ship as is; but then just recently they went oops, we better work on it.

Nothing major has been cut and annoucned. Other than horses. Heh. However, one PRC they were planning to have got cut, the length has been up in the air (though Obsidian says 30-60 hours and I'm sure that's true except for those players who will somehow manage to beat it in 10 just to brag and whine about it, lol), the death rules for the OC seem to be as lame as it was in NWN1 OC.

I tink the OC will be good. However, anyone hoping for long term post release support for NWN2 is fooling themselves. Obsidian may be willing to do so; but Atari won't likely be as they'll want to move on to their next big hit.

 

[Azarkon]

NWN 2 had a short development cycle for what it set out to achieve. I see that you want to keep bringing up BG 2. So let's see what BG 2 did, shall we?

* Used the Infinity Engine with minimal improvements
* Used practically the same gameplay and ruleset from BG 1
* Reused a bunch of the graphics from BG 1
* Had pretty much the same user interface
* Had no toolset
* Had no DM client
* Had no PW support

NWN 2, on the other hand, intended the following:

* Completely ditched the Aurora graphics engine
* Switched the whole game to 3.5 rules
* Cannot reuse virtually any graphics from NWN (due to new graphics engine)
* Completely redid the user interface
* Has significant online play
* Has a toolset
* Has a DM client
* Has PW support

I doubt that much of Bio's code base could be transferred over given the massive rewrites they had to do of the user interface, underlying rulesets, party dynamics, the way the world worked (no more tilesets), etc. That's why you can't simply port over the DM client and PW support, and it's obvious that the entire toolset had to be rewritten.

And ontop of that, Obsidian added a professional quality OC of 30-40 hours (supposedly, at least), which could not have reused anything from NWN. That alone, if NWN 2's graphics engine were just a bit prettier, could've counted as a triple A title.

"Oh, but BG was 200+ hours!"

Yeah, and BG was made back in the heydays of computer graphics. Look at Bio's more recent efforts (KOTOR and Jade Empire) for a more realistic gauge of what can be done in the market today with just three years.

So, in summary, don't discount what Obsidian tried to achieve until you see what they've actually achieved. Their ambitions were lofty, and way beyond what I would expect possible in three years. It remains to be seen what exactly they managed, but underplaying what they set out to do is just plain naive, imo.

 

[Volourn]

No matter how you slice it, 2-3 years is not a short dev cycle. MP hasn't been changed. The DMC hasn't been touched until most recently. There is no real PW support. Hedck, NWN1 was never made for PW support either.


"no more tilesets"

False. No more outdoor tilesets. Indoors there are still tilesets.


Bottom line is 2-3 years is not a short dev cycle. You can't compare it to BIO; because they seemingly always take their sweet time nad they're not your typical dev house either.

Yes, they're stuffing a lot into it; but toiugh pooie. That's what happens when you make a sequel that had all that stuff already. Also, remember, that BIO made the OC IN LESS THAN A YEAR (thoguh they had soem foundation for it previously), and they made SOU in like a month.

No matter how you slice it, 2-3 years is not short. It's not a super long dev cycle; but it's not short earlier.


"So, in summary, don't discount what Obsidian tried to achieve until you see what they've actually achieved."

How is saying NWN2 doesn't have a short dev cycle discount their hard work? It doesn't. in fact, Mr. U is the one who stated this. He point blank said it wasn't a short dev cycle.

Game over.

 

[bryce777]

I love it how everyone here is an expert on development cycles when they have not even programmed a line of code in their lives.

 

[Mefi]

I love it how everyone here is an expert on development cycles when they have not even programmed a line of code in their lives.

But when they've played marketing bunny for developers then they might have a clue, neh?

 

[Volourn]

"I love it how everyone here is an expert on development cycles when they have not even programmed a line of code in their lives"

Of course, i'm just basically repeating what Mr. U himself has stated. He is the one who said that NWN2 doesn't have a short dev cycle. He is the one who used BG2 as a comparison. Are you saying he 'doesn't have a clue' despite working in the field for 10+ years? You saying he doesn't know what is or isn't a short dev cycle?

LOLOLOLLIPOP

LMAO

 

[Azarkon]

The point is that they had a short dev cycle for they set out to do. Now, you haven't exactly countered much of my arguments, especially if you compare the NWN 2 project to the BG 2 project. BG 2 was done in three years? No surprise there - BG 2 did not have to rewrite the entire graphics engine from scratch. NWN 2, though?

Let's see:

MP hasn't been changed.

Of course it has. You don't expect NWN 2 to pop up NWN's net play interface, do you? I don't either. Sure, Obsidian might've reused some of Bio's net code, but we're talking about a much more advanced engine here. The network code would have to be changed in order to even allow net play.

There is no real PW support. Hedck, NWN1 was never made for PW support either.

Exactly. Neither had it, but people still whine about how NWN 2 is not supporting PW's?

False. No more outdoor tilesets. Indoors there are still tilesets.

A minor detail. The entire graphics engine has been rewritten, so they couldn't reuse NWN for either indoors or outdoors, regardless of whether they still use tilesets (and from all that I've seen, the NWN 2 graphics engine is FAR more advanced).

You can't compare it to BIO; because they seemingly always take their sweet time nad they're not your typical dev house either.

Why not? People are complaining about Obsidian in relation to Bio, last I checked.

Also, remember, that BIO made the OC IN LESS THAN A YEAR (thoguh they had soem foundation for it previously), and they made SOU in like a month.

Bio didn't make SOU by themselves. And the OC in NWN clearly sucked, so what's your point? Yeah, I'm sure Obsidian can churn out a craptastic OC in less than a year too - hell they churned out KOTOR II in just 18 monthes, didn't they? And KOTOR 2, I'm sure most people will agree, beats the NWN OC by a long shot, even if it's not as good as KOTOR.

How is saying NWN2 doesn't have a short dev cycle discount their hard work? It doesn't. in fact, Mr. U is the one who stated this. He point blank said it wasn't a short dev cycle.

Because the implication is that they had plenty of time to get it right, but didn't. I'm arguing that they had plenty of time - but not nearly enough to "get it right" if by getting it right you mean making NWN 2 with all the features of NWN plus a kickass OC plus a entire engine rewrite. There's a clear difference between the two. As far as Feargus goes, his vision of a complete game is not exactly what people who now complain about NWN 2's deficiencies recognize.

 

[obediah]

I love it how everyone here is an expert on development cycles when they have not even programmed a line of code in their lives.

It's cute when they speak as if a "short development cycle" is something that is measured purely in calender months.

Here's a hint. 4 hours is a generous window for a good java programmer to write a towers of hanoi game. On the other hand 10 years proved to be an unattainable window for several hundred programmers to build WinFS at Microsoft.

NWN is one of the most ambitous PC games ever from a programming standpoint. With Obsidian making so many changes, and not being the authors of the first game, I would expect a much longer development time than other recent sequals that leveraged more code, art, and experience from the first game. Then you need to consider the team sizes to see what this means in terms of calender time.

 

[Volourn]

I'll simply take Mr. U's word over you guys. Sorry; but I have a funny feeling he knows more about it then you do. he has made it clear that NWN2 did NOT have a short dev cycle.


"Bio didn't make SOU by themselves."

Sure, they did. BIO canned that other company, and redid the SOU OC by themselves.


" And the OC in NWN clearly sucked, so what's your point?"

Your opinion. An opinion drowned out by the majority of players (not the the overly vocal who think they speak for the majority).


"Yeah, I'm sure Obsidian can churn out a craptastic OC in less than a year too - hell they churned out KOTOR II in just 18 monthes, didn't they? And KOTOR 2, I'm sure most people will agree, beats the NWN OC by a long shot, even if it's not as good as KOTOR."

Nope. KOTOR series are both overrated. NWN OC is 75% while the KOTORs (both) are around 80% so no they don't beat it by a 'long shot'. Nice try though.


"Why not? People are complaining about Obsidian in relation to Bio, last I checked."

People can be stupid.


"A minor detail. The entire graphics engine has been rewritten, so they couldn't reuse NWN for either indoors or outdoors, regardless of whether they still use tilesets (and from all that I've seen, the NWN 2 graphics engine is FAR more advanced)."

First off, I'm not disputing the FACt that NWN2 graphics are far superior than NWN1. However, the fact that you know so very little about it to mistake that NWN2 doesn't use tilesets at all shows how you little your opinion on this issue cna be worth.


"Exactly. Neither had it, but people still whine about how NWN 2 is not supporting PW's?"

People can be stupid.


"Of course it has. You don't expect NWN 2 to pop up NWN's net play interface, do you? I don't either. Sure, Obsidian might've reused some of Bio's net code, but we're talking about a much more advanced engine here. The network code would have to be changed in order to even allow net play."

Obsidian has not spent much time on this. There's a reason why the reccommened umber of players in MP is still capped at around 64 and that they reccommend LESS areas for on line play.


Bottom line, peeps, is Mr. U himself has stated that NWN2 does not have a short dev cycle. His word on the issue > yours (or mine).

 

[Azarkon]

You mean the same Mr. U that stated that the OC would be 20 hours?

No, Volourn, I don't think Mr. U is as knowedgeable about the game's development as you think he is, or rather he might be knowledgeable, but that's not to say that he's going to share that knowledge. Undoubtedly he can find out easier than we by asking his co-workers, but he also has to deal with company PR. He's not going to say something like "oh NWN 2 has a short dev cycle" and give off the impression that the game's rushed, at least not *before* the game's released.

That simple fact makes any of his assertions questionable. Truth is, you can't expect any Obsidian employee to come forth and say that the game's rushed. To do that undermines both their own company and their relationship with Atari. If Troika is of any indication - blaming the publisher isn't conducive to a company's ability to function in this market. If you can't see this, well then, have fun believing everything you hear from devs.

 

[Volourn]

"You mean the same Mr. U that stated that the OC would be 20 hours? "

Ha. Of course, he supposedly said that in a German mag that was translated her on the Codex - home of the 'accurate' and 'fair'... The same site that has a thread deddicated to a rumour in the news section.


"No, Volourn, I don't think Mr. U is as knowedgeable about the game's development as you think he is, or rather he might be knowledgeable, but that's not to say that he's going to share that knowledge. Undoubtedly he can find out easier than we by asking his co-workers, but he also has to deal with company PR. He's not going to say something like "oh NWN 2 has a short dev cycle" and give off the impression that the game's rushed, at least not *before* the game's released.

That simple fact makes any of his assertions questionable. Truth is, you can't expect any Obsidian employee to come forth and say that the game's rushed. To do that undermines both their own company and their relationship with Atari. If Troika is of any indication - blaming the publisher isn't conducive to a company's ability to function in this market."

All true, more or less. Still. 2-3 years dev cycle, comparable to BG2 which was a rather large game (which, btw, did update the graphics engine from BG1 thoygh nowhere near the level of NWN from NWN1), the boss syaing it's not short is a good indication that this wasn'ta short dev cycle.

Don't forget that Atari has already given Obsidian one extension so it's not like they haven't been given any time to work on the game.

Still. Obsidian boss > random posters on net


Sorry, it's the hard knock truth.

P.S. If you don't believe him why do you believe him when he says the game will be good (which it will be)? Selective believing, I guess...

 

[Azarkon]

I don't believe that the game will be good. I think it might be, based on the talent on the team (ie people like MCA, who has a proven record) and the screenshots that's been released so far, but I'm only cautiously optimistic. If the game flops, well, that's completely within the realm of possibility.

I just wanted to point out that the game's far more ambitious than people on the bio boards would have you believe. To them, NWN 2 is just NWN with prettier graphics and a better OC (which they consider worthless; the fools) - how hard can it be? From my own experiences in software development - very hard.

 

[Volourn]

"I don't believe that the game will be good."

Oh. Ok then. I think it will be. Not perfect; but good. Eeven great. I'd be dissapointed if the OC is only as good as the KOTORs or the NWN1 OC. I'm expecting better than that.


"I think it might be, based on the talent on the team (ie people like MCA, who has a proven record) and the screenshots that's been released so far, but I'm only cautiously optimistic. If the game flops, well, that's completely within the realm of possibility."

The game won't flop. Not sales wise, anyways. That's why I think Atari's reasoning here is silly. NWN1 is not a threat to NWN2 - horses or no.


"I just wanted to point out that the game's far more ambitious than people on the bio boards would have you believe. To them, NWN 2 is just NWN with prettier graphics and a better OC (which they consider worthless; the fools) - how hard can it be?

Oh, come on. Do you really take those people seriously? I certainly don't, and the majority of the NWN1-NWN2 fanbase (which is basiclaly the same) don't either. NWN series is about the total package. It's one of the things that makes it special (unless one hates them; but meh). Just ignore them.



"From my own experiences in software development - very hard."

Oh. I don't doubt it's hard. in fact, I believe it is. Heck, I've learned this the hard way with my attempt in trying to finish my module. It's far from simple. Not to mention my failure at the FO mod as well, and there I was part of a 'team'.

But saying it's hard or challenging is different than justa dmitting that NWN2 doesn't have a short dev cycle. 2-3 years is far from short. 1 year to 18 months can be considered short. But 2-3 years; the history says other wise. It's not a LONG dev cycle; but it's not short either.


:D

 

[Azarkon]

Well, I'm hoping for the best, regardless. That, I think, we can all agree on.

 

[Volourn]

Absolutely.

I would LOVE to be proven wrong about NWN2's post release support. Beleive me, I most certainly would. But, Atari (who I have oftend defended in the past) don't enspire much confidence anymore.

 

[bryce777]

"Mr. U." Has a vested interest in making it seem like the game is not rushed. Obviously.

 

[bryce777]

I love it how everyone here is an expert on development cycles when they have not even programmed a line of code in their lives.

It's cute when they speak as if a "short development cycle" is something that is measured purely in calender months.

Here's a hint. 4 hours is a generous window for a good java programmer to write a towers of hanoi game. On the other hand 10 years proved to be an unattainable window for several hundred programmers to build WinFS at Microsoft.

NWN is one of the most ambitous PC games ever from a programming standpoint. With Obsidian making so many changes, and not being the authors of the first game, I would expect a much longer development time than other recent sequals that leveraged more code, art, and experience from the first game. Then you need to consider the team sizes to see what this means in terms of calender time.

Yeah I mean, really, I would have to think about it and know what all they are trying to do better but it sounds like they are doing this thing from scratch and programmingwise doing an awful lot. This is not the same as BG II compared to I. It just kills me to see people who have no idea what they are talking about make such sweeping statements when they don't know thing one about an extremely complicated topic.

As for Microsoft, well, they just suck for starters. The programmers at pretty much ANY really big company tend to really suck. Basically you get into a sort of inertia where you spend 80% of your time spinning your wheels and when you actually are programming that other 20%, you have 1/5 the real programming experience to draw on. I am in that situation now, and I can almost FEEL my programming skills atrophying.

 

[Llyranor]

The main concern I think would be post-release support and the community.

In terms of the product itself being rushed, I'm not too worried. The story/writing has already been done for a while now, so there won't be missing bits (hopefully). Also, they've already received an extended deadline (from ?July to Sept).

The main lesson for Obs is to focus on singleplayer games. If what Bio claims about the mp/toolset popularition being marginal at best, then it's pretty inefficient to make a game consisting of so much content. If Bio is right, then NWN2 isn't going to make much more money out of the toolset/DM client/mp than it would have otherwise with just the campaign. Given how the online custom content community (or a meager insignificant portion, anyway) is already biting Obs before the game is even out, they're just setting themselves up for getting the shaft when no one else wants to cater to them anymore in the future.

'lol we'll stick to NWN, then switch to DA!!!' is simply BS. Bio has already stated that priorities for DA will be pretty 'BG-like', as opposed to allowing accessible community content. Maybe the 'toolset' will be more powerful, but Bio has already stated that making it accessible isn't the focus.

 

[Dhruin]

One could interpret this comment to mean "we've had to cut content because time is running out" - and not just horses, but something that changes the length, such as some locations:

The length of NWN2 (whatever its true hours wind up being) has very recently been modified based on what is an acceptable level of quality for Obsidian.

Of course, you could read it positively - "every area in NWN2 is finished, unlike KotOR2". Anyway, 3 years is a pretty normal development time but I think they either had too many features or mismanaged earlier parts of the development, and now they are having to rationalise. Doesn't prove anything one way or the other but I intend to be cautious and see what others say when it is released.

 

[Mefi]

To me, that translates as "we've cut stuff because it won't be ready in time and it would show if we left it in". Which implies fairly substantial cuts to locations as Dhruin suggests as one of his possible explanations.

The full quote is a little more demonstrative of that:

The length of NWN2 (whatever its true hours wind up being) has very recently been modified based on what is an acceptable level of quality for Obsidian. That is, we want to make certain that every area that goes into the finished game has a high level of quality from art and design and that every area has a healthy amount of testing.

And we are very aware of how gamers received the end of KotOR2.

If he's referencing Kotor 2's ending then it's cuts of content that impinge on how the game plays out or that sentence would make no sense in relation to the first paragraph.

As bryce and obediah have said it's not that 3 years is to short per se. But I truly believe that it is short for this game. I disagree with obediah slightly because I think rough but meaningful comparisons can be made with similar standards of games (in terms of production values and funding) which is why I compared NWN 2 with other games which I believe are trying similar things in those terms and which all have an extra year up front. And I think that this is starting to be borne out.

Every project goes crazy near deadlines and there is never enough time. But I think they've shot themselves in the foot by not getting enough time at the start of the project. (Shades of Troika although from the comment above it does seem that the cuts will be substantial enough to allow them to test properly).

Can I just check something - there already has been an extension? Of 3 months? When was it granted? Anyone know?

 

[Volourn]

"Can I just check something - there already has been an extension? Of 3 months? When was it granted? Anyone know?"

Game was scheduled to be out sometime in the actual Summer (May to July). As we all know now, the schedueld actual release date is September 19.

I don't think anyone (but obsidian and Atari) knows exactly when the extension was given.

It should be pointed out, however, like most games no official confirmed due date was actually set before the Sepetmber 19 one so while there was an extension; the release date (the one shared to the public) wasn't technically pushed back...

 

[Mefi]

Thanks Vol. Bit bored tonight so I'm trying to take backbearings on the mysterious case of NWN2 and teh cutz ov Dhoom!

Was going to put down some thoughts but decided they need to be worded very precisely on this forum :D

 

[aboyd]

Can I just check something - there already has been an extension? Of 3 months? When was it granted? Anyone know?

If it just got an extension of 3 months, then that's the 2nd extension. At least. KotOR 2 and NWN 2 were both brewing* at the same time and were initially talked about as having 18 month development times. Then when they saw what 18 months did to KotOR 2, they (I guess) extended the deadline. I didn't actually read that they extended the deadline, I just know that if they had stuck with the 18 month cycle, NWN 2 would have been out soon after KotOR 2. And of course, it wasn't.

-Tony

* I'll leave "brewing" undefined -- I only know that articles came out for both games at the same time and that Obsidian reps were talking about the work they were doing on both games.

 

[Volourn]

NWN2 was always supposed to have a longer dev cycle that KOTOR2. Nor was it supposed to come out at about the same time either.