Official Codex Discord Server

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
    Dismiss Notice

KickStarter Phoenix Point - the new game from X-COM creator Julian Gollop

Discussion in 'Tactical Gaming' started by Infinitron, Mar 18, 2016.

  1. Yaar Podshipnik Arcane Patron

    Yaar Podshipnik
    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2011
    Messages:
    2,046
    Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
    The more I play PP, the more glaring is the fact that this is not a finished game, and that people making it don't really care much about it. Compare and contrast to Xenonauts 2, which is not released yet and looks better already.
    • both games have plenty of art that looks placeholder - except X2 is not released yet, and those placeholders are clearly labeled as such
    • both games don't allow you to rebind controls
    • PP gives better indication of whether you're in cover or not, ala nuxcom. In X2 you have to judge this by yourself. imo PP is better in this regard, it's nice QOL.
    • Both games have nice, rotatable 3d maps and soldiers
    • you can't zoom in X2, which is a shame, as the art looks nice (but that prob saves the devs for having to do too much details). You can zoom in PP but why would you, everything is so fucking hideous.
    • PP is nuxcom style AP, X2 is good old ufo:eu style
    • PP displays nicely on the ground how far you can move and still fire, this is a very nice QOL feature that X2 lacks
    • PP also indicates at which enemies you will be able to shoot at from your destination. Another QOL that should be implemented in x2
    • you can deploy way more soldiers in x2, so the whole thing feels more like ufo:eu meat grinder
    • you can move multiple soldiers at a time in x2, while in PP you have to wait for the movement animation to finish before you do anything with another soldier
    • maps in x2 feel much bigger than in pp
    • no direct-fire (VATS-style) in X2
    • in X2 you have your familiar research tree progression, while in PP it seems you're stuck at same level forever, and only get lots new research when you ally with a faction
    • PP aliens are quite original, x2 not so much
    So, tl;dr X2 lacks some really nice QOL features, but feels more polished and labour-of-love than PP. PP is more to the riff of nuxcom, while X2 is firmly ufo:eu thing. PP is hidious, X2 looks very nice and stylised. Here's a brief let's play of 1st mission in X2, so you can see some art:
    Show Spoiler

    Mind, I love tactical games but I really suck at them.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Whole thing on imgur: https://imgur.com/a/CvB8Bnw
    Show Spoiler
     
    • Brofist x 10
    • Informative x 3
    • Disagree x 2
    • Merry Christmas! x 1
    • FAKE NEWS x 1
    • what? x 1
    • Balanced x 1
    ^ Top  
  2. Falksi Arcane

    Falksi
    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2017
    Messages:
    4,240
    Location:
    Nottingham
    Sounds like I'll wait until they release an expansion in a year or so which actually makes it a full game worth playing.
     
    • Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas! x 1
    • Yes Yes x 1
    • Fabulously Optimistic Fabulously Optimistic x 1
    ^ Top  
  3. Spockrock Augur

    Spockrock
    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2011
    Messages:
    416
    some people in this thread are either delusional or just don't care about XCom in general.

    if you need to scratch that XCom itch, PP is absolutely worth playing. it's not a bad game, it's just not much better than XCom Apocalypse, when it should be. this should have been the true XCom 4 -- the Dreamland Chronicles we never got, but it seems Gollop decided to play it safe and instead focus on making a solid basic multiplatform XCom game first. if this game does well, I'm sure he will make an expansion or a sequel that takes chances with basic concepts.

    personally, I think this game is better than the two Firaxis games, and it's better than Xenonauts, FWIW.
     
    • Agree x 2
    • Informative x 2
    • Brofist x 1
    • Merry Christmas! x 1
    • Interesting x 1
    • Fabulously Optimistic x 1
    • retadred x 1
    ^ Top  
  4. Yaar Podshipnik Arcane Patron

    Yaar Podshipnik
    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2011
    Messages:
    2,046
    Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
    I'm not saying the game is bad (read my long post earlier in the thread). I'm saying this game feels unpolished and incomplete. It's certainly fun to play (so far), with my biggest gripe being not with the mechanics but with UI and art style (not the quality of the execution of the style, the style itself). Gameplay trumps graphics, and gameplay in PP is quite nice, X-Com 1 from firaxis on release level.
     
    • Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas! x 1
    ^ Top  
  5. ArchAngel Arcane

    ArchAngel
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2015
    Messages:
    12,712
    You are wrong in some of these points.
    It is not placeholder, it is just kind of ugly.

    Not true. PP uses same system as old UFO, it is just that all actions are put into groups of 25%, 50%, 75% and 100% of your max TU. Old UFO has a bit more variation and you could have 40% and similar kind of actions. I don't see this as a problem, it makes it more usable for new players while still allowing free movement and other stuff.
    You get some new items that you can research from your own tree like grenades and shotguns. Maybe more later.
     
    • Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas! x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  6. Trash Player Learned

    Trash Player
    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2015
    Messages:
    287
    This is a very misleading statement. PP has a more fluid action economy than XCOM's essentially move-and-attack one but isn't really a simulationist system like the UFOs and the cargo cults are.
    You use superhero powers to gain extra actions and such afterall.
     
    • Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas! x 1
    ^ Top  
  7. Grampy_Bone Magister

    Grampy_Bone
    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Messages:
    1,919
    Location:
    Wandering the world randomly in search of maps
    Pretty much every game nowadays has the last 20-30% shaved off and packaged as DLC. It's the stupid "Minimum Viable Product" consultant culture.

    Doesn't make it defensible but that's how it is.
     
    • Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas! x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  8. Black Arcane

    Black
    Joined:
    May 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,868,843
    Why would they, they already got both the Fig and Epic money.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas! x 1
    ^ Top  
  9. Galdred Studio Draconis Patron Developer

    Galdred
    Joined:
    May 6, 2011
    Messages:
    2,904
    Location:
    Middle Empire
    I doubt it is enough for retirement.
     
    • Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas! x 1
    ^ Top  
  10. Alienman Arcane Patron

    Alienman
    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2014
    Messages:
    10,147
    Location:
    Mars
    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
    Maybe if you retire Saddam style in a hole.
     
    • Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas! x 2
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • incline incline x 1
    ^ Top  
  11. PhantasmaNL Arcane Patron

    PhantasmaNL
    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    1,552
    PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria
     
    • Brofist x 4
    • Disagree x 2
    • Informative x 2
    • Merry Christmas! x 1
    • Funny x 1
    • WTF am I reading x 1
    ^ Top  
  12. ArchAngel Arcane

    ArchAngel
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2015
    Messages:
    12,712
    Perks that give you abilities on top of everything is another layer and nothing to do with base TU system. Perks also cost Willpower which is a new think in PP (new for both Xcoms).
     
    • Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas! x 1
    ^ Top  
  13. fantadomat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Edgy

    fantadomat
    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2017
    Messages:
    19,976
    Location:
    Bulgaria
    From what i have seen the game is fine.
     
    • Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas! x 3
    • Funny Funny x 1
    ^ Top  
  14. DeepOcean Arcane

    DeepOcean
    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2012
    Messages:
    5,807
    There are a few things I heard so far that I like, multiple bases, faction choices, enemies just don't wait for you forever, multiple squads per map, you actually need to load ammunition and guns on your dudes, so far, this seems like an attempt of fixing the worst popamole weaknesses of XCOM without completely going 100% homage like Xenonauts. The bad stuff seems like bugs, repetitive maps and lack of content but this can be fixed with time. Seems like a solid base for a decent X-COM clone that after a few patches and the directors cut edition will become decent enough to play.

    Yeah, it is a glitchy, bug ridden X-COM clone that will be fixed and seems to be decent enough but what I'm really wanna know is why should I play this? I mean, sure, they took Firaxis XCOM and turn it somewhat less popamole, that is something, but how isn't this just another X-COM clone? Is this just a total conversion mod for XCOM? I mean, I was excited as fuck as I followed this game on the begining, read all the short stories (really well written by the way) and got excited by how they described the thing being a desperate struggle to fight against a Cuthulu alien virus, the game seemed like a horror themed desperate struggle against the unknown.

    Last time I was truly terrified with a X-COM game was with Terror from the Deep and I wanted that again, this seemed so cool with enemies coming from the ocean and you having to both defend on land and eventually hit places on the ocean floor with enemies that mutated on a creepy way to match your skills and guns but then things deteriorated and in the end the game looked more and more like a XCOM total conversion . I mean, I know the argument of people that are desperate for more XCOM games but I'm not that impressed after Open X-COM, Xenonauts, Firaxis XCOM and other clones. I expected a X-COM inspired game with something unique not just a total conversion with improved mechanics for Firaxis XCOM.

    How is the campaign progression of this game? Does it get anywhere near to what was promised on kickstarter?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • :M :M x 1
    ^ Top  
  15. Grampy_Bone Magister

    Grampy_Bone
    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Messages:
    1,919
    Location:
    Wandering the world randomly in search of maps
    Dude sounds like a whiner.

    Couple valid points--
    -Bad tutorial - I agree, the tutorial has you doing dumb things like intentionally taking fire so it can show you how to use med packs.
    -Unwinnable missions - agree, this is frustrating and should be fixed
    -Crashes and bugs. I haven't seen them but that sucks.

    Retarded idiocy:
    -My guy got shot and can't fight anymore - welcome to xcom. Don't get shot
    -Enemies have mind control - welcome to xcom. kill those guys asap
    -Wah my dudes are generic with no tragic backstory or romance options wah wah wah - welcome to xcom, don't get attached to anyone

    Potential valid complaints:
    -slow animations. Fixable
    -Lack of high-end research. He didn't play all the way but it does look like they cut some high end weapons to make them DLC, which is lame

    Verdict: git gud, welcome to xcom.
     
    • Brofist x 4
    • retadred x 2
    • Funny x 1
    • rolleyes x 1
    • Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  16. ArchAngel Arcane

    ArchAngel
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2015
    Messages:
    12,712
    Eh I got into easy raid area for resources mission vs aliens and I lose two guys.. Fucking Crab man showed up with super heavy armor and headcrabs managed to jump on two of my men.
    This was a B team and didn't have good items yet. Also the game fucked me with wrong description, I took the perk that says PDW weapons get +20 damage but idiots meant +20%.. so I was surprised that I could not do shit vs 30 armor :(

    Now I am switching back to pistols and snipers..
     
    ^ Top  
  17. geno Learned

    geno
    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2018
    Messages:
    139
    Location:
    Spain
    I accidentally discovered a cheap way to earn exp for 1 soldier. If you load a ship just with a vehicle and one unit and you get ambushed while exploring, just enter the vehicle with your unit and finish the mission: my solider gained 4 levels in a single mission with this trick. Probaly it will fixed in the next patch.
     
    ^ Top  
  18. ArchAngel Arcane

    ArchAngel
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2015
    Messages:
    12,712
    It is not a bug, since vehicle cannot get XP it gives its XP to other soldiers. So mission XP is shared between 3 guys only.
     
    ^ Top  
  19. Cyberarmy Love fool Patron

    Cyberarmy
    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2013
    Messages:
    5,620
    Location:
    Smyrna - Scalanouva
    Divinity: Original Sin 2
    This is a fucking proper nu XCom but good lord it also got shitload of problems. Feels unfinished, like most of them KS games...

    -Bugs everywhere, seriously. One of my best soldiers got disseapeared while on plane.
    -Game looks ugly and non-aesthetic in style, UI is even uglier and a mess.
    -No time units :/

    I really want to play this but gonna wait for some patches first.
     
    ^ Top  
  20. ArchAngel Arcane

    ArchAngel
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2015
    Messages:
    12,712
    There are bugs yes. Aesthetics are not great, especially that PP heavy, UI lacks important stuff.
    But no time units is not true. It is just presented more intelligently. I am getting tired explaining this.

    In UFO all weapon attacks didn't cost 45 TU or 55 TU or whatever. They cost 40% of max TU or 75% of max TU. PP has separated this 100% TU into 4 points, each represents 25% of max TU. Amount of movement you can do is still free form. Your speed attribute says how much squares you can move in one turn by spending 100% TU and you are free to move one square at a time if you want to.
    They also changed all actions to cost 25%, 50%, 75% or 100% of your max TU. That is only true difference vs UFO. And it is a good one. Old school players get almost same system while new players and nuXcom players get easier to understand system.

    Biggest change compared to UFO is addition of perks but them and free multiclassing lets you make interesting character builds, I like it so far. And soldiers don't feel as superhuman as in Firaxis's Xcom. Dash is probably the biggest outlier from perks and should probably be limited to once per turn.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019
    • Brofist Brofist x 7
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    ^ Top  
  21. ArchAngel Arcane

    ArchAngel
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2015
    Messages:
    12,712
    Btw, nuXcom twitch streamers are all little cunts.
    There are two classes of them: whiners and quitters.
    Whiners whine about little things like half spent ammo clips gathering in inventory until they become full clips again but they don't want to wait for that so they scrap them all one by one and then whine how the game has too much micromanagement.

    Quitters are even more retarded. They found a trick to play more efficiently on highest difficulty. They build one set of armor and weapons at start but get additional craft and troops. Then they move items around before mission starts between two teams because Gollop was kind enough to allow equipment teleportation (otherwise newXcom players brains would blow up). But this plan is foiled by Ambush missions which don't let you equip your guys before missions by going back to strip armor and weapons off other team. So now they swap around armor and weapons before each Exploration is done and then complain endlessly how irritating it is and eventually quit the game...

    The amount of butt hurt this game provides to nuXcom players is already enough to justify its existence.
     
    • Brofist x 3
    • Funny x 2
    • Agree x 2
    • Informative x 2
    • Acknowledge this user's Agenda x 1
    • Friendly x 1
    ^ Top  
  22. Thal Arbiter

    Thal
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2015
    Messages:
    275
    I think this is actually what Tim Cain meant, when he said that stats could be represented as graphs instead of numbers. The presentation fools casuals into accepting more a complex system because their bird brains can only process simplified information. PPs system works almost exactly like the UFOs. The visual aids make the information pop out more easily, but it has very little effect on the depth of the system. The real mystery is how it can fool hardcore gamers into believing that they are playing a simpler game than they are. The one casualization is that weapons have only one attack type, whereas in UFO you could in some cases choose more than one. However this is balanced by a large increase in the variety of weapons.

    For quick reference:
    Pistols can only do snap shots, 1-4 depending on how far you move
    Assault rifles can only do auto shots, 1-2 depending how far you move
    Sniper Rifles and Heavy Weapons can only take 1 aimed shot and move a short distance.

    I've been playing this game for a few days and I'm having a blast. Even with the second easiest difficulty level my soldiers get killed if lose my focus. Even the basic crabman is a tough opponent in the right circumstances. I'm constantly having to trade raw materials and can't manufacture everything I want. I can't capture pandorans effectively yet because apparently only Synedrion has stun weapons, but I allied New Jericho for their AP tech. The Pandorans actually took out my first base, because I put off attacking their citadel so I could research better weapons. Yeah the art style is uneven, but my first encounter with a Siren left half of my squad dead because I wasn't prepared to face one yet. That's the one thing that matters in a X-com game, not how a specific monster looks. I reiterate: UFO had anime graphics.

    The game is a flawed diamond. So what it has bugs on release? So did Fallout. They cut some features, what game hasn't and backers get the DLCs for free anyway? As for the epic money. Isn't it odd to laugh at the devs for releasing an incomplete game and criticizing them for taking the dough at the same time. It seems obvious that without the Epic money they could not have even finished the game. Now they have, and the result is solid turn-based tactics game.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019
    • Brofist Brofist x 10
    • Cheers!! Cheers!! x 1
    ^ Top  
  23. ArchAngel Arcane

    ArchAngel
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2015
    Messages:
    12,712
    You also have stun weapons, you just have not researched it yet.
     
    • Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas! x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    ^ Top  
  24. Alpharius Educated

    Alpharius
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2018
    Messages:
    98
    They've done fucked this up though. You have to manually check each soldiers ammunition after each mission, otherwise he might run out of ammo next time he shoots someone. Also the "+ammo" button in personnel tab replaces the currently loaded clip with the one that has more ammo, not necessarily with the full clip. So i often had to press dat button until i had enough full clips for each weapon and then scrap each partially filled clip. (New ammo is manufactured instantly for weapons that you have already researched). Now if they've added "auto refill ammo", "auto manufacture ammo" toggles and a global counter for each ammo type that would have been a cool feature. As it is it just adds unnecessary micro.

    Same with multiple squads per map. It worked perfectly fine in xenonauts and UFO but here the game doesn't pause or notify you in any way when one of the aircraft is idle. Because ofc how would the game know if you left the aircraft without orders because you intend for it to wait for soldiers to rest \ new weapon to be manufactured \ scan be to completed \ whatever, or just because you forgot about it. So even with two active aircraft i find i have to constantly pause the game and check what each one is doing right now. I expect with 4 active aircraft i won't be able to overcome the urge to uninstall the game.
    The fix would have been to not reinvent the wheel and keep the old system from UFO: make the aircraft refuel only at phoenix point base, not at any point of the map, and rebalance travel times. Remove the possibility for aircraft to be idle by accident while no at the base, it should either be travelling towards next mission, returning to base, being busy with current mission, or patrolling given point of the map after being explicitly ordered to do so by the player (there is no reason to do this right now but it might change if\when they add enemy aircraft).
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    • retadred retadred x 1
    ^ Top  
  25. ArchAngel Arcane

    ArchAngel
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2015
    Messages:
    12,712
    Haha you are one of those whiners I talked about previously. YOu don't need to scrap clips, they stack up in inventory and become full eventually. Just press that ammo++ button twice before new missions. And if you are too low on resources for that you got bigger problems. Ammo for grenade launcher is only costly ammo.

    But I do agree with you about having multiple aircraft, they need to fix that one.
    EDIT: Although idle aircraft is not my main problem, it is that game unpauses immediately when you give order to any aircraft. So you need to pause it manually each time to go give orders to next aircraft..
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019
    • Brofist Brofist x 3
    • Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas! x 1
    ^ Top  

(buying stuff via the above buttons helps us pay the hosting bills, thanks!)